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PS3 and DTS-HD MA: is it really planned? - Page 2  

post #31 of 208
11/22/07 at 7:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

Yes, I mentioned something like that in a another post; the newer PS3s could have the newer chip. I don't know the answer. Somebody needs to pop open a new one and list some chip part numbers.

larry

I began taking my 40GB apart last night only to discover they are using secure/tamper proof torx screws. So I dropped by Lowes this morning to pick up a set of tamper proof torx drivers, but of course they were closed due to Thanksgiving. Oh well, I'll drop back by tomorrow to pick up a set so I can complete the job. I had to remove the seal to get to that first torx, so there is no going back now!

I'll be looking for the SilVastlane 9134 HDMI transmitter chip as opposed to the SilVastlane 9132 which we know is what is in the 20GB and 60GB units, right?

Do we know that the Samsung 1400, which can do bitstream, uses the 9134?

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post #32 of 208
11/22/07 at 7:42am
I'll answer my own question as I forgot that I took pictures of my 1400 before returning it.



Yes, it does indeed have the 9134!
post #33 of 208
11/22/07 at 7:59am
It seems there is a lot of misinformation about the 9132 Vs 9134 chip. This post is the best I've seen addressing this. AFAIK, there is no proof or specs stating that the 9132 cant do bitstreaming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Here are the specifics:

The HDMI ver. 1.3 transmitter chip in the PS3 is manufactured by Silicon Image and is their part number: SiL9132. This is not part of their commercial HDMI chip offerings and they do not currently publish on their web site a spec. sheet for this chip. This chip was sold by Silcon Image specifically to Sony for the PS3 and this was their first product to have a HDMI Ver. 1.3 interface. A short time later Silcon Image introduced their mainstream SiL9134 chip which is now being widely used in consumer electonics devices including standalone BD and HD-DVD players. The details for the SIL9134 is available from their web site HERE.

As described in this article, the SiL9134 was announced by Silicon Image as their first commercial HDMI ver. 1.3 transmitter chip offered (as the SiL9132 was producted specifically for Sony). This announcement was published on Oct 1, 2006 which was about 7 weeks before the PS3 went on sale, so the SiL9134 may be, or not be, really different from the SiL9132 used in the PS3 (the SiL9132 may just be the Sony OEM version of the SiL9134 -or- the SiL9134 might include some enhancments).

There has been speculation, but no specific information released by either Silicon Image nor Sony of the bitstreaming capabilities, or limitations, of the SiL9132. What limited official info that has been released on the SiL9132 did not specifically mention support for bitstream output of the advanced lossless audio formats while the full spec. sheet for the SiL9134 does mention this capability. Several people posting on various forums (including AVS) have incorrectly posted speculation as if it were fact, that the SiL9132 does not support this feature that is supported by the SiL9134. Many such postings have cited as proof other earlier postings or blogs that in fact provided no proof for such claims. I have not found any posting that links back to any authorative source either at Silicon Image or at Sony and these are the only two sources that truly know what their products can or cannot do. If anyone has such proof let's see it.

Ron Jones
www.dtvmax.com

SiI9132
VastLane HDMI Transmitter 1 1080p 36 bits/pixel 6.75 Gbps game consoles

SiI9134
VastLane HDMI Transmitter 1 1080p 36 bits/pixel 6.75 Gbps DVD players/recorders,STBs

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post12245068
post #34 of 208
11/22/07 at 7:59am
Here's the post I was looking for yesterday: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post10684529 A 9134 will be needed in the source (player).

larry
post #35 of 208
11/22/07 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kschmit2 View Post

Paidgeek posted this about the prospect of DTS-HD Master Audio on the PS3:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9827584

Wow, a year old post, that is really relavent. Seeing as the electronics industry never changes or anything. Thanks for the current info!
post #36 of 208
11/22/07 at 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosman22 View Post

Wow, a year old post, that is really relavent. Seeing as the electronics industry never changes or anything. Thanks for the current info!

Actually, given that it's from Paidgeek, it's probably the only important piece of info on this subject
post #37 of 208
11/22/07 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

Here's the post I was looking for yesterday: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post10684529 A 9134 will be needed in the source (player).

larry

That post says nothing about the 9132, it only says that you will need a 9134. Many have speculated that the 9134 is a re-badged 9132 made for standalone players, based on the info re-posted in this thread by sjm817. If that were true, it would be no different than having the 9134.

Again, this is all speculation at this point, NOBODY knows for sure whether the PS3 (any version) can bistream or not, atleast, as far as what is actually known.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dweltman View Post

Actually, given that it's from Paidgeek, it's probably the only important piece of info on this subject

I don't think he was questioning the source, he was questioning the relevance of a year old statement that nothing is happening about DTS-MA decoding in the PS3. That might have been true a year ago, but now?
post #38 of 208
11/22/07 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pclausen View Post

I began taking my 40GB apart last night only to discover they are using secure/tamper proof torx screws. So I dropped by Lowes this morning to pick up a set of tamper proof torx drivers, but of course they were closed due to Thanksgiving. Oh well, I'll drop back by tomorrow to pick up a set so I can complete the job. I had to remove the seal to get to that first torx, so there is no going back now!

I'll be looking for the SilVastlane 9134 HDMI transmitter chip as opposed to the SilVastlane 9132 which we know is what is in the 20GB and 60GB units, right?

Do we know that the Samsung 1400, which can do bitstream, uses the 9134?

thank you. Please keep us inform of your progress. It'd be interesting if the newer ps3 turns out to have the 9134 chip AND only those will get HBR (assuming the 9132 can't do HBR, which is uncertain at this point). Damn, that'd piss alot of ps3 owners off. Sony might not allow HBR at all if that's the case.
post #39 of 208
11/22/07 at 1:02pm
I certainly hope it would, but if not, I'll enjoy my Panasonic 30k
post #40 of 208
11/22/07 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaynardJames View Post

That post says nothing about the 9132, it only says that you will need a 9134. Many have speculated that the 9134 is a re-badged 9132 made for standalone players, based on the info re-posted in this thread by sjm817. If that were true, it would be no different than having the 9134.

Again, this is all speculation at this point, NOBODY knows for sure whether the PS3 (any version) can bistream or not, atleast, as far as what is actually known.



I don't think he was questioning the source, he was questioning the relevance of a year old statement that nothing is happening about DTS-MA decoding in the PS3. That might have been true a year ago, but now?

IIRC, there's another thread somewhere that linked to that above post that was stating the PS3 has the 9132. I haven't opened mine (it's an early one) and I probably won't because I don't need (or want) bitstream over HDMI. The PS3 is perfectly capable of decoding the DTS-MA data. In the end, as always, it's not over till it's over.

larry
post #41 of 208
11/22/07 at 4:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

IIRC, there's another thread somewhere that linked to that above post that was stating the PS3 has the 9132. I haven't opened mine (it's an early one) and I probably won't because I don't need (or want) bitstream over HDMI. The PS3 is perfectly capable of decoding the DTS-MA data. In the end, as always, it's not over till it's over.

larry

I've seen a picture of the PS3 circuit board with the 9132 chip. Someone posted it. What I haven't seen is a spec for this chip.
post #42 of 208
11/22/07 at 5:36pm
Right, based on what's in this thread so far, I'm inclined to think the 9132 is just the part given to Sony, and the 9134 is a separate (but identical) part for other companies. If there were a way to get specs on the 9132 we could put this whole bitstream business to rest for good...
post #43 of 208
11/23/07 at 1:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

IIRC, there's another thread somewhere that linked to that above post that was stating the PS3 has the 9132. I haven't opened mine (it's an early one) and I probably won't because I don't need (or want) bitstream over HDMI. The PS3 is perfectly capable of decoding the DTS-MA data. In the end, as always, it's not over till it's over.

larry

Yes, it has been established that the PS3 has the 9132 chip, but what hasn't been established is the actual capabilities and/or limitations of that chip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkedgex View Post

Right, based on what's in this thread so far, I'm inclined to think the 9132 is just the part given to Sony, and the 9134 is a separate (but identical) part for other companies. If there were a way to get specs on the 9132 we could put this whole bitstream business to rest for good...

That is a definate possibilty, and hopefully is the case, but until we get those specs, who knows.
post #44 of 208
11/23/07 at 4:47am
I guess it's looking at the glass as half full or half empty. It' funny how you can't get the specs from Silicon Image's site although if the part was superseded I guess that would be the reason. Coming out with a chip that supported deep color and not the hidef bitstreams would make perfect sense for use in game consoles because they are probably going to be the only thing that really could use deep color (besides PCs). It's quite possible Sony and SI made some deal to get a 1.3 part ASAP. It's almost a moot issue because passing the bitstreams is not necessary.

larry
post #45 of 208
11/23/07 at 10:01am
If I might add another example, a long time ago Denon launched the DVD-2900, a DVD/SACD/DVD-A player that used a DAC from Burr-Brow. The DAC in question was called DSD1790, and to this day, there has not been any datasheet or precise performance information about that custom chip that was exclusive for Denon.
If this Silicon Image chip is also exclusive made for Sony, there is a very big chance we will never, ever get a datasheet saying what it can do or not, much less being able to say if it is a version of the late 9134 or a more limited part.

The most we will ever know, if Sony gives us bitstreaming capability for advanced codecs, is that it can do it too...

Allan
post #46 of 208
11/23/07 at 12:38pm
I picked up a set of tamper proof torx bits and was finally able to pry my 40GB PS3 apart. Here's the aftermath:



Closeup of HDMI transmitter:



So it looks like Sony is trucking along with the 9132 chip, including their latest console. At least it will be all or none as far as any current PS3 being able to bitstream DTS MA via a future firmware upgrade. In a way I think this is good news. Surely Sony would have shifted to a newer hdmi chip by now if the 9132 wasn't up to the task of lossless bitstreaming, no?
post #47 of 208
11/23/07 at 2:05pm
Nice pics. Does it still work? Also, googling on the part number I see there is a sil9132cbu-hd. (for whatever it's worth)

larry
post #48 of 208
11/23/07 at 2:26pm
wow thanks for the pics...i guess you've confirmed that the latest ps3 still uses the 9132 chip. I hope these can do bitstream.
post #49 of 208
11/23/07 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

Does it still work?
larry

Sure does! I really like the way the PS3 comes apart and back together now that I've done it first hand.
post #50 of 208
11/23/07 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cambrian View Post

..9132 chip. I hope these can do bitstream.

Me too!
post #51 of 208
11/23/07 at 3:13pm
Why? Bitstream gains nothing over internal decoding sent as LPCM? We all know what's lost (secondary sounds, etc), which one may or may not deem important...

I just hope the PS3 does DTS-HDMA decoding itself. Bitstraem would be nice gravy, but definitely secondary to internal decoding.
post #52 of 208
11/23/07 at 3:33pm
No one is talking about whether bitstreaming is equal to pcm. It's just great to have the bistreaming option available in case the dts hd ma decoding thing doesn't pan out.
post #53 of 208
11/23/07 at 5:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cambrian View Post

No one is talking about whether bitstreaming is equal to pcm. It's just great to have the bistreaming option available in case the dts hd ma decoding thing doesn't pan out.

I thought I read some time ago that internal decoding of audio formats was in the specs for both HD-DVD and Blu-ray players.
post #54 of 208
11/23/07 at 7:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post

I thought I read some time ago that internal decoding of audio formats was in the specs for both HD-DVD and Blu-ray players.

Internal decoding of Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD is required by the HD-DVD specification.

Decoding of audio formats other than Dolby Digital and DTS 5.1 is optional on Blu-ray. Most newer Blu-ray players can decode TrueHD, but so far none can decode DTS-HD MA.

New receivers from Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer, and Yamaha do have DTS-HD MA decoding, but you need a Blu-ray player that can output the DTS-HD MA bitstream over HDMI 1.3 to take advantage of that. Thus far, only the Panasonic BD30, Pioneer Elite BDP-95HD, and Samsung BD-P1400 can do that.
post #55 of 208
11/24/07 at 6:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

Why? Bitstream gains nothing over internal decoding sent as LPCM? We all know what's lost (secondary sounds, etc), which one may or may not deem important...

Well, I would think that enabling bitstream will be a lot easier than deconding internally. My pre/pro (Onkyo 885) and avr (Denon 3808) are both already capable of decoding lossless bitstream, and I really enjoyed being able to do that with my Samsung 1400, especially on my Fox titles. And while I know it should not sound any different compared to being decoded by the player, there have been some reports here that it does to them. And then there is the cool factor of having that DTS-MA or Dolby TrueHD light come on on the pre/pro or avr. My A35 can also pass lossless and I always choose to let that player pass TrueHD as lossless to my pre/pro rather than letting it decode it internally.

In my view, by having players that can pass the bitstream over HDMI, you get a lower data rate over your HDMI connection(s) and you're spreading the work out over 2 pieces of equipment (player decodes the video, receiver decodes the audio).
post #56 of 208
11/24/07 at 8:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Internal decoding of Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD is required by the HD-DVD specification.

Decoding of audio formats other than Dolby Digital and DTS 5.1 is optional on Blu-ray. Most newer Blu-ray players can decode TrueHD, but so far none can decode DTS-HD MA.

New receivers from Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer, and Yamaha do have DTS-HD MA decoding, but you need a Blu-ray player that can output the DTS-HD MA bitstream over HDMI 1.3 to take advantage of that. Thus far, only the Panasonic BD30, Pioneer Elite BDP-95HD, and Samsung BD-P1400 can do that.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.
post #57 of 208
11/24/07 at 12:07pm
Would not surprise me if the 9132 and the 9134 are the same internally. Looks like it is marked also with the SCEI, Sony Computer Entertainment Incorporated, mark.

If it is truly an HDMI 1.3 transmitter, then according to the HDMI organization it has the ability to transmit all of the features of HDMI1.3, but it is up to the manufacture to enable/disable features.

I have a feeling that the 9132 was specifically produced for Sony due for allocation and pricing reasons. Sony probably got a sweet deal since every PS3 has this SiL unit inside. A few million of PS3s in homes already, but probably less than a 100k of HD DVD and BD players with the 9134 currently.
post #58 of 208
11/24/07 at 3:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigW View Post

Would not surprise me if the 9132 and the 9134 are the same internally. Looks like it is marked also with the SCEI, Sony Computer Entertainment Incorporated, mark.

If it is truly an HDMI 1.3 transmitter, then according to the HDMI organization it has the ability to transmit all of the features of HDMI1.3, but it is up to the manufacture to enable/disable features.

I have a feeling that the 9132 was specifically produced for Sony due for allocation and pricing reasons. Sony probably got a sweet deal since every PS3 has this SiL unit inside. A few million of PS3s in homes already, but probably less than a 100k of HD DVD and BD players with the 9134 currently.

This is what I've also believed all along and now especially seeing that the 9132 is still being used 1yr later, I guarentee (but have nothing to back it up) that this chip is fully cabable of bitstreaming audio....however, I don't think Sony will turn it on anytime soon, I think they will get DTSHDMA internal decoding before bitstreaming and I doubt we'll ever see bitstreaming, but who knows.
post #59 of 208
11/24/07 at 3:51pm
Quote:


Why? Bitstream gains nothing over internal decoding sent as LPCM?

It should be pointed out that this opinion is held exclusively by those that have not actually HEARD bitstream hi-res audio decoded in receiver/processor.

As for why Sony still uses the 9132, even if it can't pass bitstream audio, Sony would be stupid to add a feature to only newer PS3s when all those earlier units can't do it. Not saying the 9132 CAN'T pass bitstream, only rebutting the argument that if Sony wanted additional capability, they would have used a newer chip.

BTW, I'm a guy who tries to rely on logical deduction in the absence of documented fact. Currently, the only data I have to go on is that neither Sony nor Silicon Image have been willing to say the 9132 CAN pass bitstream audio, and now, a year after the PS3 has been released, it still can't. Everyone can draw whatever conclusion their bias leads them to, but for me, I wanted bitstream audio capability so I bought a proper Blu-ray player (BD30), even though I have a PS3.

Lastly, I do happen to know DTS Master is coming to the PS3, but I have been told (not by someone at Sony) it will be internal decoding.
post #60 of 208
11/24/07 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert George View Post

It should be pointed out that this opinion is held exclusively by those that have not actually HEARD bitstream hi-res audio decoded in receiver/processor.

What kind of power cable do you have? Unlike the difference between lossless/lossy, there is simply no scientific basis for bitstreamed audio to sound any better than LCPM. None.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob George View Post

As for why Sony still uses the 9132, even if it can't pass bitstream audio, Sony would be stupid to add a feature to only newer PS3s when all those earlier units can't do it. Not saying the 9132 CAN'T pass bitstream, only rebutting the argument that if Sony wanted additional capability, they would have used a newer chip.

You're apparently ignorant of Sony's history on upgrading the PS2. There were numerous features found on the later releases that didn't make the earlier ones, from IR receivers to Hard Drive expansion bays to built in ethernet...

I could see the 9132 going either way but given the nature of secondary sound and the general trend towards decoding in the player, DTS-HDMA decoding is a near certainty. Bitstreaming... not so much, though it may. PS3 hardware is obviously more than up to the task of decoding DTS-HDMA... it's simply a matter of DTS getting the knowledge for a software decoder in the wild (and tested, etc etc).
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