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The *OFFICIAL* Vienna Acoustics Owners Thread - Page 90

post #2671 of 3008
I have been considering the purchase of The KISS for some time. My system currently consists of a SimAudio 700i Integrated Amp driving a pair of Dynaudio C1 Signatures. I went with the C1's originally due to size of my listening room which is 12 feet by 13 feet and my budget. It is quite a lively room with wood paneled walls, hard wood floor with carpet on top. The C1's sound great but don't have much bottom end. They are quite forward sounding.

I recently auditioned The KISS at my local VA dealer (They also sell Dynaudio). I was able to audition both side by side. I found the sound stage to be much wider and more detailed with the KISS. The KISS seemed more laid back in their listening room which is well treated and not lively at all. They drove both using a SimAudio 600i which is similar to my 700i with less power.

They want to move the KISS which are demos and have given me a great price with trade in of the C1's. I guess in the current economy it is easier to move an 8500 speaker over a 15K one. The price differential is very tempting. Very very tempting.

Anyone here own the KISS and if so could you give me your impression of them now that you have lived with them for some time. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
post #2672 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebug View Post

Maybe somebody is planning to ship their VA Mozarts and don't have the original boxes. Here's what I did with easy to find materials.
6 Packs 3/4 in. x 14- 1/2 in. x 48 in. E/O Polystyrene Panel (6 per Pack) - Home Depot
2 Golf-bag boxes (15" x 15" x 48") - Fedex
Foam sheets - Home Depot
Stretch film
Spare cardboards
Fillers (Peanuts, crumpled papers, foams) - Never use bubble wraps for very heavy items.
Packaging tape
Polypanels and foam sheets from Home Depot
399
Base and grille removed
399
Tweeter is protected with a foam housing (like walls and roof of the house). Whole speaker is then wrapped with the pink foam sheet to protect the veneer.
399
Place a rectangular cardboard to cover both woofers.
399
Cut a rectangular slot on one side polypanel for the Grille. (Like hiding a gun with a book). Make sure the grille's six mounts are pointed outward not toward the speaker. Cover it with foam sheet.
399
Speaker is wrapped with stretch film. This will protect the foam sheet from moving. The polypanels are positioned and ready to be inserted to the box. Note the Grille is sandwiched on the side. (The grille mounts must be pointd outwards). Also note the poly panel at the lower end.
399
Speaker is inserted. Do this with the speaker and box horizontally on the floor. You may need someone to help you.
399
Wrap the base and spikes and place them on the other end. Place a polypanel and cardboard between this and speaker to prevent accidental scratching of veneer during transport.
399
Check for any looseness. Add fillers if needed. Tape the box and you are ready to ship.
This actually takes time to do. Two to 4 hours depending on you. But knowing that the speaker will arrive unharmed, it's worth it.
The speakers actually arrived in the destination in perfect condition!
I hope this information can help someone.


Yes, indeed they arrived at my home in perfect condition! :-)
post #2673 of 3008
My new Mozarts

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post #2674 of 3008
My old Mozarts (not SE)

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Regards
RoDa
post #2675 of 3008
Hi

I found this thread searching the web for Vienna information.
This brand of speakers have been on my mind for several years, but only recently I actually bought a pair.... or two smile.gif

For several years I didn't find speakers that fit my preferences and my living room, quite frustrating!
Dynaudio Focus 140, Usher BE718, B&W CM9, Sonus Faber Domus Grand Piano.... and a Velodyne SPL800R.
They all sounded thin and too forward in the upper midrange. The subwoofer added weight, but only way down deep.
As a last resort I bought a pair of REL T5 subwoofers.
They did a really good job here! But they didn't fix the uneven sound from the Sonus Fabers.

So. I went for it! Sold the SFs and bought a used pair of Mozart Grands. Piano Black.
I heard right away that this was what I have been looking for all these years!

But as I couldn't quite stop to think about the SE version, and the fact that I was getting bored with the piano black laquer... from owning too many speakers in that finish....
So, today there's a pair of three days old Mozart Grand SEs in cherry veneer in my living room. (My wife's choice, but after seeing them I totally agree)
I'm totally thrilled!! ...and the REL subwoofers are hidden away since I no longer feel the need for them.
(I will try them later after the first 100 hours with my Mozarts has passed, though, but for now the Mozart does bass well enough on their own)

More pictures of my new darlings

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Regards
RoDa
post #2676 of 3008
Congrats on the new Mozart Grand SE's! They look outstanding, especially in VA's cherry finish. Bet the sound awesome too. I am quite partial to the finish and sound of my Bach Grands in cherry too. I love the attention to detail VA puts into the craftsmanship, even matching the grain of the veneers of each pair of speakers.
You mention you are not running your REL subs with the SE's, right? Did you run the REL's with the old Mozart Grands? If so, is the bass that big an improvement in the new Mozart SE over the old Mozart Grand?
I run a single REL T-1 with my Bachs and feel my current bass response is ideal.

008.JPG 1173k .JPG file 004.JPG 1146k .JPG file
post #2677 of 3008
Thank you, Paraneer smile.gif

When i brought the Mozart Grands (not SE) to the system I already had the RELs adjusted to the Sonus speakers that I sold.
Of course they added weight and lower frequencies to the sound, but I wanted to hear the Mozarts on their own.
I also felt that the Mozart was a bit "slower" in the bass than the RELs so the synergy wasn't quite there.

When I got the new Mozart SEs, I was able to do a direct comparison between the two. Very helpful!!
The SEs have a fuller, quicker and lower bass performance. Also the midrange is more pronounced and with more microdetails.
As a hole the SEs seem more focused and finetuned, without losing any of the "magic" present in the non-SEs.
Very well done, Vienna!!

I have not sold the RELs, and neither will I until I have worked extensively with them in my setup.
But I'll wait until the first 100 hours of playing is done. At the moment I don't miss anything in the bass, but I know that the RELs very well will surprise me like they've done before.

A few pictures of the old vs the SE models of mine.
The older ones are sold now.

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Regards
RoDa
post #2678 of 3008
absolutely gorgeous RoDa! congrats on the new SE's and giving us a comparison. I'm running a T2 Rel with my Mozart Grands and the combination is terrific, although you are absolutely correct in that you can get away with not using the rel given the bass response of the mozarts
post #2679 of 3008
Thank you rezalon!
Last night I couldn't resist trying the RELs for a little while...
But even though my T5s shurely added lower frequencies, they seemed to thin out some of the full bodied bass-response from the Mozarts...?
I suspect that I need to lower the crossover frequency for the RELs?

Any ideas?
What is your settings, rezalon, on your REL?

IMG_7669.jpg

Regards
Rolf
Edited by RoDa - 9/13/12 at 11:52pm
post #2680 of 3008
The Mozarts in my living room

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post #2681 of 3008
Lovely setup! Where'd you get the stand your components are placed on? I could use something low to the ground.
post #2682 of 3008
Thanks alexander717!

The component stand is from IKEA.
Two of these:
http://www.ikea.com/no/no/catalog/products/40105340/

(Sidewalls from nr 2 used as dividers and the top shelf from nr 2 with damping between it and the original top shelf)

Total cost 150$ cool.gif


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post #2683 of 3008
can someone give me a take on Arcam and Primare Amps for Vienna setup. I know Primare was highly recommended for Vienna but i wonder how Arcam Amps sounds comparing to Primare. Can someone describe Arcam sound . Don't have any local dealers.
Thank you
post #2684 of 3008
I have a pair of Haydn Grands and am currently driving them with a Perreaux Prisma 200P solid state amp. (200 wpc 8 ohms/300 wpc 4 ohms) and have an M&K sub. I'm thinking about going with a no global feedback solid state amp or possibly tubes. Is anybody using tubes with these, and if so, what make/model? I know these need power to sing and a decent damping factor, so I'm approaching this possibility very carefully.
post #2685 of 3008
Hey has anyone here compared some of the older VA speakers to the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1? there is someone locally selling a pair of Original Bach Floorstanders and wanted to know if they are likely to be better than the Sierra-1s (non NRT)


thanks!
post #2686 of 3008
Could possibly be the amp that they were driven by.
Edited by Elahn - 10/12/12 at 3:12pm
post #2687 of 3008
Thanks I don't think the sierras are sterile at all, but do think their presentation can be a little forward sometimes. I've had the sierras for about two years and want to try something different didn't want it to be a only a lateral move and VA speakers have always interested me.
post #2688 of 3008
This is what she looks like without her cabinet protecting her.......smile.gif

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Regards
RoDa
post #2689 of 3008
Maybe Patrick Butler or someone else can answer this. I did a search for Vienna's main website and it is no longer up. Does anyone have an idea what is going on with the company? Hopefully this is not a sign that there are serious problems developing with the company..
post #2690 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by erniec View Post

Maybe Patrick Butler or someone else can answer this. I did a search for Vienna's main website and it is no longer up. Does anyone have an idea what is going on with the company? Hopefully this is not a sign that there are serious problems developing with the company..

Uk site is up: http://www.vienna-acoustics.co.uk
post #2691 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevelk View Post

Uk site is up: http://www.vienna-acoustics.co.uk

Yup, but it has the same "problem" as the main website.
http://www.vienna-acoustics.co.uk/vienna-acoustics-products
Where are the SE-models?

It needs to be updated, and I suspect that is what they are doing right now?

Regards
RoDa
post #2692 of 3008
The UK site is not their main international site I hope that they are just in the process of constructiong a new webiste
post #2693 of 3008
Hi everyone. I have a question, please..

My background is that I'm new to the audiophile world. A friend who has been buying/selling/enjoying great audio for years brought over a few speakers, including a Vienna Waltz and a Proac bookshelf, to compare with each other and my existing $250 Infinity pair from Frys..

Wow. The Waltz sounded great - just one channel from my New mid-range Denon receiver driving it; even better than the Proac. Ella Fitzgerald with just a piano. The Infinitys sounded horrible after comparison with the Vienna..

So, now the question: A pair of these is for sale on Audiogon. I can't really afford it, but, what do you folks think of me buying the pair, and using the three of them as my R, L, and center channel speakers? I'd use just the two with the Denon for a (cheap) first good sounding stereo system.

Should I think about the Haydens that are also there? Seems like the Waltz is more speaker.

Or save up for the Mozarts?

Thanks for any comments.


P.S. Sorry, I started a new thread with the initial post of this question. I'll edit it and send people here


---
Steve
post #2694 of 3008
Happy to hear you liked the Waltz. Yes, VA's are impressive speakers.

If I read your post correctly sounds like your friend is leaving the single Waltz with you so all you have to buy is a pair in order to have three - LCR. Right? If so, this will work. Just keep in mind that the Waltz's are really designed for wall mounting. The Hadyns (and I presume you talking about the Haydn Grands) are either bookshelf or standmount since they are front ported. I also believe a single Waltz acting as a center would match well with Haydns as L/R Mains. Will leave others who may have this pairing to comment.

Of course I would say Mozarts are ultimately the way to go but these are a long way from the cost of the Waltzs and Haydns. It would be up to you tod ecide if you want to save and wait or enjoy the Vienna sound right now. Seems like your already happy with how the Waltz performed with the Denon receiver so this should be a plus for going with what you can afford right now. Whatever your decision, its nice to hear you were impressed with VA and considering joining our ranks. Welcome.
post #2695 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paraneer View Post

Happy to hear you liked the Waltz. Yes, VA's are impressive speakers.
If I read your post correctly sounds like your friend is leaving the single Waltz with you so all you have to buy is a pair in order to have three - LCR. Right? If so, this will work. Just keep in mind that the Waltz's are really designed for wall mounting. The Hadyns (and I presume you talking about the Haydn Grands) are either bookshelf or standmount since they are front ported. I also believe a single Waltz acting as a center would match well with Haydns as L/R Mains. Will leave others who may have this pairing to comment.
Of course I would say Mozarts are ultimately the way to go but these are a long way from the cost of the Waltzs and Haydns. It would be up to you tod ecide if you want to save and wait or enjoy the Vienna sound right now. Seems like your already happy with how the Waltz performed with the Denon receiver so this should be a plus for going with what you can afford right now. Whatever your decision, its nice to hear you were impressed with VA and considering joining our ranks. Welcome.

Thanks for the comments and kind words. Yes, I have the one Waltz now, and these would make three. My friend said the same thing - should be wall mounted. I thought I saw them on stands in a few pics, but perhaps not. He also said imaging would not be as good if wall mounted (they'd also be up higher if on the wall), and this is a big part of good sound for me at this point. So, I guess I should wait to hear Mozarts, and probably save my pennies.

Thanks again.

--
Steve
post #2696 of 3008
I usually think of wall mounted speakers as HT speakers. Sounds to me like music is your first prioity. If it is, then do not wall mount - consider the Haydns. If you find the old style, those were rear ported and they must go on stands. If you find the newer ones, Haydn Grands, these are front ported and can be used either on stands or bookshelves. The trick is to get the tweeters near ear level and proper spacing between the speakers and the listening position along with speaker positioning from rear and side walls too. This is much easier accomplished with stands or floorstanding speakers.

As I said earlier, I think a single Waltz will work as a center with the Haydns. Maybe someone else can comment if the Waltz would serve well as a center with the Haydns.

Finally, if your are going to forget either Waltz or Haydns as mains and save toward Mozarts, I would suggest you consider the floorstanding Bach Grands too. I have them and am extremely satisfied - very musical speaker and a bit more affordable. Good luck on your decision.
post #2697 of 3008
This is going to sound crazy, but my VA speakers sound harsh, hard, and unpleasant -- not at all why I purchased them... Help!

Long Version

I have an older pair of VA Bach speakers (non grand) that I picked up used and originally paired with an Harmon Kardon 3490 receiver. Having been through several amps since then, I can confidently describe the sound of the hk 3490 as extremely laid back, full sounding, and sweet in the treble. This combination was totally non fatiguing no matter what recordings i threw at it; however, though, never a harsh note uttered, most of the time, it didn't sound anything like real music either: there was no real clarity to speak of unless listening to a lively or bright recording, not to mention the bass was always flabby and uncontrolled. Since I thought I could get better sound for my speakers, I decided to try an integrated amp -- this is when the unpleasantness started.

First, I bought the acclaimed rega brio r and -- holy smokes -- a major upgrade in both sound quality and ear pain! Dynamic and lively, just like the reviews stated; the upper midrange right on up through the treble, not at like the reviews stated... Acoustic instruments sounded hard, harsh, artificial, electronic sounding. Now, since most everyone thinks the rega sounds like a real smoothie in the mids and highs and to my ears quite the opposite result occurred, I asked my dealer. I was told the brio r needed "breaking in". I put up with it for 250+ ear bleeding hours. Suffice to say, the little brio-r went back to the shop and I no longer believe in "break in". Later, I read on audiogon that others also found the brio-r to sound grainy and harsh in the upper midrange -- great it's not just me -- yet I also seemed to find the treble range of say 5-10k to be notably harsh as well (more on that later).

Next, I tried the Nad c326 bee, another amp that most people think a little dark in the treble. Described as just on the warm side of neutral by most, it was certainly much less fatiguing than the brio-r, but that edge or hardness in the treble was still present. I listen to lots of classical and instrumental music -- my favorite instrument is the violin -- so this amp, too, went back.

Finally, I bought a Marantz PM 8004. I find there's some warmth in the bass with this amp, while the midrange on up through the treble are clear and neutral sounding. I rather like this amp, but it sounds harsh, hard, and unnatural in the treble on strings and horns 90% of the time like all the other amps I tried. I decided to settle and just keep it.

Next I tried cable swaps, room positioning, all sorts of tweaks with no real success. Thinking I had a problem with digital sources, I tried a tube dac to smooth things over that helped helped a smidgen but came with its own set of drawbacks. Then I played some records I'd heard numerous times on the old hk 3490 without incident, they also now had this harsh, hard quality on strings and horns. It's not a digital / analog thing then. Either I don't like the sound of mid-fi SS amps or I don't like these speakers.

Here's what I do know: while specific measurements for the older Bach classic aren't online, several VA models are, and looking at measurements across the VA line, it seems like the tweeter output begins to rise around 5k until around 12k on most models. I think this is called "treble sparkle" -- it's also the likely cause of my misery. I noticed that If i use an EQ in foobar to lower the 7k-10k range a few db, I can mostly reduce the hard, artificial edge I'm hearing on horns and strings, as I reduce the output things begin to sound more pleasant, dare I say, listenable. However, there's still the problem of my records sounding harsh and the tone controls on my marantz can't fix it since the treble knob tweaks around the 15k range. Of course, frequency response doesn't tell the whole story, it could also be the tweeter or the crossover.

Now, I bet something like the primaluna prologue one with el 34 tubes would make me happy, but since the old VA Bach speakers are getting up in years, I think I'd rather put my next outlay of cash towards a new pair of speakers. As things stand, I'm thinking about buying Haydn Grands or Bach grands, but I'm a little worried I'll have the same problem with them, so I've also been considering alternatives like the Spendor s3/5r2 and the Harbeth p3esr as well. The question is whether the harshness I'm hearing is simply due to the older haydn/bach tweeter being unrefined to these ears, which an upgrade to the newer grand or grand se models might fix; or if I simply don't like the VA house sound? Since I don't have any VA dealers nearby, I could really use some input from current owners of the haydn grand or bach grand models and thanks for reading this far if you have. smile.gif

Short Version

I have older VA Bach, non grand speakers. I find they sound harsh, unnatural, and hard in the treble range say 7-10k frequencies with all of the SS integrated amps I've tried: rega brio-r, nad 326bee, marantz pm 8004. I know the VA house sound, according to measurements, gives a little boost to the treble starting around 5k and ending around 12k in most models. It's the 7-10k range that's frustrating me, since an EQ db decrease of 3-5db in that range mostly fixes it.

I'm in the market for new speakers now and I'm considering the haydn grand, haydn grand se, bach grand, or even something else like the spendor s3/5r2 or harbeth p3esr. Questions -- Is the tweeter on the older Haydn / Bach models simply unrefined? Would upgrading to the newer haydn grand or grand se fix it? If not, is it the VA house sound I dislike? Alternatively, maybe I simply hate the sound of solid state amps? I'd love it if owners of the newer haydn / bach grand models could chime in for me on this, before I spend anymore money. Thanks!
post #2698 of 3008
I only have owned the Mozart Grands, and now the Mozart SEs.
I suspect your issue is related to a speaker-room interaction problem or a sound-of-vienna your-ears interaction problem?
I'm not familiar with the older models, but if they sound anything like my Mozarts, then harshness just isn't there.
I tried a lot of speakers before the Viennas, and no one of them sounded as "sweet" as the Mozarts. (the B&W CM9s are also good)
post #2699 of 3008
Of course I am going to agree with RoDa. I own the Bach Grands and love them - smoothest, sweetest sounding speaker I have ever owned. Harsh is not a word I would ever use.

I understand you bought the older Bachs used so you probably did not audition them. But you bought several amps from dealers, right? At least the Brio R came from a dealership as you mentioned bringing the problem to your dealers attention. Did you ever take your speakers to the dealer to see how they would sound with the amps your were considering/buying? If they sounded radically different and hopefully improved, then you know it is your listening room. Time to reconsider the room you use or if not practical, then acoustic treatments. If the Bachs still sound bad, then the Vienna sound is not for you. However I wouldn't know what to recommend as VA's are usually described as smooth and laid back. You are describing them as harsh and hard in the treble. Most other speakers I could think of in the same class as Viennas are probably even brighter.

I don't think a different amp will solve the problem - you have gone through several good ones, especially the Marantz PM 8004. I heard this amp once driving Sonus Faber Liuto Woods and it was amazing what this amp could do for the money. You have a good one here. So bottom line, take your speakers to the dealer or into another enviroment to see if you can tame them down for your ears. If you can, you have your answer - your room! If you can't, time to consider a different brand of speaker other than VA. Maybe the Sonus Fabers that have a rep as being smooth and somewhat dark. Good luck and hope this helps.
post #2700 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoDa View Post

I only have owned the Mozart Grands, and now the Mozart SEs.
I suspect your issue is related to a speaker-room interaction problem or a sound-of-vienna your-ears interaction problem?
I'm not familiar with the older models, but if they sound anything like my Mozarts, then harshness just isn't there.
I tried a lot of speakers before the Viennas, and no one of them sounded as "sweet" as the Mozarts. (the B&W CM9s are also good)

Thanks for the response! Like you say, Vienna Acoustic speakers are known for sounding sweet, hearing quite the opposite all this time has caused me quite a bit of confusion. I've done a lot of digging on google with terms like "vienna acoustics + harshness" and as you can imagine most everyone describes these speakers in exactly the opposite terms -- it's why I bought them in the first place! That said, I did find two older posts one in the audioasylum archive and one in the naim forums describing harsh and sibilant highs from the original vienna acoustics haydns, which I believe share the same tweeter with my VA Bachs. Perhaps, I need to try the newer models.

As for room acoustics, my room is small 12ft x 10 x 10 with a big couch and lots of books and other furnishings crammed into it. I've found the speakers sound less harsh when facing straight ahead as opposed to towed in towards the listening position. I believe my room may be playing a part, but I didn't have any issues with the old hk 3490; nonethless, I've tried listening in the nearfield to take the room out of the equation, as well as a diagional placement to combat reflections, neither of which helped.
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