The *OFFICIAL* Vienna Acoustics Owners Thread - Page 94

Since you are already predicting you will be hit with the upgrade bug to get additional speakers beyond your 2 channel Haydn system, I recommend getting the XPA-5. This will give you plenty of power for anything from the Waltz, to the mighty Concert Grand. And this will give you flexibility to add speakers at your discretion without worrying how to power them.

Best of all, when the XPA-5 goes back on sale they will be close to the $700 mark.

This seems like a valid option, or maybe the XPA-3 depending on how funds are. I notice this has a 0.1% THD, which seems relatively high. How much of a difference are we going to hear with a higher quality amp?

I've been a fan of the appearance of the entire grand line for a while now, but for me the look of the new Imperial Grand makes me think VA took a small step backward. It was a subtle change, but not a great decision IMO. Thoughts?

From what we know so far, I wouldn't say VA took a step backwards. The Beethoven Imperial uses driver technology not found on any of the Concert series speakers - the flat cone coincident drivers found only in the Klimt line. Plus a super tweeter. This appears to be quite a significant departure from the Concert models. Whether all this adds up to a signifcantly better speaker, I would have to hear them first. Which I haven't.

I am a fan of soft dome tweeters though and hope the Concert line stays intact. Hope VA doesn't replace all their models with this type of new driver and do away with the Concert line. At least not yet. I would love a pair of Mozart Grand SE's or Baby Beethovens some day.
Edited by Paraneer - 1/31/13 at 1:32pm

Oh I don't doubt they've created a great addition technologically. I was speaking strictly from an aesthetic POV. The Imperial, IMO, is not as Imperial looks-wise when compared to Vienna's other Grand tower speakers.

I have a feeling the Imperial Grand line is going to be VA's way of making a Special Edition for the BCGs and Maestro Grand without calling them that. Though, given their price they do seem to be another line for that $10k price niche. If anything, I am looking forward to a new center channel since nothing has replaced the Oratorio.

By the way, I heard through the grapevine that our old friend Patrick Butler left VA to go to B&W.

Hey kids,

I own a pair of VA Bach Grands and have been using them for about 1.5 years now. The problem is that I've struggled with an annoying bass bump (I hope that's the correct word) for the entire time I've owned them. I've done everything to try to resolve this issue. Specifically, I've tried stuffing the ports with foam or cloth, I've tried adding different types of filling material to the insides of the cabinets, and I've tried placing materials under the speakers like marble slabs. Further to this, I've tried every possible position that my room allows for. After all this effort, I realized that any modifications to the cabinets themselves (stuffing, etc.) makes the speakers sound crappier. At this point, I've found the best possible placement, but I think my room's shape is causing many of the problems. There appears to be weird "node" positions in the room where the bass is super boomy and other areas of the room where there is very little bass, sigh... (insert insane-crazed laughter here!). So, I guess my question is, does anyone have any other recommendations? I read somewhere on this thread that I could try tilting the speakers back using the spike screws to see if the sound gets a bit more focused; maybe I'll try that.

Despite the issues in this long rambling post, I actually really like the sound of these speakers; they can make acoustic jazz and classical music sound so damn realistic!!
Edited by jolito - 2/5/13 at 5:14am

Me too! Its why I love them.

As for getting bass under control...I have read in a few others places that the Bach Grands seem to have a bass bump. I know in my own experience using the older non grand Bachs in a small room, bass boom was problem for me. You're right, plugging the ports make the speakers sound terrible -- the cure is worse than the disease.

Positioning, of course, is crucial. You might try them really far out into the room, until the bass falls off some, then slowly inch them back closer to the wall a little at a time. Certain positions will likely produce better or worse bass depending on room nodes and port reinforcement from the back wall. Keep them away from corners as that will make most any speaker boom. Also, if a wall is right behind your listening position it will sound boomy no matter what. By moving your head only a foot or so forward, bass will sound much more controlled.

Do experiment with rake angle. Its a real chore but a subtle improvement. Ideally, tilt them back until the midpoint between the woofer/ tweeter is aligned with your ears. At the very least, it will heighten the sound-stage a little bit and make the speakers sound more open.

Like you say, though, positioning may not work. My first amp was a hk 3490 receiver and I thought I'd never cure the bass boom in this room. The key was buy a different amp! I really enjoyed how smooth and full the hk sounded but the bass was certainly uncontrolled and boomy at all times. It wasn't so much the speakers, which I had thought, as much as the sonic quality of the amp itself and how the amp drove them. What amp are you using and have you tried any others?

I've tried a ton of amps with these speakers. Since you have the newer grand models which present an amp with a different load than mine, my results may not match yours, but it is my experience that a lot of what one hear in terms of soundstage, tonal qualities, and bass quality / content derive not just the amp/speaker interaction but how the amp is tuned to sound, which means my results may ring true -- to some extent -- regardless of speaker.

Here's a brief rundown:

hk3490 -- boomy, muddy, uncontrolled bass.
peachtree decco -- definately no bass slam due to power or lack of current, bass otherwise sounded fine.
Nad 326bee -- lots of bass slam and very prominent bass. very pleasing if you like bass but it dominated the aural presentation for sure. Proceed with caution.
Rega Brio-R -- tight, fast, and well controlled bass with no boom to speak of. Perhaps a little too tight, though, as I found this amp to sound cold, but everyone else seems to love it!
Pioneer receiver -- bass, what bass? Low bass was there but with hardly any force, while midbass was almost completely nonexistent. A presentation tilted towards the upper frequncies for sure. The pioneer class d stuff may be different.
Arcam A18 -- no real bass slam or dynamics, seemed to lack drive and sounded very flat; however, a very pleasing tonality and the bass sounded fine and in balance with the other frequencies. The more powerful A28 & A38 may be the ticket.
Marantz pm 8004 -- Bass could sound a little slow and plodding as if determined to slow the music down, not the most upbeat or energetic sound but great for classical, jazz and vocal music. Otherwise, bass quality was good and not too prominent, forceful when required, only what the music called for.
Primaluna Prologue One -- the el 34s don't do much for bass slam, but the bass is present and has a wonderful effusive quality. Plucked bass has never sounded more right to these ears.

Anyway, Good Luck!

Hi Alexander717,

Thanks for all of the advice. I have also gone the route of trying to optimize the electronics feeding these VA Bach Grands, and have met with some success.


Here are the electronics I've tried:

1. CREEK EVO integrated amp and CD player - overall, these units had a very dark and constrained sound.

2. an old MARANTZ 2235B integrated amp and an old YAMAHA natural sounds CD player - more open, brighter, but less overall resolution and detail

3. ATOLL IN-100 SE integrated amp and CAMBRIDGE DACmagic 100 (fed by the CREEK EVO CD player) - the ATOLL is a very powerful dual-mono amp with a lively sound; the DACmagic is also lively with great resolution


So, for now I'm sticking with the ATOLL/CAMBRIDGE combo; its the best I've heard so far. I kinda feel like there is not much I can do about my acoustically horrid room However, I did like your comment about listening with a wall behind me; and I think you're absolutely right. I moved my sofa about 10 cm from the wall and its helping me get out of an annoying boomy spot.

Thanks a million!!

Since I have a pair of Bach Grands too, I can say that they are very picky on placement. But once you find the right spot relative to your rooms acoustics, the results can be spectacular - they are very nice speakers indeed. After, a lot of trial and error, I can only share what works for me and maybe some of this can be of use to you too.

My room is rectangular, 14' x 19', 266 sq ft. The listening chairs are 7' from the back wall. The speakers are 7' apart (VA badge to badge) and 9' from my listening chair. This arrangement forms an isosceles triangle. The speakers are 16" from the rear walls and approx 34" from the side walls.

I use a Parasound 2100 analog preamp for all 2 channel listening with my VA's. No DSP, tone control boost, etc. Very old school. I drive them with a Parasound 5125 power amp that puts out 185 wpc into 4 Ohm. The damping factor for this amp is relatively high at >150. It grips and controls the low frequency drivers very well. In fact, I also have a REL T-1 sub using the high level connection (from my L/R main speakers posts on the amp to the REL) and it gets low frequency signals from all sources below the crossover point that seems to sound the best for me - about 52 hz. I find the overall bass very fast, tight and musical. No boominess. By far the best sounding system I have ever had. No complaints except for always wondering how good Mozarts or Beethovens would sound.

That Atoll you have jolito is a very nice powerful amp . I agree that of all the amps you tried, the Atoll would perform the best with VA's. I think you have a winner here and hopefuly it is a room placement issue. Good luck and don't give up!

Man, thanks for another reply. I should have posted on this forum long ago; I feel like I'm not alone in the world of optimizing VA Bach Grands! They can be frustrating; I know they have greatness in them, but coaxing it out of them can be challenging.

Case and point, I must agree with you Paraneer; the Bach Grands are VERY sensitive to placement. After reading your comment I decided to go back and revisit the "isosceles triangle" setup. This is something I have tried before I was using my ATOLL. After a few minutes and a few test discs, I think this may be my new positioning, its has clearled up some of the boominess.

But, may I comment for a second on your REL T-1 sub: OMG!!! I can't believe your can fit that into your setup; sometimes I feel like the Bach Grands have a sub hidden in them somewhere, LOL! So, good for you that you can pull off that setup, what you've described sounds wicked-awesome! I may one day contemplate Parasound if I want to upgrade.

Well, I'll work with these new modifications that were suggested here and see how it goes for the next while. Happy listening.

You're welcome jolito. Good to hear the isosceles configuation coupled with the ATOLL seems to be helping.

Regarding the REL, they are are touted as being a sub-bass systems and not a subwoofer. I agree with this due to their unique bi-connections of high level plus an LFE .1 sub cable. They are subtle and only fill in the last two octaves of bass. When the Bachs begin to roll off, the REL works its magic. Finding the right spot for the REL was a real challenge however. Tooks hours of small incremental changes in position listening to steady a bassline over and over again until I got, at least what I think, is the right spot. It was fun though!

I wouldn't be too quick to upgrade that ATOLL. What I have read about it, with its true dual mono construction, it looks killer.

Interesting comment about REL. I have always heard REL was to VA as ketchup is to meatloaf. I'm about to get a new sub and am planning to go to HSU for sheer power.

I have the Beethoven Concert Grand and Maestro speakers, driven by Rotels RMB-1575, with Marantz AV8801 as pre-pro.

Anybody that uses Parasound Halo amps, and can give a feedback on the sound?

Was wondering on upgrading the Rotel to a Halo A31 for the fronts, and maybe A52 to my 4 surrounds.

I am noticing more distortion on my Maestro and one of my Waltz surround channels. The left woofer on the Maestro vibrates on lower frequencies, while the Waltz tweeter is blown. I am getting ready to contact warranty service. Does anyone have experience replacing the components, or dealing with customer service?

New Symphony Edition http://www.vienna-acoustics.com/news/BBG-SE.pdf

hi

I've recently acquired used pair of vienna accoustics mozart (not the grand, the older model).

I'm currently pairing them with rotel amp rb-971 (70 watt - 8ohms) and considering another more powerful amp.

I'm looking for some neutral amp suggestions (have my mind set on a "very neutral" AVI amp 100watt). seeking to get a big & spacious sound as far as those speaker allow.

anyway concurrently with getting a suitable amp, I'm looking for some placement guidance considering these facts:

1. my living room is 4 meters deep and 5 meters wide. distance between speakers is 2.5 meters.

2. due to space limitations, i'm placing the speakers about 15cm from the wall. the left speaker is around a meter from the side wall with a balcony.

3. since i have a wooden floor, my speakers are placed on plastic square (same one used to cut vegetables). sounds funny but gives the floor a full protection from spikes and looks nice too.

4. I shoved a piece of cloth to the lower port to reduce bass resonance. sound is now more accurate and less irritating.

5. currently using appleTV with a decent DAC (grant fidelity tubedac-11) which got great review and was able to buy cheap.
cables are chord crimson plus interconnect and silverscreen for speakers.

I would appreciate any comments/ suggestion on the above in order to get the best out of these speakers. I know they are capable of giving me much better sound than at present.

thanks
Simon

Review post #1750 of this thread.

Hey guys, I'm new to AVS but I've been collecting audio equipment for many years. I got a new bedroom set about a year ago and had to downsize that system. Since then I've gone through numerous speakers and haven't liked anything. I heard the Vienna's a few years back and really like their warm sound. I just came across a good deal locally on a set of the classic Bachs. I heard the Bach Grands before. Before I go and pick them up tomorrow I was wondering if anyone could tell me the difference between the new and old model. I couldn't find any information online about the changes. I read something about the classics should fill the bases with sand? I don't like the sound of that. My other concern is placement. They'll have to go very close to the wall. I read that they are very picky about placement. The Bach's are only an option because of their small foot print. My room requirements are the killer. I'd appreciate any advice you could lend. Thanks

If you can get the pair for less than $500, I would scoop them up.

I own the classic Bachs. I have not heard the Grands, but the classic models are supposedly a little more laid back and smooth sounding, probably a few db more sucked out in the 1.2-5khz range which is where all VA models are all scooped out according to measurements I've seen (compare the stereophile measurements of the mozart classics to other measurements of the mozart grands). As for positioning, I think if you cannot get them out from the walls, you will likely not enjoy them much. Sixteen inches from the back of the speaker to the wall behind is about the closest I've had mine; otherwise, prepare for boomy, overblown bass. Perhaps a pair of the front ported Haydn Grands would be a better fit?

WIN, I have the Grands and there are several differences between the classic Bach and the Bach Grand. The biggest is the TBR (Twin-Balanced-Reflex) bass loading system on the Grand. It is essentially two ports - a classic port in the rear and another one around the tweeter. Also, the 7" bass driver on the Grand is different using VA's proprietary XPP material.

As many have pointed out, the Grands are very particular to room placement, especially because of this designed bass response. But once you get them out away from the walls and find their sweet spot, they will reward you with stellar performance. I agree with Alexander about 16" minimum, more if possible. Mine are 17". Also, as Alexander suggests, if you like the VA sound maybe the front ported Haydn Grand would be a better fit . It uses the same TBR system as the Bach Grand but with no rear port. Good luck.

Thank you for the advice. The pair of Bach's I found are local and he's only asking $500. He says they're mint, and they appear to be in the pictures. I figured for only 500 if I didn't like them I wouldn't lose much money to sell them if they didn't work out, but I'd rather not go through the hassle. I know a nice bookshelf would probably work best in my room, but I've always preferred floor standing speakers. Especially since with the stands they're going to take up the same space. I was getting ready to pick up the Bach's.. Now I may have to look into the Haydn's. Since they have to go against the wall I suppose I really need something sealed or ported in the front. My budget is very flexible if you have any other suggestions.

You're welcome WIN. Glad we were able to help. Even though the classic Bachs can be had a good price, why get them if you already know they won't work. I tell my wife this all the time when she buys something she doesn't need because it was on sale!

Check this link out. They are brand new and bidding still going on...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vienna-Acoustics-Haydn-Grand-Main-Stereo-Speakers-/200903641656?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item2ec6ca4a38

Good luck!

Thanks, those are already on my eBay watch list. I've actually got a room full of speakers and audio equipment. I love to collect and find it very hard to pass up a good deal. Will the Haydn's have the same sonic signature just without the being able to go as low?

Without owning the Haydn Grands, I cannot say for certain. When I heard them in a showroom once they had that smooth, slightly warm sound that VA's are know for - very musical. So I would think so. Unfortunately, they were in a different room than the Bach Grands that I settled upon. Hopefully some Haydn Grand owners will chime in.

Looking at measurements, the only real difference between the two, aside from the extra low frequency exention of the Bachs, is that the Haydns, like the beethovens and mozarts, have a bit of a rise starting around 500 to 1khz, which ought to make vocals stand out a little more but could also make voices sound dry and occasionally even unruly ( I think the Bachs might actually sound less lit up but ultimately more natural)

Measurements for Haydn Grand (bottom line of graph): http://www.hometheater.com/content/vienna-acoustics-beethoven-baby-grand-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

Measurements for Bach Grand (bottom line of graph): http://www.hometheater.com/content/vienna-acoustics-beethoven-baby-grand-speaker-system-rel-r-305-subwoofer-and-optoma-hd72-dl-1

The Haydns also seem a few db more sensitive 88 vs 86.5.

For more info, a reviewer for Hi-Fi World UK actually reviewed both models:

Bach Grand Review: http://www.vienna-acoustics.com/reviews/ConcertGrand/Bach/CGS_Ba0703_HifiWorld_Engl.pdf

Haydn Grand Review: http://www.vienna-acoustics.com/reviews/ConcertGrand/Haydn/VAHAYDNGRANDHFW6-08.pdf

I'm actually watching the very same pair of haydns on ebay to maybe replace my older Bachs ( simply take up too much space in my 12x10 room); but i think i'd really prefer a pair in cherry or rosewood finish, since, as past experience attests, piano black is a damn finger print and scratch magnet -- and i'd hate for that to happen to a speaker as sexy as the little Haydns!
Edited by alexander717 - 3/10/13 at 3:56pm

Thanks for the info. Can I ask how you have your Bach's positioned in that room? Yes the black Haydn's will scratch up horribly. You definitely shouldn't bid on them:D

Haha :P

Currently, my room and placement is pretty bad. I have the Bachs placed about 6 feet apart measured from tweeter to tweeter and 18 inches from the back wall (could probably do a little less) with about 15 degrees of toe in. I sit about 8-9 feet away. One speaker is pretty close to a sidewall near a corner, but they share that wall with the door and lots of junk (too much furniture) has so far prevented me from giving them proper room to breathe on a different wall in the room. So, yeah, not a very ideal setup or space, yet it sounds pretty good all things considered. I have briefly had them in a different room where they sounded much better. VA speakers, as most speakers really, do benefit from being set up in free space; also VA speakers can be spread out quite widely and usually sound better for it, a very wide and large sound-stage being the result.