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Region 2 (Europe) Blu-Ray - Are they 24fps or 25fps?

post #1 of 29
3/8/07 at 3:55am
Thread Starter 
Simply question really. DVDs in England are played 4% faster at 25fps, as opposed to 24fps. All audio is speeded up and then encoded as AC3, etc.

Is it the same deal with Blu-Ray?

Thanks.
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post #2 of 29
3/8/07 at 4:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd2012 View Post

No. All titles are encoded as 1080p24.

that I did not know

-Gary
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post #3 of 29
3/8/07 at 8:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd2012 View Post

No. All titles are encoded as 1080p24.

If this is true then that is very good news. However if find it hard to believe. Do you actually have a Region 2 disc? Or are you just saying what you have heard?

In Europe we use crappy PAL. Most TVs won't even accept a 60Hz signal, only 50Hz. So how then will the Blu-Ray player play 24fps at 50Hz? Of course a modern Plasma or LCD TV with HDMI will take in a pure 1080p24 signal, but most TVs will not.

Also is it 24fps or 23.976?

Thanks.
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post #4 of 29
3/8/07 at 8:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd2012 View Post

NIN: BYIT (USA) - 1080p30

Sorry but what is NIN BYIT???
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post #5 of 29
3/8/07 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leica View Post

If this is true then that is very good news. However if find it hard to believe. Do you actually have a Region 2 disc? Or are you just saying what you have heard?

In Europe we use crappy PAL. Most TVs won't even accept a 60Hz signal, only 50Hz. So how then will the Blu-Ray player play 24fps at 50Hz? Of course a modern Plasma or LCD TV with HDMI will take in a pure 1080p24 signal, but most TVs will not.

Also is it 24fps or 23.976?

Thanks.

Most TV's in Europe accepts of course 60hz signal! Where have you been the last 10 years? (just kidding) But really, 10 years ago you might have been right. But not now. I've never seen a (even standard resolution) TV from as far back as 7 or 8 years that won't accept 60hz.

And more importantly since BD is an HD medium: The HD Ready standard that European HD TV models follow demands as a minimum 720p and 1080i signal input at 50 and 60hz, (and a screen at with at least 720 lines of resolution).

So, why would you use an (very) old standard resolution TV along with a blu-ray player anyway??

I have quite a few European BD discs now - and they are all encoded at 1080p24 but they play back at 1080p 60hz on my European Panasonic BD player. No problem.

(And PAL is not crappy, it has actually a larger resolution (576 lines) than NTSC
(480 lines). But that's not the issue here ).
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post #6 of 29
3/8/07 at 2:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd2012 View Post

You have to remember, that HD is neither NTSC or PAL.

True, BUT sadly they are still different. The resolution is the same 1920x1080 for 1080i and 1280x720 for 720p. HOWEVER the frame/field rate is 60Hz for USA/Japan and horrible and sickening 50Hz for Europe, Australia, etc. Very sad that they did not take this opportunity (the move to HDTV) and move to ONE global standard of 59.94Hz.
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post #7 of 29
3/8/07 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leica View Post

In Europe we use crappy PAL. Most TVs won't even accept a 60Hz signal, only 50Hz. So how then will the Blu-Ray player play 24fps at 50Hz? Of course a modern Plasma or LCD TV with HDMI will take in a pure 1080p24 signal, but most TVs will not.

Crappy PAL?
Its the superior system, it is better then NTSC
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post #8 of 29
3/8/07 at 3:45pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by little_donkey View Post

Crappy PAL?
Its the superior system, it is better then NTSC

For Standard Def it is debatable. PAL has higher resolution 720x576 vs NTSC 720x480 and better colour, but lower frame rate 50Hz vs 60Hz for NTSC.

For High Def color is irrelivant and the resolution is the same. But frame rate is 20% lower! So why is PAL better for HD???
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post #9 of 29
3/8/07 at 6:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd2012 View Post

IIRC, Blu-ray doesn't even have a spec for 1080p25, so they couldn't encode as that if they wanted to.

But couldn't they encode it as 1080p/25 and flag it as 50i, similar to the 30p/60i configuration on the NIN disc?

I know they don't do that, but I think it is possible.
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post #10 of 29
3/8/07 at 7:24pm
the lower frame rate is better for film based sources if you have a display capable of 50 hz. No 3/2 judder. it is 4% faster though.
I have the PAL LOTR EEs and they look better than the NTSC's. Pitch corrected too.

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post #11 of 29
3/8/07 at 7:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gekkou View Post

But couldn't they encode it as 1080p/25 and flag it as 50i, similar to the 30p/60i configuration on the NIN disc?

I know they don't do that, but I think it is possible.

25fps sucks as film has to be sped up. That is why they did away with it. Blu-ray supports 50i for video content only.

Now there is no PAL or NTSC in HD. HD is HD. Technically DVD's are not PAL or NTSC either. They are 720x576 50Hz or 720x480 60Hz. PAL and NTSC are strictly names for analog composite video.
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post #12 of 29
3/8/07 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leica View Post

For Standard Def it is debatable. PAL has higher resolution 720x576 vs NTSC 720x480 and better colour, but lower frame rate 50Hz vs 60Hz for NTSC.

For High Def color is irrelivant and the resolution is the same. But frame rate is 20% lower! So why is PAL better for HD???

60Hz HD is superior to 50Hz HD in every way. 60Hz captures motion much better with more pixels, plus with the new 24Hz capable displays, movies can be played at 72Hz eliminating all the judder. 25Hz speed up however can't be removed.
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post #13 of 29
3/8/07 at 10:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNA View Post

25fps sucks as film has to be sped up. That is why they did away with it. Blu-ray supports 50i for video content only.

Now there is no PAL or NTSC in HD. HD is HD. Technically DVD's are not PAL or NTSC either. They are 720x576 50Hz or 720x480 60Hz. PAL and NTSC are strictly names for analog composite video.

Oh I know, I was just referring to the claim that 25p can't be done on BD.
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post #14 of 29
3/9/07 at 3:50am
Thread Starter 
If Blu-Ray supports 50i then there is nothing that can prevent movie studios from speeding up moves to 25fps and encoding then as 50i. I Just hope that they never do this and from the sounds of the replies in the post it seems that they are not. Thank God.

BTW anyone know about HD-DVD. Same deal or 25fps?

Another question. The excellent BBC Series "Planet Earth" is coming to Blu-Ray. This was shot on HD at 25p (progressive) and broadcast here in England in HD at 25p.

Now when it is available in the USA, will it be slowed down to 24fps? Or will it be interpolated to 24fps? Or will it stay at 25fps and hope that American TVs can handle 25p/50i???

All the three options are bad and show my frustation at why Europe did not go for 24p and 60i for HDTV (like US/Japan) instead of crappy 25p/50i.

And what about American video shot at 60Hz? Will it be shown at 60Hz here in Europe or interpolated to 50Hz (like it is done with DVDs). Interpolation is nasty and causes jerky video and loses resolution.
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post #15 of 29
3/9/07 at 6:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leica View Post

If Blu-Ray supports 50i then there is nothing that can prevent movie studios from speeding up moves to 25fps and encoding then as 50i. I Just hope that they never do this and from the sounds of the replies in the post it seems that they are not. Thank God.

BTW anyone know about HD-DVD. Same deal or 25fps?

Another question. The excellent BBC Series "Planet Earth" is coming to Blu-Ray. This was shot on HD at 25p (progressive) and broadcast here in England in HD at 25p.

Now when it is available in the USA, will it be slowed down to 24fps? Or will it be interpolated to 24fps? Or will it stay at 25fps and hope that American TVs can handle 25p/50i???

All the three options are bad and show my frustation at why Europe did not go for 24p and 60i for HDTV (like US/Japan) instead of crappy 25p/50i.

And what about American video shot at 60Hz? Will it be shown at 60Hz here in Europe or interpolated to 50Hz (like it is done with DVDs). Interpolation is nasty and causes jerky video and loses resolution.

That is good question as far a Planet Earth. I thought that most of it was shot on film at 24fps, but then again I have not looked into it.
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post #16 of 29
3/9/07 at 7:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNA View Post

That is good question as far a Planet Earth. I thought that most of it was shot on film at 24fps, but then again I have not looked into it.

I know it was shot on Panasonic HD. I am assuming it was shot in 25fps and not 24fps since it was broadcast in England at 25fps. Also since it is a British program it makes sense for them to choose their format of choice "25fps".
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post #17 of 29
3/9/07 at 5:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leica View Post

If Blu-Ray supports 50i then there is nothing that can prevent movie studios from speeding up moves to 25fps and encoding then as 50i. I Just hope that they never do this and from the sounds of the replies in the post it seems that they are not. Thank God.

BTW anyone know about HD-DVD. Same deal or 25fps?

HD DVD specification does not support 1080i 50hz now, but is underway. All tools for 50hz will be finalized by April. Toshiba Europe said they would release a firmware upgrade for that when (if) DVD Forum went for it as an option in the HD DVD standard later. This from a podcast interview with one European Toshiba HD DVD representatives I have downloaded. He also assured the listeners that no HD DVD content provider would release any content needing 50hz before DVD forum approved 50hz and such a upgrade was out for the European Toshiba models. He also said that most content in the first months after the European players release would be from film sources and that would be mastered in 1080p 24fps anyway.
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post #18 of 29
3/9/07 at 6:06pm
We just have hope they don't encode the audio in a weird way like Studio Canal did for the French Total Recall HD DVD. It's not enough of a problem to bother me but others couldn't stand it.
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post #19 of 29
3/10/07 at 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNA View Post

That is good question as far a Planet Earth. I thought that most of it was shot on film at 24fps, but then again I have not looked into it.

Planet Earth was shot on the following formats:
Varicam DVCPRO-HD
HDCAM (F900/F950 cameras)
Super 16mm film
3 perf 35mm film
4 perf 35mm film
4:4:4 hard disk recorders
High Speed digital recorders
Digtal SLRs (timelapse)

And I have probably missed a few.
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post #20 of 29
3/13/07 at 8:14am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalsafari View Post

Planet Earth was shot on the following formats:
Varicam DVCPRO-HD
HDCAM (F900/F950 cameras)
Super 16mm film
3 perf 35mm film
4 perf 35mm film
4:4:4 hard disk recorders
High Speed digital recorders
Digtal SLRs (timelapse)

And I have probably missed a few.

Thanks for the info. I thought it was Panasonic DVCPRO HD all the way, because there was a press release from Panasonic announcing in fanfare that it (Panasonic) had been selected by the BBC.

Do you know if they shot in 24fps or 25fps? I know that film is usually shot at 24fps , but both Sony HDCAM and Pansonic DVCPro HD can be shot at 25fps.
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post #21 of 29
3/13/07 at 12:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cocoon View Post

We just have hope they don't encode the audio in a weird way like Studio Canal did for the French Total Recall HD DVD. It's not enough of a problem to bother me but others couldn't stand it.

This is why I won't buy European version of US movies. Meanwhile, I am buying European release and didn't notice any issue. I will get my first Blu-Ray of a French movie (OSS117) this week and anxious to see if they did something weird with the audio.
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post #22 of 29
3/13/07 at 1:30pm
If you import a Euro BR, how do you play it back? Can you buy a Euro (region) BR player and have it work in the US?
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post #23 of 29
3/13/07 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted W View Post

If you import a Euro BR, how do you play it back? Can you buy a Euro (region) BR player and have it work in the US?


You have to be careful some will work on more than one region other will not. It is a case by case situation, you need to verify for each release.
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post #24 of 29
3/13/07 at 4:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolstoi View Post

You have to be careful some will work on more than one region other will not. It is a case by case situation, you need to verify for each release.

The best way to play both HD-DVD and BluRay would be on a PC with AnyDVD HD. Then HDCP, Region all other annoying restrictions would be irrelivant.
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post #25 of 29
2/7/09 at 7:41am
Swedish release of Righteous Kill on Blu-ray is encoded at 1080i50 (25FPS) and suffers from 4% speedup (96 minute feature compared to 101 minutes on US release). Is there a list of these 1080i50 Blu-rays somewhere? If not, we should start one.
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post #26 of 29
2/7/09 at 8:23am
Here's some more for the list:
Death Sentence- UK BD
The Crow- UK BD
Bangkok Dangerous- UK BD
Running Scared- Dutch BD ,(AFAIK)

The UK discs were all released by EIV, whose trail of terror continues.
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post #27 of 29
2/7/09 at 9:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xradman View Post

Swedish release of Righteous Kill on Blu-ray is encoded at 1080i50 (25FPS) and suffers from 4% speedup (96 minute feature compared to 101 minutes on US release).

Righteous Kill is released in Sweden by a company called Noble (aka n00ble) and they have a ridiculous number of 1080i50 releases (or 1080p/25PsF as they're advertised on the covers) including The Mist, Rambo, Lady Vengeance, Hell Ride, Superhero Movie etc. Most likely they are also the same in Norway (released by Star Media) and Finland (Future Film).

It seems to be standard procedure for them to speed up films. No one really knows why, and of course they don't answer e-mails.
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post #28 of 29
2/7/09 at 3:56pm
Thanks for the list. I've started a thread to keep track of these blemishes.

List of Blu-ray movies authored in 1080i50
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post #29 of 29
2/8/09 at 5:18pm
Quote:


BTW anyone know about HD-DVD. Same deal or 25fps?

Same deal.

Quote:


And what about American video shot at 60Hz? Will it be shown at 60Hz here in Europe or interpolated to 50Hz (like it is done with DVDs). Interpolation is nasty and causes jerky video and loses resolution.

If they have any sense, it will be left at 60hz and not subjected to standards converted.
Unfortunately HDTV broadcasts in Europe are done at 50hz, so any US content is converted. Yuck.

Quote:


For Standard Def it is debatable. PAL has higher resolution 720x576 vs NTSC 720x480 and better colour, but lower frame rate 50Hz vs 60Hz for NTSC.

Better colour for standard def COMPOSITE video yes - but MPEG and similar systems are inherently component video based.
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