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Format Battle General Discussion Thread II: Discuss it here! - Page 54  

post #1591 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post

bkilian, do you prefer Tivo to Windows Media Center?

Or the UI used in MS IPTV and other products from the MS television group?

Tivo UI is fine but the speed is a huge drag. I recall MS always touting how responsive their UI was.

This is kinda getting a bit off-topic , but I prefer the Tivo UI over pretty much any of the other options. It's intuitive and responsive. I don't notice the slowness so much, and there are a number of improvements I'd make (They really need a way to access a season pass from the recorded program itself, for example), but all in all, it made television actually watchable for me. I haven't watched "live TV" in 6 years.

Media center looks nice, but I never really got into it, I prefer my PCs in the office, not the TV room.

Certainly (to get back on topic ) Tivo UI is no more slugglish than most of the BD menus I've used
post #1592 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Ramzyk View Post

I see now where I'm getting into trouble, unfortunately I believe the scenarios may have been contributed by a participant I have placed on my ignore list for excessive use the words...

I believe you may be confusing this discussion with another poster since the two usage scenarios were actually confirmed by Keith.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Also, fwiw, it is widely speculated that the only reason the PS3 included a standard HDD at all (because it wasn't going to) was because of the decision to include the Blu-Ray drive which would result in pretty horrible load times.

Though I see a good number of posters spreading this rumor I have never actually seen any evidence for it. In fact from what I have read on this issue the average read rate of a Blu-ray disc at 2x is a bit faster than the average read rate of a dual layer DVD at 8x. Personally I don't know what factors eventually led Sony to make the hard drive mandatory with the PS3 but I get the feeling that some posters try to find reasons to dislike the PS3 because they dislike Sony.
post #1593 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

I believe you may be confusing this discussion with another poster since the two usage scenarios were actually confirmed by Keith.


Though I see a good number of posters spreading this rumor I have never actually seen any evidence for it. In fact from what I have read on this issue the average read rate of a Blu-ray disc at 2x is a bit faster than the average read rate of a dual layer DVD at 8x. Personally I don't know what factors eventually led Sony to make the hard drive mandatory with the PS3 but I get the feeling that some posters try to find reasons to dislike the PS3 because they dislike Sony.

ty, will do some reading!
post #1594 of 2493
My Direct Tivo is unuseable at times waiting for a Season Pass to be added.

Anyways, I would think the UI for disc players is run by the SoC?
post #1595 of 2493
Eh, I'll take Honda over Hyundai if I want to own the car (I do like having an appreciable resale value), though have considered leasing a BMW (owning an out of warranty Kraut car scares me silly). Noone can deny there's a... panache... to BMW and other luxury marques that Hyundai just doesn't have. People shopping a 5 series would probably either laugh or sneer if you offered them a Sonata...

On a similar note, I'll take Denon over Sony over Toshiba over Samsung.

Apple pretty much pwns all comers in the UI category... too bad the Apple TV is gimped. I imagine what they COULD have done and can only sigh. Imagine a DVR with Front Row functionality and user swappable 3.5" SATA drives (similar to how the PS3 has an easily accessible 2.5" SATA). But no, DRM had to rear it's ugly head yet again. To say nothing of 720p.
post #1596 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

Eh, I'll take Honda over Hyundai if I want to own the car (I do like having an appreciable resale value), though have considered leasing a BMW (owning an out of warranty Kraut car scares me silly). Noone can deny there's a... panache... to BMW and other luxury marques that Hyundai just doesn't have. People shopping a 5 series would probably either laugh or sneer if you offered them a Sonata...

On a similar note, I'll take Denon over Sony over Toshiba over Samsung.

Apple pretty much pwns all comers in the UI category... too bad the Apple TV is gimped. I imagine what they COULD have done and can only sigh. Imagine a DVR with Front Row functionality and user swappable 3.5" SATA drives (similar to how the PS3 has an easily accessible 2.5" SATA). But no, DRM had to rear it's ugly head yet again. To say nothing of 720p.

Wow, nothing like a racial slur to spice up the discussion...


FWIW - give me a good Toyota any day of the week and I'll probably end up happy. I'm lame like that.
post #1597 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Wow, nothing like a racial slur to spice up the discussion...


FWIW - give me a good Toyota any day of the week and I'll probably end up happy. I'm lame like that.

Does Lexus Count? The IS350 is nice
post #1598 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

I still think not standardizing the HDD was silly.

MS had the standardized hdd in Xbox 1 while PS2 did not. Consumers made a loud & clear statement with their $ about how much that mattered in that generation.
post #1599 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

MS had the standardized hdd in Xbox 1 while PS2 did not. Consumers made a loud & clear statement with their $ about how much that mattered in that generation.

Technology has advanced quite a bit since then though ... HDD's drop in cost pretty quickly compared to some of the other technologies in a console platform so I still think they could have done it ... they just wouldn't be profitable as quickly. At the end of the day, they are a business though and they need to make money. And I suppose with the benefits of the dev kits, it really hasn't hurt them.

I guess the flip side, like you said, is the $$ ... if you start stuffing too many extra things into a console, you get something that no one wants to buy (or can afford).
post #1600 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

MS had the standardized hdd in Xbox 1 while PS2 did not. Consumers made a loud & clear statement with their $ about how much that mattered in that generation.

There are many factors that determine whether a game console does well. For instance how do you know that the Xbox would have done better, or even sold as well, had the hard drive been made optional? Personally speaking I think making the hard drive optional on the Xbox 360 was a step back while making the hard drive mandatory in the PS3 was a step forward.
post #1601 of 2493
This is related to DVD as opposed to HD-DVD and BD, but I find movie DRM related news of interest as there is a lot of new DRM technology in the new formats (especially BD). The more you tighten security, the more risk of running into problems like this.

Sony Pictures DVD's have a new a copy protection that makes the movies unplayable on some Sony (& other makes) DVD players!
http://sonystrikesagain.wordpress.co...9/hello-world/

YES ! It appears that Sony have done it again. In their zeal to make their DVD movies copyproof (yeah right) they have in fact made their latest releases unplayable on some DVD players, including my Sony DVP-CX995V DVD player. I recently rented Stranger than Fiction (2 copies) and The Holiday ( please no comments on my choice of movies) both by Sony Pictures. Both load up to the splash title screen and then load no further, then after about 60 secs the player turns itself off!

ALL my other DVD's and new releases from other movie companies play perfectly

I called Sony Electronics help line and they said to call Sony Pictures 1-800-860-2878 which I did.

The following is a compression of our discussion:

Sony Tech: We know about this problem. Its our new copy protection that's making these discs unplayable in some players including our own, we do not intend to change the copy protection. The only correction to this problem is a firmware update to your player. The electronics division know about this and should have given you this information.

Me: OK send me the firmware update.

Sony Tech: We do not have one as yet.

Me: OK (a bit frustrated) when will it be available?

Sony Tech: It could be 2 weeks it could be a month, we don't know.
post #1602 of 2493
Quote:


Why all the concern over King Kong. It scored a 5/5 PQ and 4.5/5 AQ. Is it the conviction that AQ can't be any good if it's not lossless?

because I want 5/5

Quote:


There are plenty of movies with lossless tracks that scored lower for AQ.

and that does not tell you there is something wrong with the reviewer?
post #1603 of 2493
Quote:


And how do you know the end user can hear the difference? Or are you just guessing? Because I can think of quite a few people that have their optical playback gear hooked up to their TV speakers or a HTIAB via analog RCA's. Will they hear the difference too? I didn't know the 'lossless' encode could transcend the physical and technological limitations of the hardware.

well then why go with HD at all, I am sure we can find someone that still watches on a small B&W TV from 30 years ago.
post #1604 of 2493
Your Sony player won't play a new Sony movie because of a new DVD copy protection scheme?

...for DVD's...... root kit anyone?


People should expect the gaming console division (PS3) and the studio (movie authoring and release scheduling) and the consumer electronics division (stand alone Blu-ray players) to be movng in the same direction..

Sony has a bit of a reputation for not coordinating across its divisions andfor being a stove piped organization , but that's a recent DVD player.

You would have thought someone would have checked......
post #1605 of 2493
Quote:


Yes. You keep stating that. Categorically.

Folks have simply asked for some emprical studies showing that is the case.

I will show it to you when you show me an empirical study that shows the sun is still there on a cloudy day when it can't be seen.

No body makes studies for self evident stuff. Why would a codec be lossy, sold as lossy if it was lossless?

that some people conned a hand full of guys on a forum that lossy means lossless minus some dog whistles, just shows how far some people fanboy attitude has gone.
post #1606 of 2493
Quote:


Why all the concern over King Kong. It scored a 5/5 PQ and 4.5/5 AQ. Is it the conviction that AQ can't be any good if it's not lossless?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP View Post

because I want 5/5

Quote:


There are plenty of movies with lossless tracks that scored lower for AQ.

Quote:


and that does not tell you there is something wrong with the reviewer?

No.

It may be that the audio experience was exceptional and contributed to the enjoyment of the movie, and that lossless audio is not a absolute requirement in a movie soundtrack.

...even when it conflicts with your worldview.....
post #1607 of 2493
Quote:


And I'm not being condescending at all ... if you're happy watching TV with composite cables and listening with analog RCA's, then more power to you. *shrug*. I wouldn't presume to tell you what you would appreciate more on your hardware, regardless of what I would like for mine. Though, I suppose that's one of the differences in the 'quest for lossless'. *shrug*

but that is the difference. I say I want lossless you are saying we don't need it and studios should not use it. It would be the same as that composite guy saying I use composite the disks should not be HD.
post #1608 of 2493
Quote:


No.

It may be that the audio experience was exceptional and contributed to the enjoyment of the movie, and that lossless audio is not a absolute requirement in a movie soundtrack.

...even when it conflicts with your worldview.....

It does not conflict with my world view. Do you think a better PQ and AQ will make a really bad movie good? These are reviews, if the guy is judging the movie, then PQ/AQ have nothing to do with it. If the guy is judging the actual quality of the encoding then giving a higher grade to lossy is insane. The issue is some people are using A thinking it proves B
post #1609 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP View Post

I will show it to you when you show me an empirical study that shows the sun is still there on a cloudy day when it can't be seen.

No body makes studies for self evident stuff. Why would a codec be lossy, sold as lossy if it was lossless?

that some people conned a hand full of guys on a forum that lossy means lossless minus some dog whistles, just shows how far some people fanboy attitude has gone.

Anthony, you keep throwing the "fanboy" comment around as if it could only apply to someone else, and you are somehow immune from the charge. The fact that you regularly devolve into irrationality when any aspect of your quasi-religious fervor for a freaking technology is legitimately critiqued, strongly suggests that you have no sense of either irony, or hypocrisy.
post #1610 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP View Post

because I want 5/5


and that does not tell you there is something wrong with the reviewer?

Garbage in, garbage out. Lossless won't produce a better product than you started with.

I've done blind testing, and I know I loose the ability to detect the difference between lossy and lossless at about 192kb/sec. Have you ever tried this out to find the limits of what you can detect?
post #1611 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

Garbage in, garbage out. Lossless won't produce a better product than you started with.

I've done blind testing, and I know I loose the ability to detect the difference between lossy and lossless at about 192kb/sec. Have you ever tried this out to find the limits of what you can detect?


Oooh, I'd buy a ticket to see that!
post #1612 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP View Post

It does not conflict with my world view. Do you think a better PQ and AQ will make a really bad movie good? These are reviews, if the guy is judging the movie, then PQ/AQ have nothing to do with it. If the guy is judging the actual quality of the encoding then giving a higher grade to lossy is insane. The issue is some people are using A thinking it proves B

Chill out dude. This is a enthusiast site. Don't take it too seriously.

Quote:


If the guy is judging the actual quality of the encoding then giving a higher grade to lossy is insane

No he is doing his job as a reviewer.

On the subject, a reviewer is not comparing a lossless to lossy version of the same encode. He is subjectively evaluating how the soundtrack renders sound and how it enhances the movie experience.

Since DD+ on a HD DVD soundtrack is superior in most cases to anything that ever appeared on a DVD, it is quite possible that a modern DD+ codec can render a superior audio experience quite nicely and that a soundtrack in DD+ that matches the movie and is well mastered can be a more impressive and better sounding experience than a not so great sounding piece of soundtrack and lousy musical score that is rendered in PCM.

Its seems that your blind faith in PCM because it is on Blu-ray may make you forget the fact that the reviewer is seeing how the sound fits the movie experience. He's not just saying a PCM track is always better. He comparing content, not codecs.

In this case, despite your gnashing of teeth , the modern yet still lossy codec may be more than adequate to sound great for a movie soundtrack.

A poor musical score or sound design that his done in a lossless codec or PCM soundtrack on one title is not always superior to a well done academy award winning soundtrack more than adequately rendered in DD+.
post #1613 of 2493
This discussion is pointless. It's clear that some HDDVD folks are tied to a dogmatic and religious viewpoint that says that anything that HDDVD can't do isn't necessary. It's stunning that AV aficionados would think it is OK for a next generation format, which might last ten years or more, to not have the bandwidth for lossless audio or numerous audio tracks to allow for multiple languages.
post #1614 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrseder View Post

This discussion is pointless. It's clear that some HDDVD folks are tied to a dogmatic and religious viewpoint that says that anything that HDDVD can't do isn't necessary. It's stunning that AV aficionados would think it is OK for a next generation format, which might last ten years or more, to not have the bandwidth for lossless audio or numerous audio tracks to allow for multiple languages.

Ah, but we hear a constant refrain from BD aficionados that extra features are completely unnecessary, and they don't care about them: "Just show me the movie." Drop all the extra features.......problem solved.......right?
post #1615 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by rto View Post

Ah, but we hear a constant refrain from BD aficionados that extra features are completely unnecessary, and they don't care about them: "Just show me the movie." Drop all the extra features.......problem solved.......right?

And let's not forget all of the baggage that comes with BD. SuperDuper DRM, region coding, lots of mpeg2 titles with a higher rate of poor PQ (compared to AVC and VC1) and of course the vast majority of the catalog on BD-25.
post #1616 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

This is related to DVD as opposed to HD-DVD and BD, but I find movie DRM related news of interest as there is a lot of new DRM technology in the new formats (especially BD). The more you tighten security, the more risk of running into problems like this.

True, but movie studios have been playing around with the DVD file structure for a while now in an attempt to mess up DVD rippers. From what I have read Sony messed up and used a file structure that wouldn't work on certain DVD players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

Your Sony player won't play a new Sony movie because of a new DVD copy protection scheme?

He was quoting that from the blog he linked to.
post #1617 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkilian View Post

And just for fun, a tiburon smoking a BMW (looks like a M3 to me)

Isn't that a Z3 or a Z4 Roadster? the M3 is a 2 door sedan.
post #1618 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post


Apple pretty much pwns all comers in the UI category... too bad the Apple TV is gimped. I imagine what they COULD have done and can only sigh. Imagine a DVR with Front Row functionality and user swappable 3.5" SATA drives (similar to how the PS3 has an easily accessible 2.5" SATA). But no, DRM had to rear it's ugly head yet again. To say nothing of 720p.

Why would Apple want to cannibalize their iTunes TV show sales by releasing a DVR ?
post #1619 of 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by zBuff View Post

Isn't that a Z3 or a Z4 Roadster? the M3 is a 2 door sedan.

All of the above mentioned are chick cars.
post #1620 of 2493
All Japanese and European cars are chick cars to you Red Blooded Americans.

But seriously the M3s are awesome cars, pratical everyday cars too.
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