or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) › Kaleidescape trial to start 3/19/07
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Kaleidescape trial to start 3/19/07

post #1 of 49
Thread Starter 
Trial could test digital media rights

Rick Merritt (03/16/2007 5:03 PM EDT) URL:
http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.j...leID=198001672

SAN JOSE, Calif. -- Trial begins Monday here for a civil suit that could become a test case on questions about what fair use rights systems makers and end users have with their digital media. The DVD Copy Control Association (DVD CCA) is suing Kaleidescape Inc. (Mountain View, Calif.), claiming the company's home servers violate in several ways a contract designed to protect DVDs from being copied.

.... [snipped]
post #2 of 49
This will be interesting.
Kinda funny to see someone desperate enough to pursue this over a dead format. Might as well go after beta users while their at it. Does anyone really buy dvds anymore.
post #3 of 49
Well, yes, people do still buy lots of DVDs, it seems. But even if they didn't, both the DVD CCA folks and Kaleidescape/EFF might consider this important to fight anyway, in order to provide clarity for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.
post #4 of 49
Actually, DVDs sold more last year than any year before that. "early adopters" vs "mainstream" and all that.
post #5 of 49
Meantime Service Pack two of Vista will have HD DVD and BlueRay ripped and playing on media center extenders.
post #6 of 49
lets see if anyone has the b@lls to go up against mr. bill!!!!
post #7 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Might as well go after beta users while their at it.

That's the point. They are going after the beta users, again. They (motion picture industry) originally lost in the US Supreme Court vs. BetaMax and we (the people) were found to be entitled to 'fair use'. They've created the Digital Media Act(DMA) which up till now has not been put through the courts. Like many laws in this country we have a bunch of lawmakers that get laws approved only to be overturned by the courts as being unconstitutional. The same will happen to DMA.

When we buy software for computers our industry expects us to use copies of the product in order to protect our right to use the copy we purchased. The motion picture industry recently attempted to block putting DVD material in digital format on unapproved 'personal computers' machines (or something like that). The courts TOLD them they were going to far and denied their request.

I'm all for legal use of copyrighted material. I'm not for losing any of my constitutional rights under 'fair use' and the right to freely associate and purchase content in a cooperative manner. Just because they've migrated their product to digital does not give them anymore rights than they had before. I agree that they (motion picture industry) have a problem and they don't know how to legally fix it. Too bad so sad.

I want to see Kaleidescape win their counter-claim for $$$$$ Billions.
post #8 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by llumpire View Post

I want to see Kaleidescape win their counter-claim for $$$$$ Billions.

Me too. That way they'l do HD DVD and a cable card thingy too.
post #9 of 49
this trial has nothing to do with hollywood. Originally, the DVD-CCA asked the MPAA to be a party to the comlaint and they passed.

It is a simple contract dispute (albeit with other potential ramifications.)
post #10 of 49
I guess it's still too early to tell if the CCA folks got their way with regards to public or closed trial.
post #11 of 49
While the number was still very high, over 24 billion, the quantity of DVD sold in the world last year was less than the previous year for the first time ever. After ten years, the anniversary was yesterday, the format is migrating to the next thing...maybe HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, but my bet is on downloaded media.
post #12 of 49
I think Kaleidescape will win, but at a huge financial cost. The movie and music industry are champions of frivolous lawsuits. They don't aim to win, they aim to punish and scare. Since Kaleidescape's design has valid uses, does not cause harm to the industry, doesn't actually create a new "dangerous" piracy technology, etc, they *should* be okay. Maybe. The movie industry knows this could kill them financially though, and so they'll do it. I don't think Kaledescape can countersue for damages though. Is this a "loser pays" state where it will be tried?
post #13 of 49
Hi

I see download as the mid to distant future not the immediate future. Broadband is far from prevalent even in the USA. for a DVD at 4 GB, a fast connection like DSL or even cable would take a very long time, 2 to 3 hours are the norm.. an HD DVD or BD at 25 GB would take under the same conditions between 6 to 18 Hours... We are not there yet... Not very soon. Disk support will be with us for a while, maybe 3 to 5 years.

On the subject at hand, the film industry by that one should read Hollywood is indeed just playing the game of making life difficult for companies such as Kscape, they( Film Indusytry) can pool their resources and weather long trials, I am not sure Kscape would be able to match them. This will be however a short-lived victory. The march of digitizing content for use is inexorable. They better quickly find a different business; model theirs is outdated and not keeping pace with the new realities of this connected world...
post #14 of 49
Uh, I buy DVD's.
post #15 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. AIX View Post

While the number was still very high, over 24 billion, the quantity of DVD sold in the world last year was less than the previous year for the first time ever. After ten years, the anniversary was yesterday, the format is migrating to the next thing...maybe HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, but my bet is on downloaded media.

Another big factor is the studios are running out of material - all the old TV shows, movies and so on have been put out on DVD. The only new releases are new movies and this years TV.

The market is saturated. Rentals are a factor, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are only about 1% of DVD sales in 2006, VOD is a factor, downloads are not (at least yet).

By 2010 HD-DVD and BluRay is expected to be 1/2 the rate of DVD sales. Personally I think that is overly optimistic.
post #16 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post

Hi

I see download as the mid to distant future not the immediate future. Broadband is far from prevalent even in the USA.

About 1/2 of US internet users are on broadband now. Amoung 'active' users it is more like 80%. Netflix is rolling out downloads in selected markets already. I have 30 mbps download via cable right now, and that means a two hour movie (2gB) takes about 12 minutes for me to download if the server can keep up.

I think it will be a factor in two years.
post #17 of 49
I don't think the Hi Def formats (BluRay and HD DVD) will really make a significant dent until they have 1. settled out the "war", and 2. until people understand them. Once I a while I go into a Circuit City type place and am amazed to see people saying things like "wow, this is a better picture quality DVD" and buying it, not knowing they need a special player. Heck my sister in law did this during XMas...bought an HD DVD for her father not knowing you needed a player for it. Though on this forum that would be uncommon, I'd bet that is more likely what the general population is thinking out there.
Just my 2 cents.
post #18 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I think Kaleidescape will win, but at a huge financial cost. The movie and music industry are champions of frivolous lawsuits. They don't aim to win, they aim to punish and scare. Since Kaleidescape's design has valid uses, does not cause harm to the industry, doesn't actually create a new "dangerous" piracy technology, etc, they *should* be okay. Maybe. The movie industry knows this could kill them financially though, and so they'll do it. I don't think Kaledescape can countersue for damages though. Is this a "loser pays" state where it will be tried?

THe movie industry is not a party to the suit.

K's pockets are not as shallow as many assume

k already has a counter claim for damages for the DVDCCA not upholding their own contract.

Read http://kaleidescape.com/company/legal.html for a clearer picture of what this is about.
post #19 of 49
As far as the market being saturated, look how many old (and current) TV shows are not yet out on DVD. The industry makes more on TV shows than movies by a long shot.

And as far as i can tell, there are more movies made each year than ever before. (no commenting on quality)
post #20 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Johnson View Post

Trial could test digital media rights

Rick Merritt (03/16/2007 5:03 PM EDT) URL:
http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.j...leID=198001672

SAN JOSE, Calif. -- Trial begins Monday here for a civil suit that could become a test case on questions about what fair use rights systems makers and end users have with their digital media. The DVD Copy Control Association (DVD CCA) is suing Kaleidescape Inc. (Mountain View, Calif.), claiming the company's home servers violate in several ways a contract designed to protect DVDs from being copied.

.... [snipped]

I guess we will all see. It could be a pretty boring trial if the judge keeps it focused on the breach of contract issue.
post #21 of 49
I have had the pleasure of speaking with Michael Malcolm and two of the principals of Kscape in very general terms about their technologies and approach to servers. They will ultimately prevail because they are correct in their assessment of the contract AND because they have the resources to contine their fight until resolution. Mr. Malcolm is a very successful businessman and is dedicated to his new venture.

Servers are the immediate future and will only become more dominant over the next 3-5 years. It is estimated that 15,000 per month will be installed by the end of the year. DVDs will not go away anytime soon but HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are going to have an impossible task of replacing it.
post #22 of 49
Having worked there for a year and since moved on, i can tell you that their approach to everything is totally revolutionary for the CE space.

THey have designed the products with the robustness and behavior of true enterprise equipment. Mike was one of the founders of NetApp and also founded (now) Bluecoat. WHen they started designing the system, everybody who was a part of the team had an enterprise pedigree. not a CE person to be found. and honestly the greatest friction was when CE people told them what they were doing wrong and how they needed to change it for this market.

THey did nothing of the sort and while there are some who may not like some features, or feel that other features need to be there... K has proceeded along building the best product in this space. Bar none. nothing can touch it for reliability, feature set, robustness, nothing.

And even beyond that, what they have done with the touch panel design has also really been fantastic. i will not call it revolutionary as there are a few designers out there doing similar things, but most do not.

K has made a great product by radically focusing on who their customers are and designed what they need. Sure there may be more stuff they want, but those are just features to add down the road.

Now for me, all i can afford is an Apple TV, but even it looks like a K.
post #23 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

THe movie industry is not a party to the suit.

K's pockets are not as shallow as many assume

k already has a counter claim for damages for the DVDCCA not upholding their own contract.

Read http://kaleidescape.com/company/legal.html for a clearer picture of what this is about.

I read that, including this very important snippet:

Kaleidescape's cross-complaint also seeks a declaration from the Court that the CSS license does not include terms that the DVD CCA claims have been breached by Kaleidescape.

Could you elaborate on that point, as you seem to be the most familiar with the suit?
post #24 of 49
i think that all they are asking for is an additional statement that they never did breach the contract in the first place. this would show that the lawsuit was without merit.

Full disclosure...
I worked at K for a year. But i was not involved in any way with the legal parts.
post #25 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

Another big factor is the studios are running out of material - all the old TV shows, movies and so on have been put out on DVD. The only new releases are new movies and this years TV.

The market is saturated. Rentals are a factor, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are only about 1% of DVD sales in 2006, VOD is a factor, downloads are not (at least yet).

By 2010 HD-DVD and BluRay is expected to be 1/2 the rate of DVD sales. Personally I think that is overly optimistic.

I agree with this. There is only so much content to sell. Granted all films and TV shows are not on DVD but it's been so cheap and so available that it is less interesting to just about everyone. Initially ,the early adopters bought in then a second tier of those who liked movies a lot then just about everyone. Salina ( my daughter) had a party last year and two kids came with boxes full of teen movies to watch on my system for one night !

I don't think a new format is going to make movie watching ever have the newness that the early rental stores then later the buying of any movie you wanted on DVD had.

Art
post #26 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

THe movie industry is not a party to the suit.

K's pockets are not as shallow as many assume

k already has a counter claim for damages for the DVDCCA not upholding their own contract.

Read http://kaleidescape.com/company/legal.html for a clearer picture of what this is about.

Ah, thanks. I was generalizing based on the typical modus operandi of the industry so I'll read up!
post #27 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

i think that all they are asking for is an additional statement that they never did breach the contract in the first place. this would show that the lawsuit was without merit.

Full disclosure...
I worked at K for a year. But i was not involved in any way with the legal parts.

I would love to read the actual contract, including a full accounting of who wrote the contract and how the terms were decided upon. Unfortunately, that means I'll probably have to wait for the trial preceedings to be published. But this is certainly an important case that, assuming the trial court addresses the right issues, COULD lead to good precedent for the fair use camp.

It all depends on what the DVD CCA believes their contract and license agreements state.
post #28 of 49
i seem to recall that if you go to their website (DVDCCA) and sign an agreement then you can download it.

K's descriptions was a 175 page terse legal/technical document. And he is a Stanford PhD in Computer Science and his wife is a lawyer...
post #29 of 49
Thread Starter 
More from EE Times: DVD group debates managed copies, more suits

Rick Merritt (03/22/2007 11:30 PM EDT) URL:
http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.j...leID=198500239
post #30 of 49
Thread Starter 
Still more from EE Times: Including sales figures! (at the end of the article)
----------------

DVD group gives evidence startup breeched contract

Rick Merritt
(03/24/2007 2:33 AM EDT)
URL: http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.j...leID=198500548

SAN JOSE, Calif. -- Lawyers for the DVD Copy Control Association (DVD CCA) leveled some of their strongest testimony Friday (March 23) that home server maker Kaleidescape Inc. knew its system broke provisions of its DVD copy control license. Experts testified that the breech caused significant damage to a broad group of industry players, despite the company's modest size.

[snipped...]
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) › Kaleidescape trial to start 3/19/07