or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › The *OFFICIAL* Vienna Acoustics Owners Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The *OFFICIAL* Vienna Acoustics Owners Thread - Page 11

post #301 of 3008
Thank you very much!!!!
post #302 of 3008
can i get some insight on the "star" setup or whatever its called?
post #303 of 3008
Hi BigRed,

The two setup procedures are techniques taught by Sumiko to it's dealers. It is generally offered by dealers to customers who have purchased product from them. The technique is proprietary and is generally not shared with the public. Take no offense, I could describe the process to my hearts content and you could read it very very carefully. But it would be akin to me trying to teach you to tune a guitar without having you right next to me. Wouldn't work would it? For this same reason we ask our dealers to not try to teach the methods. Learning to tune a guitar does not make one a virtuoso. Learning these processes takes several hundred repetitions.

Here is an overview of the procedures:

MASTERS: A training that includes a the teaching of a comprehensive, regimented 4 step two channel speaker and REL sub-bass system setup technique that optimizes performance in any room. The setup is achieved all by hand and ear. 3 days.

STAR: A training that includes the history of film sound, its applications in the Pro world and, by direct lineage, its ramifications in home theater. An extension of MASTERS, the setup technique taught allows the optimization of the center and surround channels through physical positioning and the manipulation of the gains and delays structure with in the surround processor. It also describes and teaches the function and setup of multiple REL sub-bass systems for hi-level and LFE performance. It is also all done by hand and ear. 2 days.

Hope this helps!

d.
post #304 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Carr View Post

Hi BigRed,

The two setup procedures are techniques taught by Sumiko to it's dealers. It is generally offered by dealers to customers who have purchased product from them. The technique is proprietary and is generally not shared with the public. Take no offense, I could describe the process to my hearts content and you could read it very very carefully. But it would be akin to me trying to teach you to tune a guitar without having you right next to me. Wouldn't work would it? For this same reason we ask our dealers to not try to teach the methods. Learning to tune a guitar does not make one a virtuoso. Learning these processes takes several hundred repetitions.

Here is an overview of the procedures:

MASTERS: A training that includes a the teaching of a comprehensive, regimented 4 step two channel speaker and REL sub-bass system setup technique that optimizes performance in any room. The setup is achieved all by hand and ear. 3 days.

STAR: A training that includes the history of film sound, its applications in the Pro world and, by direct lineage, its ramifications in home theater. An extension of MASTERS, the setup technique taught allows the optimization of the center and surround channels through physical positioning and the manipulation of the gains and delays structure with in the surround processor. It also describes and teaches the function and setup of multiple REL sub-bass systems for hi-level and LFE performance. It is also all done by hand and ear. 2 days.

Hope this helps!

d.

hm weird did not realize this, thanks!
post #305 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigred7078 View Post

hm weird did not realize this, thanks!


To put what david has said in very simple terms, we move around speakers in a room in a set process in order to get the most performance in the given room for both 2ch listening (masters) and home theater (star)

It's really looks simple but its hard to do well until you have done it many times! I can honestly say I have turned a few terrible rooms into decent sounding systems with some small movements (despite what this forum thinks, a huge % of the customers will refuse all room treatments, regardless of how good speakers they select are). Proper setup makes a HUGE difference in sound and IMO you can easily double or triple the value of your speakers by simply setting them up correctly for the space they are going to go into.
post #306 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by the rick View Post

To put what david has said in very simple terms, we move around speakers in a room in a set process in order to get the most performance in the given room for both 2ch listening (masters) and home theater (star)

It's really looks simple but its hard to do well until you have done it many times! I can honestly say I have turned a few terrible rooms into decent sounding systems with some small movements (despite what this forum thinks, a huge % of the customers will refuse all room treatments, regardless of how good speakers they select are). Proper setup makes a HUGE difference in sound and IMO you can easily double or triple the value of your speakers by simply setting them up correctly for the space they are going to go into.

im with you on that, slight adjustments in setup can definately make big differences.
post #307 of 3008
well just put in my order for some Mozart Grands in Rosewood. I'm stoked. Should be in by friday. Any tips for setup?
post #308 of 3008
First off, Congratulations!!

Carrying on...

I'm doing this outside of my better judgement, but here it goes:

Four Rules:

1. Spread the speakers at least 9-10 feet apart, but up to 12-13 feet. Distance apart should form an equilateral triangle with the listening position.

2. Pull them out from the wall equally about 20-24", or more if space allows. This generally means just ahead of your AV rack. Alternately, you can place them about 2-4" out. The area in between these two points is unusable. The outer position will sound better so is recommended if you can. Using a music track with a centralized vocal and bassist, and move the left or right speakers to achieve a center image. If the vocal/bass are on the left, pull out the right speaker to adjust. If the image is on the right, push back the right speaker to adjust. These movements are typically small.

3. Toe the speakers in toward the listener, so that a line drawn out from each of the two speakers intersects about 1 to 1 1/2 ft behind the listening seat.

4. Level the speakers so that they are not wobbling, using the spikes to adjust. A bubble level can be used to make the speakers plumb.

Additionally, most Viennas will sound better if they are raked back slightly using the front spikes. This is usually not more than a full turn or two.

THIS NOT A MASTERS SETUP!!!! You cannot replace a professional's assistance in achieving optimal results. These tips will get you better results than you might otherwise get.

Let me know how it turns out.

Enjoy!

d.
post #309 of 3008
Dave,

Thank you very much for the response! I appreciate the input!!! I'll try applying your tips in my setup process and see what i come up with! I'll be sure to post back with results and pics.

-Steve
post #310 of 3008
Thanks, Dave, for sharing the tips! It's awesome to have someone with professional background sharing information with us BTW, my REL R-505 is weeks away, since I ordered cherry finish. Sounds like not very many people order REL's in cherry.
post #311 of 3008
Sorry to hear about the delay on your R-505. Black is far and away the best seller, mainly because the wood veneers are more expensive. We generally have all finishes available, but it seems as though we didn't in this case.

Congratulations again!
post #312 of 3008
My buddy is selling his R-305 in PB that he got at a sumiko training. Should i jump on it at $700? great price, but will it work fine for my 15x20 room 9ft ceilings? Im not as familiar with REL subs so any insight would be much appreciated. Thanks

Edit: Just to elaborate a bit, i currently have a klipsch RW-12d as a sub. So should i jump on the R-305 first or get the Maestro Center Channel?
post #313 of 3008
Hi Dave,

I know this will vary with the room acoustics, but what's the typical or ideal crossover setting for the REL R-505 when used with a pair of Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Concert Grand? I listen to classical music mainly.

Thanks in advance.
post #314 of 3008
There is unfortunately no generic answer for your question, but I can give you a few simple guidelines to help you along the way:

1. GET SOME HELP. I mean anyone. That way one person can adjust the controls and the other can listen.

2. When listening, the REL can be taken in and out of the system by simply disconnecting the signal cables. Don't turn them off, it takes too long for them to shut down and come back. This makes it hard to pull them in and out quickly, so that you can hear the difference.

3. Read the manual. I know this sounds rudimentary, but the setup process that is described works really well.

4. Whenever possible, use the hi-level Speak-On connection. Trust me, it just sounds better. For theater, you still want to use the LFE/low-level connection at the same time. They have independent volume knobs for that purpose.

5. Use a corner whenever possible. This is counter intuitive for traditional woofer setup, but is very important for reproduction of the lowest frequencies. Plus, your significant other will probably want it there anyway.

6. Set your speakers to LARGE. If it is a Vienna Acoustics product, it was designed to make bass. Don't hamstring your system!

7. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART. Keep the crossover low. This allows you to use enough gain to be able to get true low bass, without muddying the sound of your mains. That's the Mantra: low crossover, high gain. Repeat ad naseum.

8. Use a track that has true low bass, and uses really musicians. We recommend track 4 from the soundtrack to 'Sneakers', a Robert Redford film from the early 90's. Most pop tracks do not have any truly low bass.

Good Luck!

d.
post #315 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Carr View Post

There is unfortunately no generic answer for your question, but I can give you a few simple guidelines to help you along the way:

5. Use a corner whenever possible. This is counter intuitive for traditional woofer setup, but is very important for reproduction of the lowest frequencies. Plus, your significant other will probably want it there anyway.



Here is another method for locating subwoofers: Put the subwoofer in your listening position and then walk around room and find an area where the subwoofer sounds loudest. Locate the sub here! In many cases, the corner will be the best location, but not always.
post #316 of 3008
Ah the age old method.

We have discovered something about what that method does, though; All you are really doing is reinforcing specific room modes (resonant peaks). As sighted by Floyd Poole, the corner is the best place to create linear sub 40Hz bass.

There are three main reasons why you want to use a front corner:

1. The corner provides 12+ db of free mechanical gain. All of that extra power is necessary if you want to recreate sub 20Hz bass. Normally you can't place a speaker back in the corner because it is highly modal. But in the case of a REL, the crossover points are so low that we make use of the gain without exciting the modes.

2. Firing the woofer from the corner into the opposite corner allows for the longest wave launch possible. A 20Hz sine wave is 56ft long. A 1/4 wave or more is required to intone the pitch. Particularly in small rooms, the corner may be the only place possible to do this.

3. The woofer should be on the firing plane of the speaker. This is to ensure that the energy of the speaker and the energy of the woofer come from the same direction. Bass may not be directional, but it is impulse based. You can feel the direction of the bass as it pulses.
post #317 of 3008
Don't forget that crawling all over your room listening isn't the most fun
post #318 of 3008
Dave, you're so awesome! Thanks for the tips. I'm patiently awaiting its arrival
post #319 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Carr View Post

Ah the age old method.

We have discovered something about what that method does, though; All you are really doing is reinforcing specific room modes (resonant peaks). As sighted by Frank Poole, the corner is the best place to create linear sub 40Hz bass.

There are three main reasons why you want to use a front corner:

1. The corner provides 12+ db of free mechanical gain. All of that extra power is necessary if you want to recreate sub 20Hz bass. Normally you can't place a speaker back in the corner because it is highly modal. But in the case of a REL, the crossover points are so low that we make use of the gain without exciting the modes.

2. Firing the woofer from the corner into the opposite corner allows for the longest wave launch possible. A 20Hz sine wave is 56ft long. A 1/4 wave or more is required to intone the pitch. Particularly in small rooms, the corner may be the only place possible to do this.

3. The woofer should be on the firing plane of the speaker. This is to ensure that the energy of the speaker and the energy of the woofer come from the same direction. Bass may not be directional, but it is impulse based. You can feel the direction of the bass as it pulses.

I think this clearly indictes that audio of more or an art than pure science, with varying opinons on how to do subwoofer setup.

Although I do not take issue with Dave's comments, here is what Paul Barton and Chief Engineer of PSB subs has to say: Place the sub in the same spot as the listening chair, then crawl around the room with your ear close to the floor, listening for the spot where the sound is the most even -- that is, where nothing sounds absent or exaggerated. Once you've found this spot, move the sub there, return to your listening chair, and listen again. Barton recommends that during this process you play only music with sustained deep bass, not movies or other material that might feature only brief, intermittent periods of bass.

Bob Carver suugests pretty much the same approach in setting up his signature subwoofer.
post #320 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy1 View Post

I think this clearly indictes that audio of more or an art than pure science, with varying opinons on how to do subwoofer setup.

Although I do not take issue with Dave's comments, here is what Paul Barton and Chief Engineer of PSB subs has to say: Place the sub in the same spot as the listening chair, then crawl around the room with your ear close to the floor, listening for the spot where the sound is the most even -- that is, where nothing sounds absent or exaggerated. Once you've found this spot, move the sub there, return to your listening chair, and listen again. Barton recommends that during this process you play only music with sustained deep bass, not movies or other material that might feature only brief, intermittent periods of bass.

Bob Carver suugests pretty much the same approach in setting up his signature subwoofer.

i think their comments are based on REL sub-bass designs, not other subs since i believe the RELs are designed differently if im not mistaken.
post #321 of 3008
You are absolutely correct. RELs are optimized for bass under 40Hz (low-bass), which is a completely different assignment from bass above 40Hz (mid-bass).

There was an interesting study done by Floyd Toole in 1980's, when he was still at the Canadian NRC. The study stated that the optimal woofer compliment was an infinite amount of woofers, in an infinite amount of positions. It then proceeded to state that the next most optimal compliment for bass above 40hz was four woofers in the middle of each wall. It then finished with the conclusion that bass below 40Hz was best served by four woofers placed in each corner. In either case, the setup could be halved if necessary to reduce the number of woofers (from 4 to 2 to 1).

This research only confirmed what we had concluded in experimenting with not only REL product, but a number of other subwoofers as well.

Remember, RELs are about optimizing low-bass, not bloating mid-bass. Most speakers today, even many compact stand mounts, are capable of generating bass in the 40Hz range. Virtually all of the the Vienna Acoustics product is included in this. The question then is why one would want to potentially harm the performance of any of these speakers by having a woofer operating at 80Hz?

80Hz bass from a subwoofer is necessary for film reproduction. This is why REL has given you two individually adjustable inputs. One for LFE, the 5.1 effects channel that is mainly concentrated in the 40-120Hz band. And one for low bass support, using a high-level (speaker level) connection that can be crossed over very low without impacting LFE. The best part is that these inputs are used simultaneously, so that the user does not need to adjust his woofer for music vs. film, and still maintains low-bass support for ALL listening.

I hope this clarifies things a bit.

d.
post #322 of 3008
i picked up a present today

post #323 of 3008
a few more initial shots



post #324 of 3008
Beautiful!

That's the rosewood that I know and love!

Enjoy!
post #325 of 3008
Reminds me when I bought my first pair of Vienna's - Bach's in rosewood (pre grand series).Now they're surround speakers, but it's hard not to grin when you glance at them.

What amp are you going to be using?

oh and grats!
post #326 of 3008
Compare to the older models (couldn't resist posting my girls):

last gen Bach before the swap to grand (I much prefer the driver in the older Bachs)


last gen Beethoven before the swap to grand (Even the beechwood looks amazing)

LL
LL
post #327 of 3008
Dave,

Yeah they sure are beautiful. When i pulled them out at the store they were brownish in color and barely appeared to have any red in them, then when i got them home they were a rich deep red-brown like the pics show. So i can see how its hard to get a proper picture to really represent them! lol. And wow even out of the box these babies sound wonderful...The bass will just freakin kick you right in the chest! I have honestly only heard the Mozart Grands on mid- level integrated receivers, and holy crap the difference by using a separate amp is night and day IMO. I'll be giving them some break in time over the next few days and then see what they are really capable of!
post #328 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by thisbenjamin View Post

Reminds me when I bought my first pair of Vienna's - Bach's in rosewood (pre grand series).Now they're surround speakers, but it's hard not to grin when you glance at them.

What amp are you going to be using?

oh and grats!


Thanks! and i will be using something from a company probably most people here have not heard of. I am using an amp and processor combo from Emotiva, an internet direct company that was originally under AV123. They are really big on this forum so some may know them.

I actually have two amps, the RPA-1 (2x300 @4ohms) and the XPA-3 (3x 350 @4ohms). The RPA-1 is a class H amp that has alot of finesse IMO, so i will probably be using that to power the Mozart Grands. The XPA-3 i will use for the Maestro when i get it, and the Haydns when i get them. Their products are built like tanks!!! my RPA-1 weighs 65lbs and the XPA-3 weighs 75lbs. And they sound GREAT. If you want specs on them just got to Emotiva.com. Oh and they are cheap since they are an ID company.

Here is a pic of my Processor, the DMC-1, which is on top and the RPA-1 which is on bottom.



And here is a pic of them all in my stand (almost to much weight lol!)

post #329 of 3008
Yeah I see after the fact that your stands are angled forward a bit on the feet, at first I thought it was buckling under the load. Ive seen those somewhere before, I think it might have been when I was looking for a new pre-pro to replace my 3806/3808Ci. I've got a B&K Reference 200.5 S2, and really don't want to use the unbalanced interconnects. Thankfully B&K are finally about to release their 700 series Pre/Pro that supports HDMI switching along with all those fancy audio codecs, and best of all freaking balanced outputs

Anyway I'd love to be in your shoes - enjoying a Vienna Acoustics speaker for the first time. man.
post #330 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by thisbenjamin View Post

Yeah I see after the fact that your stands are angled forward a bit on the feet, at first I thought it was buckling under the load. Ive seen those somewhere before, I think it might have been when I was looking for a new pre-pro to replace my 3806/3808Ci. I've got a B&K Reference 200.5 S2, and really don't want to use the unbalanced interconnects. Thankfully B&K are finally about to release their 700 series Pre/Pro that supports HDMI switching along with all those fancy audio codecs, and best of all freaking balanced outputs

Anyway I'd love to be in your shoes - enjoying a Vienna Acoustics speaker for the first time. man.

lol yeah that picture does make it look like the stand is buckling under the weight! funny haha. And yeah the new Emotiva processor has alot of hype for its release.

My DMC-1 (processor) has balanced outs, and both my amps have balanced inputs. The B&K stuff is very very nice. My friend has a B&K amp, its very good. And dont worry, i'll be enjoying my Mozarts!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Speakers
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › The *OFFICIAL* Vienna Acoustics Owners Thread