The *OFFICIAL* Vienna Acoustics Owners Thread - Page 2

wee little bump, thanks

The Haydns are a great speaker. And they can be used for the surrounds if you want to goto a 5.1 setup later. I have not heard any Viennas with Halo electronics but really like the Halo line. For wonderful synergy I would first recommend you audition (if possible) the Primare I30 integrated or if you want seperates, the Primare PRE30/A30.2 combo.

I wan't planning on spending $2,500 on the pre/amp so the I30 is out for me. Would you go with NAD or Parasound, if you had to decide between those two?

Anyone help here?
Thanks

I was seriously considering the Haydn Grands for my two channel critical listening system, after reading the Absolute Sound rave review, until I got to the point that you need 100-125 wpc to drive them well.

I will be using these 45wpc set monoblocks:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ube&1197300434

and it appears they won't be up to the task, based on the review

The Primare A21 is $1495. and of course you could always hope to find Priamre on audiogon for less than these retail prices. My personal preference between NAD & Parasound would lean towards Parasound Halo.

I was using a Marantz SR8500 (125 watts/ch) with a 5.1 Vienna setup and was still able to send it into protection mode with "spirited" listening. IMO 20-30 more watts in a receiver really does not make a big difference. The amp/power supply in most receivers are so similiar that it doesnt matter unless you are talking a bout a mega-receiver like Lexicon/Sunfire, etc. The manufacturers generally give wattage ratings with 1 or 2 channels driven...not 5-7. So that receiver that is rated at 110 watts/ch is supplying WAY less in actual listening conditions.

The Marantz 7002 should be fine for your application.

Vienna recommends 25-180 watts as amplifier power. TAS's 100-125wpc recommendation is probably assuming you are using a solid state amp and not a mono tube like you will be. The Haydns are quite sensitive at 89dB so 45wpc with a triode tube should pleasantly surprise you with the available output. Of course this is dependent on your listening preferences. The Haydns are small speakers after all. A good sub would be very recommended as well!

Thanks Jedi, I was talking to a Marantz dealer yesterday and not surprisingly he suggested the 8002 (125 watts). I may just spend the extra bucks since this receiver will probably last a while. I am a little leery though of buying a new model without even the benefit of a review, or whether there may be any bugs.
Thanks again.
Brian

Amp power ratings make no sense. You don't need 100 watts per channel in reality, but then again, most AVRs that say they output 100 watts may be able to output 100 watts from one of any of the five or seven channels at any one time, not all at once. Harman/kardon claims its ratings are "all channels driven", so their ratings are always lower than anyone else. Onkyo clearly state they measure "two channels driven".

What you probably need is 35 watts of "clean" power: no clipping, no distortion, so that you can get to 85-90dB listening levels without issue. Hearing loss over time can start from 85dB and higher. I have three AVRs right now: a Yamaha, a Denon and a harman/kardon. They are all rated differently but all output the same SPL measured sound levels (from the same speakers) at the -35dB setting on the factory adjusted volume control. The most powerful amplifier (not an AVR) I own is a NAD. I have not measured the output with a SPL meter, but this amp, rated at just 50 watts per channel, has more power than any of the others and has never clipped or contributed to distorted sound.

Your Marantz is probably just fine. If you find you are playing so loud that you hear distortion or clipping, then what you need is an extra dedicated amplifier to use with your pre-outs, not a more powerful AVR (total waste of time IMHO). You may be able to avoid this by getting a high power amplifier that is not an AVR from the outset, even if the power ratings seem modest in comparison.

as a vienna dealer, a amplifier that is stable below 4 ohms comes highly recommended. A typical receiver will not work that great in the long run. A great middle of the road cost route is to buy a receiver as a pre-amp and a moderate power amp to use with it that is stable to 4ohms. It is not impossible to run them off a receiver, it just doesn't seem to be nearly as stable as using the proper amplifier. You can find many good two-channel amplifiers for well under $1000. You don't need to buy a $5000 setup to run them or anything but a 800-1400$ receiver generally will eventually end up in protect mode or something in the speaker will give up its life (especially when the party gets going and a few drinks get in the guy with the volume control in his hands....). It is not a wattage issue however, a good high current 4ohm stable amp could have ~50 watts and drive them considerably louder then you will probably require.

I'm looking to buy a pair for Hayden Grand's for stereo listening. What integrated or pre/amp would you choose in the $1500 price range? I was looking at Cambridge audio integrated Azur 840A, which is rated at 200wpc 4ohms, or perhaps the Parasound P3/A23 pre/amp combo. Would either of these options (or both) be up to the task of driving the Haydns?

Thanks,
Eric

I have never heard either of these specific units so it is really hard for me to comment directly on them. However, both are solid brands and should be up to the task I would imagine!

I personally purchased the Primare i20 a few years back after comparing against many items including 3-4 units I did not sell and couldn't get a discount on. The top contenders for me at the time were:
B&K ref5 preamp with 2 ref200 mono blocks (about 3500$)
Krell kav400 (can't remember the exact model, it was $3500)
Adding a pair of mono blocks to my then yamaha receiver (top of the line model from 2002, can't remember the number, sold it long ago)
A few various tube amplifiers between 1500-2500

The primare was kind of the shocker because of the pricing (1250$ at the time) and I had never heard of the brand before. It showed up one day, I plugged it in and was shocked at how much better it was to my ears. I won't talk about features because it doesn't have any except great sound and simplicity (even the girlfriend can run it....) The replacement is the i21 at ~$1500. Seems like a very solid replacement to me. I know they come in a bit "low" on wattage on paper but the sound is fantastic and they have no issues with a 4ohm speaker IMO.

That being said, I would imagine that most of the dealers would let you at least try a few integrated type amplifiers or pre-amp/power amp combos on your system for a few days to see what you prefer. Don't go crazy, pick two or three and test them, pick the one that sounds the best to you that you can afford and are willing to live with (style, remote control etc is very important even though many 'audiophiles' won't admit it)

Thanks all. I hope the Marantz 8002 works. If the paragraph below is close to accurate I guess I should be fine with 125 watts advertised. This stuff definitely gets too technical for me. I would like for this setup to work as I don't have too much room for additional pieces in my current wall unit layout. I'm not sure if this is advertising bs or what. It was written about the SR7400 which is several years old.

Marantz and Power
Marantz have concentrated on making amplifiers which really deliver on their rated power figures – most manufacturers don’t do this. They have put real effort into improving their power supplies and the result is all the range (not just the expensive models) are capable of generating almost as much power when driving multiple amplifiers as in stereo mode. Marantz call this Guaranteed Multi-channel Power. In fact Marantz even give a formal guarantee - the Full Channel Drive (with at least) 70% Power guarantee - a type of guarantee rarely given in this industry. It means that the surround receiver will deliver 70% of its rated power when all amps are run. This compares with often much less than 50% for most cheaper sound receivers and is predominantly the reason why the SR-5400 recently won the surround receiver super test in the November 2003 issue of the British magazine Home Cinema Choice. Some of its well known competitor brands put out models which delivered 35w (five channels driven) when their official rating was 85w!

Thanks again.

Would this primare A30.5 be able to run this setup:

- Beethoven concert grand as fronts
- Maestro center channel
- Haydn as rears

Using a pioneer reciever as pre.

PS: Still town between dynaudio and vienna speakers for my next speakerupgrade.

yes. viennas are 4 ohm speakers so the A30.5 would be putting out 200wpc which shoud be more than sufficient. that is a fantastic amp. I had Vienna Mahlers, Oratorio center and pair of waltz running off that amp briefly and was extremely satisfied with the results.

Thanks for that input! sounds great.
I might go for the strauss actually if I can get a pair used. I'll use them in a 27m2 room, thats a 19´x16´ food room and about 6 feet tall, taller in the middle because of a tilted ceiling. Would still use the maestro center and haydn as rears though.
Still torn about dynaudio and vienna though!

I would use the Oratorio center if you buy the Strauss. The reference line uses different drivers than the grand line so using the maestro with the strauss will not have a seamless transition in the front stage. Also, the Oratorio uses much larger drivers than the maestro and is designed to "keep up" with the strauss/mahler. I realize its a dramatic difference in price but its also a dramatic difference in performance.

I have extremely limited experience with Dynaudio so your on your own

Due to space limitations in my HT cabinet - it's necessary to lie my Haydn Grands on their side for L & R and I have the Theatro for center. Any problems laying these on their sides? DO I need to put some type of padding under them (they would be laying on wood)?

I've had Haydn Grands laying on their sides as my rears for going on 4 years now without any problems. I put a thin piece of felt under the speakers.

the rick: have you heard of any pending replacement for the strauss/mahler/oratorio? I recall seeing in Stereophile's show coverage of CES or CEATEC recently that Vienna was demo'ing a new "reference" model speaker, which I would assume would either replace the Mahler/Strauss or perhaps be the start of an entirely new line. I have yet to have heard the Strauss/Mahler myself, but after being thoroughly impressed with the sound out of a pair of Beethoven Concert Grands, I have a strong feeling that the Strauss (too many reviews have critiqued the Mahlers for "bloated" bass) may be my new fronts in my media room.

The sound of the reference line is definitely a step above the Grand line. The Mahler and Strauss both use side-mounted 10" woofers so room placement and setup is very critical. I'm sure that contributed greatly to the "bloated bass" reviewers experienced. I had a pair of Mahlers in a large room with them several feet from all walls and had no issues with bloated bass. They absolutely crushed my Beethovens in every regard. But they do require a large room with plenty of breathing room to excel.

I have Rosewood Mahler speakers for the fronts, Waltzs for the surrounds and a Maestro for my center. I have been looking to upgrade my center to a Oratorio, but am having a tough time finding them out on the used market (or even new for that matter!)

Any ideas of a used Oratorio out there?

Call Sumiko and they can tell you where the nearest dealer is. They can then order one for you or may even have a demo model. I rarely see them on the used market as well.

Thanks! I sent a message to Sumiko. They are about an hour away from where I live.

I'm debating between B&W 704's and Bach's at roughly the same price point. I have B&K Ref 4420 (225wpc dual mono) so I should be good on power. Any thoughts? Usage will be main LR mixed HT/Music. Music tastes are varied from Rock to Jazz to Blues with occasional forays into other types. Whichever I get I'll add the complementary center and surrounds down the road. The room itself is fairly hard with H/W floors, a stone wall on 1 side, and few "soft" things.

One question, how sensitive to placement and room are they? I've got good space L/R, but they'll be fairly close to a drywall wall (<1ft) behind them and note they are rear ported.

Also, I normally don't prefer soft tweeter speakers, but for some reason these sounded great, at least in the demo room. Do most of the owners in here prefer the soft dome tweeter "smooth" sound, or was my initial impression that they sounded pretty detailed need to be revisited?

Well I finally found a nice used one. Is $1600 a reasonable deal for an Oratorio in rosewood? (It doesn't feel like a great deal at all, but sort of "ok")

Steve- I think vienna makes a good amount of detail but it is not the most detailed sound around. However, I do find they don't tend to fatigue my ears the way a typical metal tweeter speaker tends to. I find them to be a good balance

With viennas, I find that they should either be very close to the rear wall (close coupled setup, less then 5") or more then 18" in a typical room. However, every room is different and the only way one will know for sure is to play around with the various options

considering that is less than half of its retail price I would say that is more than "sort of ok".

half of retail for a speaker that is in good shape is a pretty damn good deal when the speaker is still relevant and not "old news" etc