Format Battle General Discussion Thread II: Discuss it here! - Page 56  

You seemed to have snipped my questions to you in this post, as well as having avoided answering them.

but richard if someone is looking at it on their 5" TV they can't tell the difference

Steve do they need an answer?

well if you want one. Luckily unlike lossless audio you can search the internet and get it because in 1st grade science teachers teach this stuff.

suffice it to say there are three primary colours


red green and blue these are called the additive primary colours. putting them together in different proportions can give you any colour. Many colours (like Magenta) don't even have a wavelength and most objects get their colours from absorbing several wavelengths.

Now that you learnt what you should have back in grade 1 we can continue the discussion.

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ch2m-nitu/koorogie.htm

Horse hockey. That's exactly what you said:


And then again:



Back to your reply above...


So let me get this straight... you are concerned that somehow players are gonna flub up lossless decoding. What about MPEG2? And AVC? And VC-1? And scaling? And compositing? And their TCP/IP stack? etc, etc... Yet they'll get PCM right. They won't round it incorrectly for DAC's that don't take 24 bits in. They won't cross stereo pairs. They won't resample.

And you are questioning whether I live in the real world?

Before I respond to this, let me be absolutely clear. Are you claiming that a 3-color primary model is how "real life" works, and not simply a perceptual model we use in display technology?

Is that your "1st grade" basic teaching claim?

agree with you on that


but that is the thing losless audio adds more in this respect then anything else. There was a thread in the BD forum where someone set-up his PS3 incorrectly and was getting SD out of it. He said BD looks just slightly better then DVD but sounds much better. Whe he realized and switched to HD he responded "now I understand"

Lossless audio (unless you gave a 360 add-on) adds more then you think. Even if some connects a player to an old SD set using RCA connectors (analog audio and composite) he can hear the benefits of lossless, he can't watch HD (his set is SD and only accepts SD over component) so it is SD just not as over compressed as DVD, he can't hear the surround (and 5.1 is nothing new) but those analog cables bring out the lossless (from PCM ordecoded DTHD) to his speakers




that is the issue the difference is much bigger then you think. It is similar to someone saying the difference between SD and HD is minimal (after all it won't change the acting and most people don't count freckles to see if one is missing due to resolution)


but what they want is what sells. What sells should be what we want. This is what is most annoying with this discussion we are telling studios we would rather have garbage on the disk then quality. why? because some overzealous fanboys decided that that cheerleading is more important.

Let me first answer your question.......No. My speakers extend to 29Khz. I'm not calling the manufacturer to ask them to change their design. At the same time I don't believe I'm able to hear anywhere close to a 29Khz frequency.

Now I'll ask my question from the post you qouted.

I've done blind testing, and I know I loose the ability to detect the difference between lossy and lossless at about 192kb/sec. Have you ever tried this out to find the limits of what you can detect?

no it is not


there is a world of difference between that and


the first one is no the second one is yes. The first one assumes I think it for all devices. I alreaduy said that I assume it to be an exception. But for all I know that guy wanted to watch his movies on an old PC that can't process DTHD correctly and he would get the glitches.

not at all. what I am saying (might this might be high school science) is that the eye has a retina, the retina has rods and cones. Rods are not important in this discussion since they are not colour sensitive. Cones are divided into three categories red, green and blue (wow what a coincidence they match the primary colours) depending on the wavelengths they react to, these reactions are then sent to the brain and we see colour. if the eye gets yellow wavelength the green and red react and send a signal, if the eye gets red and green wavelength the red and green cones react and send a signal to the brain. In both cases it is the exact same signal that reaches the brain and we see the exact same thing.

Maybe I missed it, but yours was the only significant feedback I saw.

Let me see if I follow your point. Mpeg2 has delivered some titles that score a 5/5, therefore Mpeg2 is just as good as AVC and VC1. Is this correct? If so, are the studios wasting their time with AVC and VC1? Is it a statistical anomaly that Mpeg2 titles average lower PQ scores on both BD-25 and BD-50 (vs. AVC and VC1)?

Maybe my theory is wrong. Maybe there's some other logical explanation, and all this effort to create new codecs has been a big waste of time that does nothing but add more licensing costs to all of these players.

I find it ironic that you're in favor of lossless audio, but when it comes to video you're very supportive of a 12 year old codec vs. two newer more advanced codecs.

Alert the media I'm going to support Anthony. Yes, RGB additive color is pretty-much the way light and color work in nature. Subtractive color systems (like CMYK) have much narrower spectrum, and approximations/simulations of RGB.

That's why you get colors on your (RGB) monitor that cannot be reproduced in printed (CMYK) form.

It's very counter-intuitive, in that for example an orange Jack O Lantern, is actually every color that compliments orange, because that is the color(s) it cannot absorb, and that's how RGB works. If you intersect a Red, Blue, and Green beams of light, you get pure "white light"

That's a very good point ... the new SDHC cards are > 9mbps I believe ... what do you think it would take? 2x that? 3x?

I did say wishful thinking.

Actually I was talking about internet bandwidth.

Let us say you have a huge CF memory in the player. What would you use it for - probably the extras - which will then seemlessly be played along with the movie on the disc. But the problem is they have to be downloaded everytime you load a new disc. And if you have even 4GB of memory that would take a long time to fill up through Internet - and nobody will have the patience to wait ...

You mean we have a sun that radiates only red, green and blue in the visible spectrum? That was the point.

Well, there's a good reason to suggest we should have PCM on discs. I'm sure the video looks stellar at 8fps too.

And what you have described is how humans PERCIEVE color.

Now, do you recognize that is NOT how bodies radiate color?

We may be getting somewhere.

Perhaps we are on different pages here, Timothy. I was not challenging the additive versus subtractive nature of color system, but rather asking Anthony if he thought that a "primary color system" was actually how light is physically radiated from a body, as opposed to it being the perceptual model used by display devices to exploit our visual perception.

IOW: Did he recognize that orange is physically radiating off the fruit as a 590nm wavelength in real life, not as a combination of 570nm (Yellow) and 650nm (Red) wavelengths that our eyes perceive as orange.

Yes, that's what I was getting at.

Ultimately I'm challenging the notion that for self-evident truths (i.e.- a perceptual model != physical mechanism) that studies are not done to determine the degree to which the perception is accurate to the original.

I think maybe Timothy thought I was challenging additive vs. subtractive, which I was not. Both are perceptual models for different applications.

Woohoo! We agree on something!


And how many other 'average consumers' are going to hook up there gear incorrectly and not have the benefit of AVS to help them fix it?


Sooo ... we want lossless because it is closest to the master ... but even a lossless encode piped over analog connections is going to sound better than a lossy encode piped over the same analog RCA's? I'm gonna have to try this myself, because I don't see how I could tell a difference.


Perhaps ... but this is where you and I largely disagree. Your opinion, which you state as fact, is that the difference is large. My opinion, which I state as opinion, is that I don't notice a difference and I don't think the average consumer will either.


Again, it's up to the studios, like you said. They feed us extra content that many BD-advocates say they could care less about (I kinda like having them, though I must confess I rarely watch anything other than deleted scenes and bloopers, if that).

And, please, can we stop with the 'overzealous fanboy' stuff? You can make your point without calling those people who disagree with you stupid, dumb, ignorant, fanboy, etc.

I was thinking more as a replacement for HDD's and things like that ... wrt Consoles, etc.

But, couldn't a second disc be used to load up the CF storage for separate audio tracks or perhaps a separate PiP encode or something? Then the secondary decoder would have full bandwidth available for that content and HD-DVD could theorhetically provide every language on the planet without sacrificing bw?

If the guy has an old PC, then he probably doesn't have the equipment to hear loseless.

And this should be taken differently since I thought that the players made have to pass specs in order to have the logo's and be licensed for the technology. People with PC's don't have this to worry about.

Indeed they do. You are spot on.

And although AnthonyP would like us to forget that in this post he wasn't talking about PC's at all, but the hardware within dedicated decks, much of the converstation was indeed about exactly the sort of hardware testing/compliance to which you refer.

That is possible.

Does anyone know what this really says?

Something about Wal-Mart and Chinese Players ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10344181

It seems WalMart has ordered 2M HD DVD drives for the holiday season. Possibly they will get someone else to build the player using the drives and sell the players at an attractive price during the holiday season.

This can be a decisive event is the format war.

Well, we know the Chinese have officially adopted HD-DVD as their high def format for domestic use. Of course their version uses their own home grown AVS codec instead of the standard three.

I believe the article relates to their beginning production of HD-DVD drive mechanisms. That's good news in that the increased production volumes will help drive further cost reductions. I'm not sure how Walmart factors in unless they plan to be the retail distribution arm for a lot of these players.

Did anyone else catch the new SoC announcement Intel made at the Beijing IDF?

Intel integrated media SoC boosts A/V processing
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6434434.html

The Intel CE 2110 media processor is a complete system-on-a-chip (SoC) architecture that Intel said combines a 1GHz processing core with powerful A/V processing and graphics, and I/O components, onto a single chip. The SoC includes a 1 GHz Intel XScale CPU, MPEG-2 and H.264 hardware video decoders, DDR2 memory interface, 2D/3D graphics accelerators, and is supported by a modular software development environment. Intel also said that its platform architecture also allows CE developers and manufacturers to deliver pure IP or hybrid set top boxes designed to receive content from IP and digital broadcast pipes.

They don't mention VC1, but if it can handle that as well, it seems like it might be handy for building high def players. Perhaps there's a different flavor of this chip coming soon.

I noticed recently that the last two encodings from Universal, The Jerk and The Game, were rated pretty low in video quality at High-Def Digest. Not that it matters much but I am a bit surprised at the hypocrisy that a few posters have when it comes to the two HD formats. A Blu-ray disc with a 3 star rating in picture quality causes them to make mocking posts against Blu-ray in this thread, but I never hear a peep from those same posters when discs like these are released on HD DVD. Maybe it is just me but I think if someone is going to mock an entire video format simply because of an encoding that was made for it they should at least be consistent about it.

I bet you were on the edge of investing in an HD DVD player until this setback, huh Richard?

Thank you Richard. I've updated my spreadsheet. The current percentage of stinkers (3/5 or lower PQ) stands at

HD-DVD = 10.65%
BD = 13.04%

It is certainly dissapointing as this is the first time I've seen HD-DVD go above 10%.