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The *OFFICIAL* Vienna Acoustics Owners Thread - Page 39

post #1141 of 2890
hifisponge:

Have you ever used the services of a professional calibrator? And, if so, what are your thoughts on the merits of using a professional vs. DIY?

Ese'
post #1142 of 2890
bigred7078:

What's the latest on your turntable purchase?

Ese'
post #1143 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ese View Post

hifisponge:

Have you ever used the services of a professional calibrator? And, if so, what are your thoughts on the merits of using a professional vs. DIY?

Ese'

Yes, I have used a professional calibrator, and he is quite good at his job, but I can't really give a general answer about pro vs. DIY. It depends on the calibrator and the DIYer. I think that it is most important that the calibrator take the time to review the results with the client and make further adjustments until it sounds right to the client, even if that means the graph no longer looks as good. Of course with the DIYer, you have infinite flexibility as to what you do, but it takes a while to learn how to measure and relate the graphs to what you hear. In that regard, using sound analysis tools is like a hobby within a hobby.
post #1144 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ese View Post

bigred7078:

What's the latest on your turntable purchase?

Ese'

lol nothing yet either.

I decided to order materials for acoustic panels first, so those should arrive shortly
post #1145 of 2890
higisponge:

so it sounds like you do both--professional calibration and DIY calibration?

Ese'
post #1146 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ese View Post

higisponge:

so it sounds like you do both--professional calibration and DIY calibration?

Ese'

I had him come out a few times, but mostly to learn from him. I've had an interest in measurements and EQ for many years, so now I do most of it myself and only call on him when I need advice or another perspective.
post #1147 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

He may have designed the mid/woofs, but the tweet is a ScanSpeak design and is known for its excellent measured performance. From what I've read, the SS tweet that VA uses is "modified", but usually that just means they've adjusted the low frequency extension of the tweet to better match up with the desired cross-over point.

To further express my earlier point, frequency response measurements won't show you everything about the way a speaker will sound, but when setting up speakers it can save you a good amount of time in trying to narrow down some good locations. For instance, lets say you place your speakers where you think they would perform well, you listen to some music and they sound great, but what you don't realize (without measurements) is that there is a dip in the upper bass. An RTA would reveal this shortcomming quickly and you could then reposition the speakers or the listening position to reduce or eliminate the dip. Without the RTA, you may not know that you could get even better sound, or it may take weeks or months of listening before you notice that the bass sounds a bit uneven.

So I agree that the final decision needs to be confirmed by ear, but I think that the use of something like an RTA can shorten the amount of time it takes to get there.

Not trying to labor this, but an RTA is a very narrow focus device that doesn't seem to hit all of the critical issues all of the time. You may achieve more even frequency response, but have added in other distortions that negate any benefit. Typically, systems that have been setup using RTAs end up with smoothed over transient response and squashed dynamics. This may be exceptable for some, but it is not for me. To each his own.
post #1148 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Carr View Post

Not trying to labor this, but an RTA is a very narrow focus device that doesn't seem to hit all of the critical issues all of the time. You may achieve more even frequency response, but have added in other distortions that negate any benefit. Typically, systems that have been setup using RTAs end up with smoothed over transient response and squashed dynamics. This may be exceptable for some, but it is not for me. To each his own.

The use of an EQ is not required when using an RTA. You seem to be referring to the two interchangeably. The RTA is only a measuring device and is not a permanent part of the signal chain, and therefor it cannot affect things like transients and dynamics. And just to be clear, when I refer to an RTA, I use the term loosely. The software available these days is much more sophisticated than an RTA. RTA is just simpler to say.

In regards to EQ, all but the rare purist recordings have already been EQ'd and processed in a variety of ways during mastering, so the damage (if you wish to call it that) has already been done well before you even place the CD in your player. But that is a topic for another thread.

In the end, I'm not here to argue the merits of taking a purist / subjective approach to setting up your system vs. a more modern approach that includes the use of sound analysis tools and room EQ. I was only trying to point that you can still be a purist and use sound analysis tools to help you find the optimal position for your speakers and listening position much more quickly than doing it by ear alone (listening is still required to verify that you like the sound that measures well).

There's been more than a few times that I've placed my speakers where they sound best with the particular music tracks I've selected for the set-up, only to find that when I play a new piece of music there's a "hot note" in the bass that I didn't hear before, for example. Trying to rectify the problem by ear alone can be maddening, not to mention time consuming. Sound analysis tools show you the potential issues; you can chose or chose not to act on them. One thing is certain though, even if you like your bass a little ripe, or a little lean, no one likes peaky response and using sound analysis tools lets you see if you are sitting in a room null, or if your speaker position is causing a bass peak, or vice versa.

I've said my peace, and now I'll leave it up to the individual as to which approach they wish to take.
post #1149 of 2890
Hey all:

Two items today.

Item 1
I am considering adding a TT to my system. Since I have Viennas and because this is a Vienna thread, I would appreciate any feedback from members with Viennas that may have had experience with any of the manufacturers I am evaluating.

1. Pro-Ject
2. Rega
3. Music Hall
4. Technics (Yea, I know that this is supposed to be a DJ turntable but my Sony PS3 was only supposed to be a game console and not an incredible Blu-ray player, etc.)

These are the models that I have demo'd.
1. Pro-Ject: Debut III, Xpression III and PerspeX
2. Rega: P2 and P3-24.

I know some of you may have had experience with other TTs or think that there are more appropriate TTs but these are the brands that I am considering and it would be most useful to obtain feedback on these.


Item 2
Dave Carr, thanks much for the referral to Victor at the Magnolia store in Santa Monica on Wilshire. I am considering a TT purchase. My first thought was to call a dealer I have used before sinnce they carry the Pro-ject line and I have purchased from them before. But I was in the area so I thought I would give Victor a call and make an appointment to audition some Pro-Jects.

I made the appointment and auditioned 3 Pro-Ject models. Although I had an appointment, Victor was often with other clients; however, he apologized profusely. And he also did the following: He demo'd the Debut III for me. And when he found out I had Viennas, he took the time to set up some Haydens with an Xpression III for me to demo. And then, to top it off, he allowed me to use the primary room alone with the top end equipment. I demo's a PerspeX powered by a McIntosh system and connected to Vienna's "The Music". He left me alone and I spent the time listening to the albums I had brought for the demo.

Again, he apologized profusely which I took as sincere. And when he was free he provided much useful information above and beyond what I came for. I ended up buying a Denon DMP-290 CD player from him. What impressed me was that I told him that, although I already had a Yamaha CD player, I also had a Denon receiver; therefor, I was curious whether there would be an improvement in sound if I bought the Denon CD player. Without skipping a beat, he replied , "Probably not." I bought the CD player anyway because the price was incredible, because I thought that it wouldn't hurt to have a back-up CD player (the Yamaha is more than 10 years old), because I was interested in a player with a remote control and because I was still curious about a difference is SQ.

In summary, Victor seemed knowledgeable, courteous and seemed to have a true passion for audo. Thanks for the referral.

Thanks.
Ese' out
post #1150 of 2890
I have a Pro-Ject RM5 SE. Cool turntable, I highly recommend it. If I were to do it all over again, I'd probably get the same model. The only un-cool thing about it is that it doesn't come with a dust cover... the optional dust cover is something like $360 which in my mind is just ridiculous.

So you auditioned The Music. How did you like it?
post #1151 of 2890
Just got done painting my SACD multichannel room. Used to be all white, I left the ceiling white but painted 3 walls in dark beige, 1 wall in chocolate brown. Vienna cherry finish looks really cool in this color wall. I use a 20x20 marble tile underneath my fronts, and use the Sanus 29 inch stands for the center. I want to raise the center by about 3 feet, it's currently slightly too low.

post #1152 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-3G View Post

Just got done painting my SACD multichannel room. Used to be all white, I left the ceiling white but painted 3 walls in dark beige, 1 wall in chocolate brown. Vienna cherry finish looks really cool in this color wall. I use a 20x20 marble tile underneath my fronts, and use the Sanus 29 inch stands for the center. I want to raise the center by about 3 feet, it's currently slightly too low.


Very handsome. Now it's time to get an acoustic panel up on that left wall to kill the early reflections from the left speaker.
post #1153 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ese View Post

Hey all:

Two items today.

Item 1
I am considering adding a TT to my system. Since I have Viennas and because this is a Vienna thread, I would appreciate any feedback from members with Viennas that may have had experience with any of the manufacturers I am evaluating.

1. Pro-Ject
2. Rega
3. Music Hall
4. Technics (Yea, I know that this is supposed to be a DJ turntable but my Sony PS3 was only supposed to be a game console and not an incredible Blu-ray player, etc.)

These are the models that I have demo'd.
1. Pro-Ject: Debut III, Xpression III and PerspeX
2. Rega: P2 and P3-24.

I know some of you may have had experience with other TTs or think that there are more appropriate TTs but these are the brands that I am considering and it would be most useful to obtain feedback on these.


Item 2
Dave Carr, thanks much for the referral to Victor at the Magnolia store in Santa Monica on Wilshire. I am considering a TT purchase. My first thought was to call a dealer I have used before sinnce they carry the Pro-ject line and I have purchased from them before. But I was in the area so I thought I would give Victor a call and make an appointment to audition some Pro-Jects.

I made the appointment and auditioned 3 Pro-Ject models. Although I had an appointment, Victor was often with other clients; however, he apologized profusely. And he also did the following: He demo'd the Debut III for me. And when he found out I had Viennas, he took the time to set up some Haydens with an Xpression III for me to demo. And then, to top it off, he allowed me to use the primary room alone with the top end equipment. I demo's a PerspeX powered by a McIntosh system and connected to Vienna's "The Music". He left me alone and I spent the time listening to the albums I had brought for the demo.

Again, he apologized profusely which I took as sincere. And when he was free he provided much useful information above and beyond what I came for. I ended up buying a Denon DMP-290 CD player from him. What impressed me was that I told him that, although I already had a Yamaha CD player, I also had a Denon receiver; therefor, I was curious whether there would be an improvement in sound if I bought the Denon CD player. Without skipping a beat, he replied , "Probably not." I bought the CD player anyway because the price was incredible, because I thought that it wouldn't hurt to have a back-up CD player (the Yamaha is more than 10 years old), because I was interested in a player with a remote control and because I was still curious about a difference is SQ.

In summary, Victor seemed knowledgeable, courteous and seemed to have a true passion for audo. Thanks for the referral.

Thanks.
Ese' out

You're welcome! A busy salesman is the sign of a good salesman.
post #1154 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-3G View Post

I have a Pro-Ject RM5 SE. Cool turntable, I highly recommend it. If I were to do it all over again, I'd probably get the same model. The only un-cool thing about it is that it doesn't come with a dust cover... the optional dust cover is something like $360 which in my mind is just ridiculous.

So you auditioned The Music. How did you like it?

T-3G:

The Music was impressive. Now, are they worth the five digit price tag. I don't know. I will say that, the PerspeX was the only TT I demo'd where pops, cracks and hiss were audible. It was also the best TT that I auditioned.

Thanks for the feedback on the RM-5. Also, I have looked at the Pro-Ject RM-5. Unfortunately, they were unable to demo it for me because they had lent (sic) the belt to a customer. I wholheartedly agree with you on that dustcover.

Tell me about your center channel speaker stand. It looks like a "tray" type set-up. Your comments are on the tray and the tray includes two arms or pillars that the center channel is atop of. Is that correct?

Ese'
post #1155 of 2890
Ese,

Regarding The Music, yeah, I thought so. I auditioned The Kiss and I wasn't gonna spend 3X what I spent on my BCG.

Did all the turntables you auditioned have the same cartridge? You really can't compare them unless they all have the same cartridge.

The speaker stands that I use for the center speaker is actually for bookshelf speakers, and they're 30 inches in height. See below for more details. It was like $120 at Magnolia. Thinking of upgrading it to F&L that SUMIKO carries because it can be filled with sand.

http://www.sanus.com/us/en/products/.../sp-steel/SF30

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/sumikocar..._fl_stands.htm
post #1156 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-3G View Post

Ese,

Regarding The Music, yeah, I thought so. I auditioned The Kiss and I wasn't gonna spend 3X what I spent on my BCG.

Did all the turntables you auditioned have the same cartridge? You really can't compare them unless they all have the same cartridge.

The speaker stands that I use for the center speaker is actually for bookshelf speakers, and they're 30 inches in height. See below for more details. It was like $120 at Magnolia. Thinking of upgrading it to F&L that SUMIKO carries because it can be filled with sand.

http://www.sanus.com/us/en/products/.../sp-steel/SF30

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/sumikocar..._fl_stands.htm

T-3G:

No different cartridges. Yea, I know that they should be the same. What was consistent was that they were demo'd with either the standard cartridge that may have come with the TT (that works because my short term plan would be just to get up and running and then upgrade when I am more familiar with TT audio), or if the demo wasn't done with the standard cartridge, the demo was done with the cartridge that was considered the most applicable cartridge for the TT given my tastes and current system.

Ese'
post #1157 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Carr View Post

You're welcome! A busy salesman is the sign of a good salesman.



Yeah, I believe that he is a good salesman. But when apologizing he also said that he wasn't usually that busy and that it just happened to be one of those days when everything was happening at once.

Good guy. It was a breath of fresh air to deal with a salesman at a chain store that seemed to have a true passion and enthusiasm for audio.
post #1158 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ese View Post

T-3G:

No different cartridges. Yea, I know that they should be the same. What was consistent was that they were demo'd with either the standard cartridge that may have come with the TT (that works because my short term plan would be just to get up and running and then upgrade when I am more familiar with TT audio), or if the demo wasn't done with the standard cartridge, the demo was done with the cartridge that was considered the most applicable cartridge for the TT given my tastes and current system.

Ese'

FYI, F&L is discontinued.
post #1159 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Carr View Post

FYI, F&L is discontinued.

Ouch. They need to update the site.
post #1160 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-3G View Post

Ouch. They need to update the site.

Just ran out of stock recently....
post #1161 of 2890
I inherited 3 VA Waltz speakers recently and noticed the 4 ohm rating. Can I run these with a Pioneer 1019 amp that has settings for 6 an 8 ohms only. Is there a better amp to use for these speakers, mostly for music, but some home theater potential as well? Thank you for your time.
post #1162 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randallje View Post

I inherited 3 VA Waltz speakers recently and noticed the 4 ohm rating. Can I run these with a Pioneer 1019 amp that has settings for 6 an 8 ohms only. Is there a better amp to use for these speakers, mostly for music, but some home theater potential as well? Thank you for your time.

That's a fairly light-duty AVR. You *can* power the waltzs with it, but be very careful with the volume (not too loud). If you want to get the most out of the speakers, I recommend getting the "Primare" SPA22 AVR. If you are on more of a budget, consider a Denon 3308 or 3310 AVR.
post #1163 of 2890
Thank you much for the reply. Those are good suggestions.
will look into those receivers.
post #1164 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

That's a fairly light-duty AVR. You *can* power the waltzs with it, but be very careful with the volume (not too loud). If you want to get the most out of the speakers, I recommend getting the "Primare" SPA22 AVR. If you are on more of a budget, consider a Denon 3308 or 3310 AVR.

Not a fan of AVR3310 with Vienna, but certainly try it. Primare SPA22, if it fits in your budget, would be amazing. If your budget restricted, I'd take a good hard look at Pioneer Elite SC25 or SC27. To my ears, they are the best sounding under-$2k AVRs on the market.
post #1165 of 2890
I sincerely appreciate the information.
Dave would you find the Pioneer AVR's to be a problem with the 4 ohm VA speakers. I am under the impression that Pioneer receivers are primarily 8 or 6 ohm rated. Thank you all........once again.
post #1166 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Carr View Post

Not a fan of AVR3310 with Vienna, but certainly try it. Primare SPA22, if it fits in your budget, would be amazing. If your budget restricted, I'd take a good hard look at Pioneer Elite SC25 or SC27. To my ears, they are the best sounding under-$2k AVRs on the market.

werent you saying that vienna and ice amps are a bad combo not to long ago....now its the best sounding under 2k
post #1167 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randallje View Post

I sincerely appreciate the information.
Dave would you find the Pioneer AVR's to be a problem with the 4 ohm VA speakers. I am under the impression that Pioneer receivers are primarily 8 or 6 ohm rated. Thank you all........once again.

the previous generation SC-05 and SC-07 did not bench test very well with 4ohm loads.
post #1168 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigred7078 View Post

werent you saying that vienna and ice amps are a bad combo not to long ago....now its the best sounding under 2k

Not trying to make this a pissing match. Class D amps have a bad rap. Some sound better than others. I've had bad experiences with some (I won't name them). There more than a few examples of Class D amps that sound great, including the Rowland amps, as well as Primare's new products. Class D is here to stay, so we must continue push its development forward.

BTW, no Japanese receiver under $2k that I've worked with has tested well under a 4 ohm load. This doesn't mean that it won't drive the load. You won't get any power increase though. Denon included.

Between the current Denon and Pioneer models, I choose Pioneer. Denon has disappointed me this year. Again, THIS IS MY OPINION. Go listen, figure it out for yourself.
post #1169 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Carr View Post

Not trying to make this a pissing match. Class D amps have a bad rap. Some sound better than others. I've had bad experiences with some (I won't name them). There more than a few examples of Class D amps that sound great, including the Rowland amps, as well as Primare's new products. Class D is here to stay, so we must continue push its development forward.

BTW, no Japanese receiver under $2k that I've worked with has tested well under a 4 ohm load. This doesn't mean that it won't drive the load. You won't get any power increase though. Denon included.

Between the current Denon and Pioneer models, I choose Pioneer. Denon has disappointed me this year. Again, THIS IS MY OPINION. Go listen, figure it out for yourself.

gotcha, i just thought i remembered you said you did not like class D and wanted you to clear that up.
post #1170 of 2890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Carr View Post

Not trying to make this a pissing match. Class D amps have a bad rap. Some sound better than others. I've had bad experiences with some (I won't name them). There more than a few examples of Class D amps that sound great, including the Rowland amps, as well as Primare's new products. Class D is here to stay, so we must continue push its development forward.

Dave -

Which new Primare amps will use Class D? I haven't heard about this yet. What's the output on them? I've been looking for a good 5-7 channel amp with 200+ watts out output per channel.
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