Originally Posted by foxeng
The next sentence I say this: Even your quotes from different government agencies contradict each other.
The only thing in any of the quotes(or other portions of the documents I quoted those from) I provided I can find which seems to suggest FCC may be considering a LP analog shut off date anywhere near analog shut off for full service stations was here :
Originally Posted by from 2004 LP DTV R&O
It is not our intention to allow LPTV, TV translator, and Class A broadcasters to permanently operate their analog facilities. Indeed, we seek to hasten their transition to digital service and will work toward the goal of achieving an end-date at, or soon after, the end date of the full-service transition.
Well, I have no doubt they've been "working on that goal", but there seems to be little evidence of it available yet ....
Now, I would hazard a guess that IF nothing is stated in the R&O about LP shutdown, the Qualcomm's, etc, who are banking on Feb 17, 2009 to be analog free WILL go into orbit. Based on that lobbying effort, to bet against a total analog shutdown on Feb 17, 2009 would not be prudent, IMO.
Interesting. I remember coming across some comments from qualcomm at ECFS I think for the LP DTV "procceding". (03-185 ) But I didn't look at them very closely, and ll have to look for them again, and see what they were saying.
In the LP DTV R&O from 2004, I believe FCC clearly made the case that getting the LP's off the out-of-core spectrum wasn't going to be much of an issue, since LP's are secondary+must not interfere with primary services. Including on the reclaimed spectrum, such as say, channel 55.
It seems to me any such lobbying would not even be very applicable or pertinent to the "big picture" given the current LP DTV rules. As any LP stations operating on those frequencies past Feb 17, 2009 HAVE to cease transmitting if they would interfere with those primary services. And, the rules say the LP's HAVE to get off 60-69 after feb 17, 2009, 4 channels/24MHZ there going for public safety uses of course. But, they don't say LP stations have to get off 52-59 after feb 17, 2009, UNLESS they are going to interfere with any new primary services. Just as it is now on ch 2-69 with primary services being full power/full service stations.
There are HUGE sections of the 2004 LP DTV R&O/ rules that deal with these "out of core" LP issues" -- In certian circumstances those rules even allow LP stations to transistion and operate DIGITAL beyond analog shut off for full service stations on some out-of-core channels(ch 52-59) .... Here's a portion of the R&O regarding these matters (Note: I'm quoting from the R&O as I generally find it easier to quote from the R&O rather than dig up the links to the actual "rules" as adopted in the R&O and codifed in CFR 47 regulations ) :
Originally Posted by 2004 LP DTV R&O portions of paragraph #71 and paragragh #73
71. Channels 52-59. We adopt our proposal in the Notice to make channels 52-59 available for on-channel conversion from analog-to-digital operation. Pursuant to the application filing process adopted infra, we will also permit TV translator, LPTV, and Class A station incumbents to seek use of channels 52-59 as digital companion channels (i.e., to their existing analog TV service), but only where applicants can certify in their applications the unavailability of any suitable in-core channel for this purpose. .....
....In addition, we will require that stations proposing use of channels 52-59 for digital operation notify all potentially affected 700 MHz commercial wireless licensees of the spectrum comprising the proposed TV channel and the spectrum in the first adjacent channels thereto. ......
from paragraph 73 - note - "wireless" refers to new primary services on ch 52-59]
...... The secondary digital LPTV or TV translator licensee may not continue operations if such operations would interfere with the primary 700 MHz licensee's operations after the commencement or change to the wireless service......
Originally Posted by Portion of paragraph #76 from LP DTV R&O
76. Channels 60-69. We will limit LPTV and TV translator application proposals for channels 60-69 to on-channel digital conversions of authorized analog stations and to those related to analog or digital channel displacement. In the Notice we noted that all broadcasters, including LPTV and TV translator stations, are statutorily required to vacate the use of this spectrum after the full-service DTV transition ends. Digital low power operation on channels 60-69 must therefore cease at the end of the full-service DTV transition.
Update decided to add the following quote as well :
Originally Posted by paragraph #80 from LP DTV R&O
80. We acknowledge the concerns of public safety and broadband wireless interests about the potential issues associated with permitting digital LPTV and TV translators to use the 700 MHz bands; however, we do not agree that allowing low power broadcasters to use the 700 MHz band on a secondary, non-interference basis for digital facilities would amount to an unconstitutional taking of rights from those wireless licensees that obtained their spectrum at auction. In the channel 60-69 reallocation proceeding, we determined to continue licensing analog low power facilities on a short-term, secondary basis. In the 52-59 reallocation proceeding we retained the discretion to cease accepting applications for additional LPTV and TV translator stations, but did not preclude altogether the filing of such applications. As APTS/PBS points out, the Commission had stated when it reallocated the Lower 700 MHz band (Channels 52-59) in 2001 that it intended to allow for some LPTV use of that band on a secondary basis.
All LP stations in my area on 52-69 in fact have already moved(or have CP's for moving - there is only one, on 55 currently, it has analog CP to move to 32), into the core channels. I would imagine because they realize at some point(even if it may be a very distant point in future), it's at least somewhat likely they're going to have to move in core, either for analog or digital operations.
Qaulcomm and others who have interests in the reclaimed "out of core" spectrum should have no interests AFAIK in in core channel analog LP's. And given the "rules" on it presently(LP stations which may cause interefernce to the new services are required to "get off" that frequency per a notifcation proceedure/etc specified in the rules) , it would seem to me they should also not have much concern regarding post (full service) transistion analog or digital LP operations on those on out-of-core channels either, since LP broadcasters must vacate(whether they are operating analog or digital) those IF they're going to cause interference ...
Of course, we all know many "groups" will of course lobby for their cause no matter how small the "details" involved .... For instance, Why not, perhaps alliviate the need to send a "letter" of notification to LP broadcasters that they'll be soon providing new wireless services+the LP involved will need to cease operations if they can find a way to not have to do that ... I wonder what will cost them more though, all the lobbying efforts, or what they'd need to do to come up with something like those notifcation "letters" .....
As I stated above, I fully expect, due to lobbying efforts and time limitations and the FCC's own internal timetable, there will be a definite LP shutdown date in the R&O and from what I can deduce from conversations I have had with several people with better connections than myself and some as late as last week, you will see a Feb 17, 2009 date on LP's. Now WILL the the FCC actually do that? Politics has strange bedfellows. Place your bets.
I wouldn't want to bet on that one either way
We will soon see, I suppose, at least Hopefully soon! .... Until then, I'll continue to base my comments on the issue on what is "on record" so far, as well as on common sense+what has progressed so far .....
I suppose I might feel a little differently if I had seen any mention of a 2/17/09 LP analog shut off date through the "grapevine" such as in various reputable "broadcasting" related publications, as which occured concerning FCC mandating PSIP in 2nd DTV review R&O......
The FCC is obviously issuing LP digital CP's.
Yes, but they've done NOTHING so far I've seen that REQUIRES LP stations to go digital by any specific date. Other than nebulous statements that at some future point yet to be detirmined LP's will have to convert to digital ....
So far, from what I have seen the LP DTV transistion is really JUST getting started and has been all about allowing LP's to "seek" digital allocations, not "requiring" them to do so ....
Coming out with someting in Summer or Fall 2007 that requires LP's to go digital in 18 months just seems to me to be asking/requiring a little too much of them, especially given what's been put "on record" regarding LP DTV transistion SO far, AND what has actually occured with DTV LP's so far in the real world ...for instance, in my area, perhaps the most commercially important LP(a Class A station) has it's digital companion channel app "in limbo" due to mutual exclusivity issues, and no LP in the area is broadcasting in digital as of yet .... Other than a flash cut app for a TBN translator granted in Fall 2006, all the other DTV CP's that have been granted in my area have occured in the past few months, and it took at least 6 months between the time the apps were filed to when they were granted ...
And especially given the digital companion channel thing, and especially given that we have more than enough on the plate regarding full service stations+analog shut off on Feb 17, 2009!
In all honesty, full power stations that renowned their analog licenses prior to the setting of the Feb 17, 2009 date have 2010 and 2011 and maybe even 2012 as their expiration dates and we both know THAT is NOT a valid date now but it is still there.
Yes, but we have a valid, "on record" hard shut off date for analog full service stations which took years to "hammer out" .....
I have told you all I know and can. Believe what you want. I won't hold it against you.
Thanks for the info. I'm not debating or arguing with you here. I'm seeking more info+attemting to provide accurate info regarding the info "on record" that is available, as well as to hopefully help explain why I (currently) think the way I do on this ....
I'm mostly doing this because, So up until the time we do have some "defacto info" on this, when someone asks "what will become of the analog LP stations" after feb 2009? (I've seen that question asked here several times recently), I can provide them with better info .....
Now, when someone asks that, in addition to the info which is "on record" I am aware of, I can also say "but Foxeng thinks LP analogs are going to have to transistion to digital on Feb 17, 2009," and I can also perhaps provide them with a link to your posts here regarding your reasoning on that ....
I don't remember the exact dates of the filing windows for the LP CP's (prior to the setting of the Feb 17 date if I remember correctly and certainly the 2004 LP rules set those windows and conditions and so the current CP's being issued are based on that ruling not anything that happened after.
Not exactly. The LP DTV rules as set forth in the 2004 LP DTV R&O were for the most part the *first* rules put into place to allow LP's to go digital. They are the *only* rules for LP DTV I'm aware of that we have at present, and for the most part were necessary for the LP's to have a way to go digital. If I recall correctly, those rules didn't actually go "into effect" until sometime early in 2005, it was soon after that when FCC issued a public notice stating the LP's could begin filing flash cut apps(which for the most part they can pretty much do at any time, I believe).
They didn't set the filing window for digital companion channels in the 2004 LP DTV R&O, instead they said the filing windows for that would be set when the channel election procedure for full service stations had "progressed significantly" enough. That didn't occur until the april 2006 public notice I provided a link to earlier in this thread. Many of the applications for digital companion channels filed for in that 2006 filing window(The filing window was for June 19~30, 2006) are STILL being hashed out due to "mutual exclusivity" issues, and some of those apps may proceed to auction #85, which has not yet been scheduled.
Here's paragraph #133 from the 2004 LP DTV R&O regarding filing for on-channel LP digital conversions (flash cuts)
Originally Posted by paragraph 133 from 2004 LP DTV R&O
133. We will permit existing stations to file digital on-channel conversion applications at any time following the effective date of the rule changes in this proceeding and Office of Management and Budget approval of revisions to the application form necessary to accommodate digital requests. No commenter advocates that we delay opportunities to file such applications. Because such filings do not involve the use of new channels, we do not find it necessary to wait until certain issues surrounding the DTV transition of full-service broadcasters have been resolved. Existing low power broadcasters that wish to immediately convert to digital on their analog channel may do so or they may wait until a later time to determine if additional channels are available.
Follows is info on Filing window for digital companion channels from 2004 LP DTV R&O :
Originally Posted by portions of paragraph 159 from LP DTV R&O
159. We agree that it is desirable to provide opportunities to obtain digital companion channels as soon as possible. We also believe, however, we should wait until there is additional clarity in the full-service television transition before accepting applications for new digital service, other than through on-channel conversion. After the DTV channel election process for full-service broadcasters has sufficiently progressed, it will become clearer what channels may be available for digital LPTV and TV translator stations. The majority of full-service broadcasters will be making their channel election during the first phase of the process scheduled to occur in December 2004. Subsequently, the Media Bureau will announce by Public Notice the window filing opportunity for digital companion channels and will, at a later date, establish parameters for the filing of additional applications.
Again, I provided The link to the public notice from April 2006 that opened the first filing window in Late June 2006 for digital LP companion channels in an earlier post.
And yes, I agree, if a LP gets a companion channel now, it makes little sense to built it out if they plan on going back to their analog channel. The FCC needs to address that and hopefully in the R&O they will. Now if they intend to stay on the digital channel, then get it built and then wait to shutdown the analog. That is my opinion for full power stations too in the same situation as well.
Given what FCC has done *SO* far regarding LP DTV, including regarding digital companion channels, a 2-17-09 shut off date for analog LP stations makes little sense, IMO.
True, it's an entirely different ball of wax, given they are a secondary service, AND given the DTV tuner mandate+that more and more OTA viewers now(or will soon have) DTV receivers -- but in regards to the "fairness" to LP operators as related to what FCC *HAS* done and said so far regarding LP analog shut off, and regarding common sense involving what *has* happened so far with LP DTV : A LP analog shut off date of Feb 17, 2009 === even if it comes out Tomorrow in an R&O would seem to be asking a little too much of the LP stations to require them to convert to digtial by Feb 17, 2009 .... And would seem somewhat to me like if in about 1999, Congress changed the Full service analog shut off to a hard date around early 2001, BEFORE most stations were even required to be on the air with digital .....
Could it happen? Well, sure, stranger things have happened I suppose .... so, I probably wouldn't "bet on it" at this point one way or the other ....