The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread - Page 238

WNCF: 31 - adopted by NPRM

AMENDMENT OF SECTION 73.622(I), POST-TRANSITION TABLE OF DTV ALLOTMENTS, TELEVISION BROADCAST STATIONS, MONTGOMERY, ALABAMA. Substitution of channel 31 for channel 32 at Montgomery, Alabama for station WNCF(TV). (Dkt No. 11-137 RM-11637 ). Action by: Chief, Video Division, Media Bureau. Adopted: 08/15/2011 by NPRM. (DA No. 11-1414).

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-11-1414A1.pdf

It begins...

http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Rele...-11-1428A1.pdf

In response to a request from the wireless and cellular industry, the FCC has declared an immediate freeze on new applications for facilities on channel 51, has given channel 51 LPTV applicants 60 days to amend their applications to specify another channel, and will waive the rulemaking freeze for full power stations seeking to relocate off of channel 51.

6 MHz has effectively been taken from OTA television. So, if when the FCC implements its plan to take channels 31-50, does that also mean that channel 30 will also be taken so that wireless/cellular users have a buffer between their bought and paid for frequencies and OTA TV?

Hi,

Do we have a better answer to this request?

I have the answer for my area thanks to Larry (sfonair.htm)

Click to see headers SHF

I guess if the person is blind then RabbitEars won't tell him that. Expand WWOR and it shows 5-2 and 9-1. I'm not sure how one would make it any clearer.

I'm not aware of any other source that covers the whole country.

- Trip

Hi,

I responded with your comments and added mine.


SHF

The listing dropdowns are tied to the facility ID number, so there's really no way for me to split up subchannels like you suggest without doing a huge recoding of the whole page.

If channel sharing becomes the norm, I'm sure the FCC will adjust their database accordingly, which I will then have to work with.

- Trip

Isn't it odd that WNCF in Montgomery is switching to channel 31 when WGBC in Meridian MS also operates on DT channel 31? I think the two TXs are separated by only about 100 miles resulting in another seriously shortspaced situation. Meanwhile, channel 32 seems to be clear in central AL. I must be missing something....

Hi,

I have memorized most of the PSID vs. RF channels for my market, but there are times that others have asked what was on a specific RF channel. A easy question to answer with Larry's reverse list to ensure the correct answer.


Larry in his sfonair.htmp page links to

"Transmitter Channel Listing "

http://www.choisser.com/sfonair2.html

Which is the same information but sorted by RF channel number.

It really is not too difficult a data base exercise except you would have to do it for all the markets and need to handle many more updates. When would you rebuild the reverse list for each market?

When 32+ really starts to disappear and PSID sub channels start to shift to different RF channel numbers like the current given example, then the reverse table will really be in need.

Larry's reverse table has every PSID expanded, nothing to click on except the link to the FCC entry. So nothing to expand and IMHO having everything expanded already would be understood quicker.

I am not suggesting that you do anything but perhaps think about the problem. A single link for each market to the reverse table for that market would be the only change in the page.

SHF

I already have a sort by physical channel function, I just have it hidden mostly because I have no idea how to code anything with JavaScript in order to make it accessible in the way I want. For example, here's SF:

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.ph...rting=physical

If, instead of clicking and dropping down the market, you open the market in a new tab or new window, it will give you the option immediately below the search box to sort by physical channel. I know it's very well hidden and in a really lousy place, but I just don't know how to put it anywhere else that I want to. (I do a lot of the coding these days, but the main listings dropdown stuff was Bruce's handywork, not mine.)

What I can't do is make it so you expand out WNYW and see 5-1 on 44 and 5-2 on 38. That I can't do.

- Trip

Hi,

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.ph...rting=physical

> That I can't do.

But you have already done it all!

I am NOT suggesting that you change those pages! Well, perhaps put the Physical Channel as the first column. My mind keeps getting messed up as I am used to Larry's RF channel page.

When you click on "Expand/Contract All", which is in the wrong place and displays too much "noise" which is OK as a button (which is exactly the current "Print All" ) should be added and labeled "press for cleaner list" would produce a page of the information without the noise.

And if you click on "Print All" (also in the wrong place) you generate exactly what I am suggesting is needed (Less "noise" in the form of the station names which are in BOLD and should be removed.) This is a third page.

(In the future a transmitter may be owned jointly by the content providers just like Sutro is owned by several TV stations now.)

I can for see two stations on one Transmitter providing 16:9 content like their main streams and their additionally streams in SD on another transmitter.

So, the job is really done and is ready for general use if there are no problems with other markets. (Add "Sort by RF Channel Numbers" next to "Expand/Contract All" / "Print All" for to access the second sort page from the normal PSID sort page.)

SHF

SHF,
I think you are suggesting a fundamental change to how rabbitears works. Lists like Larry's are static - the information conveyed is fixed. Trip's site is built, rather, on the premise of discovering more information as you drill down. The "noise" you note when "expand all" is selected are links to further technical details. This construct is tremndously powerful in helping users find any technical detail they might think of with regards to facilities.

Using PSID as a key violates this construct and would lead to confusion. The "print all" feature gives you what you want. Enjoy.

If I'm under standing SHF's argument, and I'm not 100% sure that I am, I think this is correct. RabbitEars is, in a lot of ways, structured in a way that's supposed to make it useful to everybody but especially useful for engineering types.


I always forget about the Print All link because I never use it, but you're right. I completely forgot that it is sorted by subchannel rather than by display channel number bound to the facility ID.


And most of my readers do not want the RF channel first. Most TV sets do not use the RF channel for their on-screen display.


I'm not sure what you mean by "in the wrong place" on these features. I'm also not sure what you mean by "too much noise" since it actually only expands out the subchannel information and not any of the transmitter details, something I actually wish it did but I've been completely unsuccessful in making it do, given my previously mentioned complete lack of knowledge or understanding of JavaScript.

Are you saying that you want the Print All page to display nothing but subchannels? That would make questions like the very one you forwarded here significantly harder for people to understand.


And should that become the norm rather than a rare occurrence as it is now, then I will come up with a way to deal with it.


As I said, I don't know anything about JavaScript, so "just adding a button" is a lot harder than you think that it is. I did want to add a way to sort by physical channel number, thus why the feature exists as I linked, I just have no clue how to make it work the way it would need to in order to put it on that page in the way that you want it.

- Trip

Hi,

Static pages of information are useful for understanding some things, and discarding information also helps in some cases. Trip is already generating the needed static pages, they are called "Print" pages.

> the premise of discovering more information as you drill down.

That is just fine and is a good plan for most of Trip's pages.

It just is when "Expand/Contract All" is clicked on the user is starting to ask different questions and the data needs to be filtered to allow a quicker understanding.

I am working on a visual sample that does not have the overwhelming amount of noise. I would have done it by now but other things needed my attention. (And I lost most of the text for that post and I must start over (Darn old Software running on OS's it was not tested on.)

> The "print all" feature gives you what you want.

YES, that is just what is needed and I will be pointing this out in some responses.

But the most useful "Print" page is currently not available as the RF channel sort "Print" page is not available because the RF sort page is not.

The RF sort page IMHO should be available by clicking on a button placed on the Main "Digital TV Market Listings" page, perhaps right next to "Expand/Contract All" and display only for the selected market.

Note! For the Rabbitears pages, buttons are underlined text strings that do things.

> Using PSID as a key violates this construct and would lead to confusion.

Good grief Charlie Brown, most OTA television viewers are most familiar with PSID as that is all that the vast majority ever sees. It's from those persons that the concept of RF channels not being understood results in most questions.

I think that you are responding to an error in my original post(s), I was thinking RF and typed PSID. Sorry.

The Main "Digital TV Market Listings" page expanded is in PSID order.

SHF

Hi,

Here is the essence of how the "Expand" should look IMHO.



The display is a mix of two types of entries, each with their own column headings.

Which column heading apply to a line in the data is determined by the line background color which is matched in the corresponding column heading background color at the top.

YES, K14MW-D in pink is a problem, but the absence of any yellow lines for it indicates that it is not on the air and can be safely ignored.

The box lines in the two different column heading descriptions at the top disappeared because of the way I prepared the sample. They should return.

Please understand that this is just a mockup, the actual display would look better and require some more color changes. Perhaps that is good to bring to the viewers attention that the page is different from the other site pages.

An option to restore the click able "Technical Data and Screencaps" and "Historical, Ownership, Transition, and Translator Data" is a possibility.

The current format draws my eyes to the repeated column heading descriptions way too much and are a major distraction!

SHF

The secondary column heading either has to be in with the individual listings, or gone completely. Some stations have an "Hours" column that I hide if the station does not use it to save space. See a station like W47EE-D, which I have attached.



As you can see in the image, I have some management tools built into that secondary column header as well. I'd have to find new homes for those controls.

As for hiding the Technical Data and Historical Data lines, I'm not sure how much that really helps matters. If anything, in my mind, it makes them harder to find and might mislead people into thinking there is less data available. You might be surprised how many people actually do want to know what a station's power or coverage area or bitrate is. I see those items cited about as often on message boards and web pages as I do the subchannel listings themselves, and I'm not sure hiding that information really helps that much.

All of that said, of late I've been working on a project which might help to alleviate your concerns, or you might feel that it goes too far. I'm not prepared to do a public release yet and may not be able to for some time, but if you're interested in having a very early look, send me a PM and I'll give you a link.

I'm genuinely curious about the opinions of others; do others feel as SHF does that the main listings need work in this fashion?

- Trip

Zeroth , THANKS TRIP for what you have done

First, I've not tried this on rabbitears.

Spreadsheets are wonderful tools. I use Excel, and ASSUME it works in openoffice CALC.

Mark the unsorted or missorted data
paste special text into a spreadsheet
sort as you wish

common thing for me to do with all sorts of stuff the provider makes available but not as I want it ... can be made to work about 90% of the time.

George

Hi,

Please understand that I am thinking about the reaction of a viewer that see these pages for the very first time, I was in that set as it has been many blue moons since my last visit due to Larry's great work for my local market.

The UseNet discussion was a set of bad information, links to untrustworthy sites and ended only when I gave a link to Rabbitears saying that what I really wanted to link to was not available. (RF Sort)

-----------------------------------

> The secondary column heading either has to be in with the individual listings, or gone completely.

Clicking on an individual station is and should be a path to more information about that single station. (Drill down was the term used.) A individual station where "Technical Data and Screencaps" and "Historical, Ownership, Transition, and Translator Data" would be of interest.

It is when the users switch to expanded that it's like a bucket of mud has been thrown at the screen.

At that point the interest has shifted to the entire set of stations, and I am looking for removing the mud, if "secondary column heading gone completely" is an option, I would like to see a mockup of that to further refine my comments.

> Some stations have an "Hours" column that I hide if the station does not use it to save space. See a station like W47EE-D, which I have attached.

Changing (11p-09p) (09p-11p) to (11PM-09PM) (09PM-11PM) would make eliminating the "secondary column heading" less of a problem.

> As you can see in the image, I have some management tools built into that secondary column header as well. I'd have to find new homes for those controls.

It has been my thinking that they are in the wrong place right from the start.

Once a market is chosen then the displays should be limited to that market with a method to return to that page. New windows are created at times, that possibility should be in the mix. That may simplify the moving of controls to new homes.

The "secondary column heading" description I have seen most often as a static information pane outside of the data array, I moved it to one occurrence in my mockup but totally outside of the data array at all times is a better and simpler solution.

" As for hiding the Technical Data and Historical Data lines, I'm not sure how much that really helps matters. If anything, in my mind, it makes them harder to find and might mislead people into thinking there is less data available. You might be surprised how many people actually do want to know what a station's power or coverage area or bitrate is. I see those items cited about as often on message boards and web pages as I do the subchannel listings themselves, and I'm not sure hiding that information really helps that much."

The Dummy's guide to Rabitears book would need to be updated to address the presenting of more data as the site is "drilled down into" and the market pages are the pages I would link to most often I suspect.

-----------------------------

New first time viewer:

1) open http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php

Very good first page, well presented, the user now understands that the data is organized by "Digital TV Markets" and their market can be found by selecting their major city or a station in their market.

Some will be taken off into the wilderness by clicking on the number in the "Rank" column, I will ignore this and the duplicate numbers with "()".

2A) If they use the "Call Sign" option they are taken to their market and that station. Having the "secondary column heading" description displayed is just fine. Still a very good page, well presented but the first time viewer may have problems understanding how to get to "2B) and why they would want to.

2B) If they click on their major city they are taken to their market. Still a very good page, well presented, and they can see all the stations in their market.

3) They click on "Expand/Contract All". Very bad news!!! What do their eyes see but a huge amount of noise overpowering the data!

My mockup would be much more useful in that the sub-channels for their market are all displayed and they can begin to understand what really is going on.

An alternative is to re-label the "Print" button (Which does not print the page on a real printer like most other web pages I see do.) to indicate that is a page with the noise filtered out.

That is a much better page to display to the viewer when they click on "Expand/Contract All".

A button could then lead to the very noisy page that is currently display saying "Press for detailed information about the entire set of stations in their market".

I have to do other things right now and wish to wait a bit for other ideas to be posted.

SHF

Unless someone is expanding all of them to compare coverage areas and/or bitrates, in which case they will have to Contract All, then click each entry and then click each "Technical Data" link, instead of now where you can Expand All once and then click to expand the Technical Data you want. So those users now have to click twice instead of once to get to the information/link they actually want. It makes things harder in that use case, one which I use a lot personally and which I know others use as well.

Plus, you're asking for one link to go to two different things depending on context. Bear in mind that once a market is loaded up, it is loaded in full; all that clicking the call sign or Expand All link(s) do(es) is to "unhide" things that are hidden by default once the market in question is loaded up.


Easy to say for the person who wouldn't have to hand-edit each entry which has hours in it. (Hours is not only a primary key in the database, it's a VARCHAR string; it's not like the bitrate numbers in the technical data that are just FLOAT numbers and "Mbps" is added in PHP.) Plus it chews up more horizontal space, which is why I chose the lower-case single-letter format in the first place.

I mean, I could do it, it just wouldn't be fun.


I completely don't understand what you're saying here. Please try to clarify when time permits, as I would like to understand what you're saying.


I've actually thought about moving it in the past but I can never get it to look right. I allow my columns to be fluid in terms of width in order to allow for maximization of the use of available space, so moving the secondary column heading to the top would mean the columns in the heading often would not align with the columns in one or more of the individual station listings and would (in my opinion) look sloppy and disorganized.


There is no book. I feel the moment a website needs a book to be operated, it has failed. (Parts of RabbitEars that are not the market listings already fail on that account. Just last night I finally added a key to the coverage contour/Longley-Rice map pages, and I still don't have a full set of controls on that page.)


There's nothing I hate more than clicking a "Printer-friendly" button on a web page for it to do nothing more than have my print dialog come up. If I wanted a print dialog, I'd have clicked the Print button in my browser. I click a "Printer-friendly" button hoping to see a less busy version of a page that I can then choose to print myself once I'm sure it won't waste paper and ink/toner printing in a manner that is unhelpful to me.

In my mind, it operates exactly the way a button labeled "Print" on a webpage should operate. It even gives you a nice "true" Print button front-row center in case you can't find your browser's Print button. Maybe I should relabel the button as "Send to Printer." Hm.


Fair enough.

And lest I appear unappreciative, I appreciate and am glad to hear your suggestions for improvement. I often take suggestions or modify them in some way and then implement them, but it's certainly not an always thing. I do, however, always take them under consideration and put thought into them, as I'm doing with your suggestions.

One thing to keep in mind is that I feel you're looking at it from the "new to OTA" perspective, or something similar. (I cannot find the exact phrase I'm looking for.) A significant number of my users are engineers or people with interest in the engineering side of things, including people within the FCC and at television stations and engineering firms. I don't want to make things significantly harder on that group in order to make things slightly simpler for people who are sort of "passing by" as it were. What I sent in the PM is designed to deal with the "new to OTA" (or whatever it is I mean to call it) group.

I would also like to hear the opinions of others on this matter.

- Trip

Hi,

I think that we are having a fail to communicate problem.

Let's let it rest for a while.

If I see an need to direct someone to your site to help them learn about PSID vs. RF channels in their market, I will be directing them directly to the "Printer Friendly" page.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.ph...market&mktid=6

And then suggest that if that does not enable their understanding, that they go to:

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php and select their market being warned that they will now be in the deep end of the pool.

If and when the RF sort "Printer Friendly" pages become available for general use I will switch to those if better to help the OP understand the answer.

In the meantime, I think that I can generate a link to the RF sort "Printer Friendly" pages for most any market and may do so. (Testing first to make sure I did it right, you may change things as the needs have been few and far between. When 32+ goes away, the need will become much greater as it will be a madhouse making we who understand rotate our heads several times before they come off.)

I have worked with many great programmers over the last 40 years and they IMHO would react just like I have. You are so good that at some point you will start to react in the same way.

SHF

P.S. (Page generated in 1314309722.06 seconds. ) It sure did not take that long.

I just returned from a three week tour of the British Isles - England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. 95% of the TV antennas seen there were small UHF yagis with flat reflector screens. There was very little variation all over the four countries. Most homes had either an OTA antenna or satellite dish or both. In one small area of Ireland I noticed five element VHF yagis that were vertically mounted. At first I thought they were two meter ham antennas, but there were too many of them, so they had to be TV.

All of our hotels, except one, had wide screen TVs, and many of the channels were in HD. I don't know what format they use, but it looks good.

One final comment... thanks to SFischer for the nice compliments on my DTV Channel lists. They are made simple for use by the average viewer. Trip's listings have got mine beat 100 fold.

Larry
SF

The vertical antennas that you saw were for the old VHF 405 line broadcasts, which have ceased. The UHF are smaller as the UHF broadcasts are in channel groups in the various areas, allowing for the viewers to purchase antennas cut for their local area channel group.


1080i25 for the HD. The SD video is anamorphic widescreen 576i.

The U.K. has been widescreen for years.

Thanks very much for the info, Mr. Video.

Larry
SF

You are welcome. I was there (east coast of Scotland) from Aug '71 through Nov '73, when 405 line was still widely used.

There was one time that I put a rabbit ear antenna above the ceiling and ran RG-58 or 59 (I forget which), downstairs to the RF room and patched it up to the repair room. We then set up three oscilloscopes and two receivers. Why? So we could watch an episode of Columbo. And yes, you can turn oscilloscopes into the necessary V & H sweeps and the 3rd getting the outputs from the other two and the video for the Z.

What sucked was that we got interrupted for a problem out on the floor.

Your military tax $$$ at work

That is 100% false. MPEG-4, aka H.264, does not require more bandwidth than MPEG-2. You can actually fit two H.264 video streams into the same bandwidth as MPEG-2.

H,.264 is twice as efficient as MPEG-2. One could fit two H.264 HD program streams into the same 6 MHz ATSC channel that is currently being used for one MPEG-2 HD stream.

back in 1949 i used a radar receiver and an oscilloscope to watch a baseball game on tv in SF.
mit

It occurred in parts of Canada.  It didn't reach the territories nor Labrador, nor the less populated areas; and if one goes takes literally the listing at the page whose link Sebenste gave, it didn't reach the Saskatchewan side of Lloydminster, but I don't believe that.

Hi,

I found these words in that page:


So, TV channels will be disappearing from Canada also.

SHF

What ever we do, they do.

So, in Mexico, are they saying... Spectrum? Spectrum?? We don't need no stinking spectrum!