Big confusion re HV20 and 24p

It is recorded in 1440x1080 with non-square pixels. It is a question of bandwidth and balancing priorities. (btw, most tape based recording methods use the same technique)

And it can record 24p, it is just stored in a 60i stream (likewise, 25p is recorded but stored as 50i). It is done that way to work with existing standards.

The canon records true 1920X1080 AT THE SENSOR but you will not get this through firewire (the normal method of file transfer). There are certain standards that must be adhered to... and that is the HDV standard, which is 1440x1080 (it can also be 720p) Firewire is restricted to not more than the HDV standard (which is what the television industry has gone with.. So what ever a consumer camcorder can produce doesn't really matter because in the end it must adhere to the HDV standard (1080/60i). So 24p is watchable just so long as it is stuck in what one could describe as a HDV container. The television industry has gone with the HDV standard (1440x1080) because it's actually 4:3 and not 16:9... it simply has elongated pixels. This meshes better with the old NTSC 4:3 technology... which of course is still in use.

Once you've captured your file to computer... you're free to manipulate that file in any way that you want. When people talk about true 24p coming from the canon, what they are basically talking about is manipulting the file on computer by removing the 24p from the HDV container (layman's terms).

It can sort of be compared to watching a hollywood wide screen movie on TV (with the black bars). NTSC is 4:3... so how do you watch a true Hollywood piture? By placing it INSIDE the 4:3 ntsc standard (a rectangle inside a box and blank out the areas that don't get used.... thus.... the black bars)

Some people are looking at the 24p as a bit of a cheat because it's being shown within a 60i frame.... but that's what you're going to get with a consumer camcorder that must adhere to certain HDV standards. . It does however allow for certain advantages... such as better low light capacity.

The 24p that the Canon HV20 provides (as well as some other consumer camcorders) will require that you find some sort of software that will extract the 24p without too many interlace artifacts (since it is stored in an interlace format 60i). This will require a lot of time and money (especially if you don't own the newest dual core processor machines).

You just can't shoot with the HV20 and expect your m2t file to show up in Vegas 7 as a progressive 23.976 file, cause it won't. In fact, Vegas can't even properly convert that file to 24p (at least "7d" won't). It may be included in future updates, but not yet.

24p from the Canon HV20 is not that easy, IMO. Oh, but it's there...

I've edited your post blackbill, let's not start that discussion in yet another thread.
Great explanation otherwise...

It's not 24p right out of the camera, but it IS 24p. You just need a little help getting it there...

Kyser

What?! I thought that since the Canon *is* shooting in 24p, it would be as easy as performing a reverse telecine (ivtc, pullup, whatever you want to call it) to get at the "true" 24p. Why would there be artifacts? (This is not rhetorical. I'm a novice who *thought* I understood what 24p on this Canon was going to be.) Isn't the video captured at a rate of 24 progressive frames and simply stored in the 60i format????

Chris

New on the camcorder scene myself I believe that all of what you have stated is true. I know for a fact that all you have to do is remove the pulldown.

This has already been done by a number of users from the first day the HV20 arrived on the scene.

I had a little trouble with this statement so I posed the question on the vegas board:

http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/for...8207&Replies=2

Bill, you posted this...
And the answer was this...

The Canon can shoot 24p and it does it that same way many other high end cameras do.

What is your issue with this??

Kyser

I have no interest in offending... my words are posted simply as a reflection that it is a consumer camcorder, so that you can't get ACTUAL 24p out of the cam without some work. This is a FACT, and is not intended to offend those that are sensitive to the issue.

Actually, the FACT of the matter is that you can get TRUE 24p out of this camera quite easily.

Or do you disagree? You basically just stated above that Vegas would have no issues with that. We have already proved that After Effect can do it quite easily, as well as many other NLE's.

The problem here is that you like to throw around words like "gimmick" and "can not produce TRUE 24p". That is a joke! There is nothing untrue about the full resolution 24p footage that I'm seeing from the HV20.

This is your LAST warning on the subject. I'm done playing games.

Kyser

Well Kyser... I think you may be a little too sensitive to the issue.

People are buying this cam with the idea that they can transfer 24p off the cam, onto your computer.... you can't. You have to use an editor at an additional expense to reveal the actual 24p. IT DOES SHOOT 24p... you just can't offload it from the cam as such.

But if it bothers you that much, I will certainly edit my words on the other board... What would you like me to say?

Nope, no need to edit your words on another board. Just watch your words here... I've had to edit the word "Gimmick" from you already, even after being warned to let it go.

This quote...
is just fine. It records it the same way many other high end cameras do. It is the NTSC standard.

And it does it for a very nice price.

As I said, this will be my last warning to you here.

Don't expect another one.

PS- If I was the only one who felt this way about your posts I would let it go. As you yourself have mentioned, I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Kyser

Those who wish to know more about 24p and how cameras capture it... only need to look here. http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/#24pRecording

That sums it up for ALL 24p recording. Even the higher end cameras...

It seems the people who have the best luck from extracting 24p from the 60i "Canon wrapper", are ones who either use VLC PLAYER for viewing immediately @ 720p or (on an Apple) MPEG Streamclip, which requires multiple steps to allow the true 24p to emerge from the Canon HV20 file.

It is my understanding that Vegas 7 either has or will have shortly the ability to extract 24p from Sony's V1U 24p camcorder. However, Canon's implimentation of 24p is a little different, and due to competitive reasons, may or may not be included if Vegas 7 updates. We'll just have to see.

Which is FREE btw.
For those who think you need an expensive NLE to get good footage out of this, you don't!

After some web searching I found something to indicate that the CineForm plugin in Vegas 7 may offer the ability to remove the pulldown in HV20 24p RAW files. I have not explored the option yet, so I'll have to see.

However, I have to admit, I am not a strong avocate of 24p Video (at this point). It has many fine professional uses, but for home use 60i is good enough (for me), so I for one am off the subject. YMMV...

I'm of the same opinion.... but we'll see.... my HV20 will be here (I hope) by the end of the week.

Extremely smooth on my PC. Are you talking about when they barely sway in the breeze? The one with the flowers near the end?

Plays perfectly fine on mine. A couple a jerky pans but that's all.

BTW, I would suggest to those not interested in 24p filming should not be posting in a 24p thread. 24p is for people who want a real film-look to their work.

Kyser

They sway quite smoothly on my PC, so do the tassels on the left hand side by the edge of the curtain.
If you can't make out that movement clearly... then something is definitely wrong on your end.

Kyser

PS- I'm at 60hz as well.

Is it a RAM issue?

I will take 24p over 60i, I really dislike interlacing artifacts, just wish they could have a 30p format, which would go much better with 60Hz TVs.


Unless you use a CRT monitor, LCD monitors do not really refresh, the pixels stay on unless instructed by the computer to change. So 24p should be smooth However, if one uses a fixed refresh rate CRT monitor (say at 60Hz), then it would just behave like most TVs, judder would be noticeable.

I believe I looked at it on both of my monitors. One is an LCD, The other, CRT.

I'll have to double check later...

Thanks,

Kyser

If your CRT is multi-scan capable and can do 72 hz, then 24p should be smooth too.

I'm not sure what your issues are but I'm watching it on a Toshiba Satellite laptop with a 1.6ghz processor, 1280 x 800 display, and 2 GB RAM. Not all that expensive...

Latest Windows Media Player.

Plays fine on mine... really. The curtains move just as they they should with a slight breeze.

EDIT: Feel free to ask me anything else about what I have on this laptop, maybe we can figure out what the issue is.

Kyser

My personal experience with 24p is that it will tend to play a bit choppy... especially with faster scenes and faster pans... it's a slower frame rate... it's only natural. I have a pretty fast computer myself and I see the same result as you.

The 24p coming out of the Canon can not (and should not) be compared to the 24p on film... the camcorderinfo review says that in black and white. having said that though... one would kind of wonder what it can be used for... since you can also render a 60i over to 24p on an editor timeline... but the 24p shoot ability (according to the review and others) DOES lend itself to better low light conditions... which is a plus with any camera.