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Tired of subwoofers - it is time for a bookshelf speaker test - Page 3

post #61 of 483
Nice work again Craig. Looking forward to your findings. Gald you are on the mend as well.

P.S. When time allows, throw some Paradigm Mini Monitors in the mix.

-Eli
post #62 of 483
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Soooo..... you gonna change yer handle to "craigbookshelf"?

Craig (John)

Go to your room ...
post #63 of 483
So any more reviews and news? Any cool testing data
post #64 of 483
Thanks, Graig, I have a friend who doesn't have a sound system for his plasma HT in his living room( and isn't much in AV) but wants a system. I have heard good things about the SVS product ( i have 12-isd). this confirms it for me//
he wants just a HTIB- complete set
post #65 of 483
Maybe try out the Axiom M22's if you do another round of observations.
post #66 of 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZen View Post

Maybe try out the Axiom M22's if you do another round of observations.

Also, the PSB B25. $479 a pair - MSRP.
post #67 of 483
Man these honest reports are what I needed to see. I hate people that just say buy it because it great. I wanted to say great job! Why because I am looking into upgrading my speakers.

I would like to second the suggestions of Klipsch RB61's and Axiom M22's. I have a high interest in both of these. Nearest place for me to hear Klipsch is about an hour and a half away.
post #68 of 483
Thread killer again sorry anout that!
post #69 of 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

For a start, the field will consist of 3 speakers, plus a kit I am putting together... The newest XL-s EX from AV123 will be added to the mix @ $299 per pair.

Four speakers is enough "work" for now ... after those are done, if time permits, maybe more, unless golf season interferes.

NHT classic three would be cool to add into the mix, for curiosities sake....
post #70 of 483
Thread Starter 
Ok ... The speakers are set up as "1" and "2" in the room. The Ascends are 2.2 dB more efficient than are the SVS, so I level matched them.

Having a remote controlled switch box is really convenient. After level matching, I have my son put the speakers on the stands ... I don't know which is which, and music is playing.

The first disc was the David Sanborn ... lots of bass guitar, brass, lead guitar, great stuff.

Speaker "1" is a bit more diffuse and bright than speaker "2", it has a wider soundstage, where "2" has a more focused soundstage. For example, "2" has the brass section clearly in the middle of the speakers, and mid stage front, where "1" has them up front in the middle of the speakers, with more "bite", or brightness, to the sound.

Speaker "2" is definitely a bit more neutral, to me, while "1" is a little on the bright side.

It is raining hard outside, so today is LOTS of listening.
post #71 of 483
Craig...which switchbox are you using? I would like to get one.

No difference in the bass between the two?
post #72 of 483
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Craig...which switchbox are you using? I would like to get one.

No difference in the bass between the two?

I will post a pic later, including how dark the room is, if possible. The switchbox was custom built by Axiom. They were building some for their own blind tests, and offered to let me buy one for the cost of materials.

I am running the speakers crossed over @ 80 Hz to a VTF-3 HO. I know I said I would use the H-100, but the HO just is so much better a sub.

There are enough differences between these speakers that I can easily "see" why different people would prefer each.

Speaker "1" has a wider soundstage, speaker "2" is deeper.

I am firing up "Hell Freezes Over" ... more later.
post #73 of 483
Thanks Craig....I do remember you posting that before.

Is the switch remote wired or wireless? Pics are always welcomed!
post #74 of 483
What is your procedure for setting toe-in? It might be useful to quickly choose a toe in for each speaker pair (or one toe-in that sounds good for all, if you're lucky) and use some tape on the speaker/stand or just eyeball-aim the speakers when your son sets up during the switches.

Also, it may be interesting to take a quick listen at some alternate seating positions to see if there is a marked difference between test subjects.

Enjoy your listening -- it sounds like a lot of fun.

-Max
post #75 of 483
Thread Starter 
The speakers are set up in an AB AB set up, 6 feet from the side wall on one side, and really far on the other side, toe in was done for the speakers so it would not matter which was which, all I need to do is slide 15 inches left or right on the couch with each switch.

The swticher is a wireless remote.

So far today, I have listened to David Sanborn, Roger Waters SACD, Steely Dan, Hell Freezes Over and Supertramp's anthology.

The 2 speakers are getting more distinct as time progresses.

Speaker "2" is on now, and is definitely having a soundstage between the speakers, but quite deep, with "1" exhibiting the opposite behavior. Sometimes I prefer "1", other times "2".

"2" handles vocals with more clarity, while "1" sounds more like a real sax - such as Steely Dan's various performers.

The vocals on Roger Waters are more easily discerned on speaker "2".
post #76 of 483
Quote:


... I don't know which is which

Do you have a wall of speaker cloth in front of them?
post #77 of 483
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweeterex View Post

Do you have a wall of speaker cloth in front of them?

Nope ... just a room that is totally dark. I have been putting my wife and 2 of her friends through the paces with some David Sanborn.

It is too bad more stores don't do this.
post #78 of 483
Quote:


It is too bad more stores don't do this.

Yes it is, I always find it enlightening when I do. Have fun.
post #79 of 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Nope ... just a room that is totally dark. I have been putting my wife and 2 of her friends through the paces with some David Sanborn.

It is too bad more stores don't do this.

Well, I've just stopped myself from posting like six different off color comments in response. I thought I was just getting older, but maybe more mature as well.
post #80 of 483
Thread Starter 
It is fun getting people to describe the differences between the 2. Both speakers sound good ... and some other issues have some up. If you only listen for, say, 10 seconds and switch, you get one reaction ... usually "they are so close"

Leave one on for 5 minutes and switch, and the reaction is negative every time ... regardless whether we went from "1" to "2" or "2" to "1".

Both sets are pretty good .. but both are definitely budget speakers. Neither is strong in all areas. Of course, that is to be expected.
post #81 of 483
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by droht View Post

Well, I've just stopped myself from posting like six different off color comments in response. I thought I was just getting older, but maybe more mature as well.

droht, I am still recovering from viral pneumonia and 2 other viruses ... and don't EVEN have the energy for that ... but thanks for the laugh. THAT was funny ...
post #82 of 483
My main intent with the toe-in thing was that the soundstage and focus can vary widely with toe-in, and that each speaker will sound best with the "right amount" of toe-in for that speaker. So it might make sense to do a little listening test to choose the right toe-in for each.

Also, some speakers sound better when slightly off-axis than other speakers do, which can be an important consideration for HT use with multiple viewers, so it might be interesting to test for this as part of the listening test.

I'm tempted to post a new thread so we can start guessing which is which based on your comments, without exposing you to our guesses in this thread. I have some guesses, but I'm not totally sure.

-Max
post #83 of 483
Thread Starter 
Max ... Understood about the soundstaging. I do have a SMALL amount of experience with this ... but do appreciate the help ...

Today was a lot of fun - I even tried to get people to pick one pair over the other, and even that was tough. Both speakers do different things well.

Level matching, instant switching, and turning the lights off sure does make a difference.

By the way, I even have stands which places the centers of the speakers very close to even. The SVS are considerable taller, but are on lower stands.

We don't need a different thread - anyone who cares to guess which is which based on the info posted, go for it.
post #84 of 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

The swticher is a wireless remote.

That's cooler than I thought. I want one.
post #85 of 483
I would have to guess speaker 1 is the Ascend based on your comments thus far.
post #86 of 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Max ... Understood about the soundstaging. I do have a SMALL amount of experience with this ... but do appreciate the help ...

Sorry if I was a bit pedantic. It sounds like you have things well under control.

I am having trouble guessing, though, and I wondered if a toe-in issue may be responsible for some of the discrepancy. And now I think I may have been trying to match up my experiences with the wrong speakers. Your post about the greater height of the SVS speakers makes me think you are listening to the SCS-01 (which I have not heard), where I though you were testing the SBS-01. Reading back through the thread, however, I see that you are indeed using the SCS-01 L&R speakers in the test. Right?

-Max
post #87 of 483
Do you conciously find yourself trying to figure out which are playing by placement and directional cues?
post #88 of 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulHarvey View Post

Do you conciously find yourself trying to figure out which are playing by placement and directional cues?

Pretty hard to do when they are set up in an AB AB fasion. Especially since Craig seems to have even the height of the speakers matched.

Good job Craig.... I got your PM last week, but was WAY to busy to call. Sorry about that my friend.
post #89 of 483
Quote:
Later, I will do some listening of the SB-01 against the SC-01

Cool I would like to know a little bit more about the difference too. Thinking about getting these and not sure if the scs over the sbs is for front L & R is worth the extra cash.......
Thanks for all the hard work Craigsub!!!!! This helps us newbies out a bunch!!
post #90 of 483
Oh - very interesting - I missed that you were comparing the newer SVS speakers. Never heard them but from the reviews I have read they (the center or MTM design) seemed to be better thant the standard SVS.

Still - I'll go ahead and stick with my first guess.
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