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2007 Samsung LED Owner's Thread (HLT XX87/89S) - Page 196

post #5851 of 14523
9/11/07 at 6:16pm
It has been done and works fine on the PS3 but it does require 1025 or 1026 firmware to get 24fps. It was one several of the pages of this thread but finding it in the 200 pages is not fun

I am referring to the 87 series. It seems the 89 has no problems doing it at any firmware version.
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post #5852 of 14523
9/11/07 at 6:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdreamsmaycome View Post

as said in previous posts I do notice a definite brightness lowering in the top/bottom of the screen depending on the height I sit at: I would consider that at my viewing distance (7') the sweet spot is nearly non-existent (as in, a spot I can sit in where there is absolutely no dimming anywhere). I tend to sit slightly above center, since for me dimming on the sky is wayyy more intrusive than dimming at the bottom of the screen.

On the other hand my girlfriend doesn't seem to notice this at all (I had to point this out to her) and is quite content with watching the tv even very off-center, so I guess it's one of those cases where although there is a definite measurable difference, it doesn't seem to bug everybody the same way.

My wife sits to either side of the tv with no problem. I looked at it from that angle and noticed it looks darker but the quality and sharpness are excellent. I prefer sitting in the center with the surround sound like I'm at the movies and she likes the side seating and we are both very happy.
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post #5853 of 14523
9/11/07 at 6:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markm75 View Post

What all did you adjust in custom settings?

I've tried using my dve test disc, maybe its just no use for that one.. Suggestions?

Also.. what about game mode for tv/hddvd? Is this a bad idea? I thought it made things look a little better? Negative side effects of this?

Cheers

i'll write down the settings later when i go back upstairs. my settings though are not far off from the typical settings floating around here for movie mode. i do have the color up a bit though, and i think gamma is at +1. i'll check for sure later

dve really was of little help to me. i tried the sd disk and the hd dvd disc. the biggest help came from the avia disc and the various test pattern images i've picked up over the years. the hqv bd disc was useful (in a limited way) too...
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post #5854 of 14523
9/11/07 at 7:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrbigvolume View Post

It has been done and works fine on the PS3 but it does require 1025 or 1026 firmware to get 24fps. It was one several of the pages of this thread but finding it in the 200 pages is not fun

I am referring to the 87 series. It seems the 89 has no problems doing it at any firmware version.

Thanks for the quick response, Mrbigvolume. I have read some posts in which members have stated that the HL-T will display 24 fps signals, and I do not dispute this, but I still do not know how it converts 24 fps signals to its own, native frame rate.

Most current gen. TV's update their screen 60 times a second. If the HL-T is one of those, then it must use some "slight-of-vision" technique to display source frames that are updated 24 times a second on a screen that udpates 60 times a second. A common technique is to alternate between repeating frames for 2 screen updates and then 3 screen updates. This results in every two source frames being spread over 5 (3+2) screen updates, which means that every 24 source frames would be spread over 60 screen updates, as desired, but not with an equal amount of screen time allotted to each source frame. Every other frame gets displayed for one additional screen udpate. The result is that the average speed of playback is correct, but scenes which contain certain kinds of motion will not appear to be as smooth as they should. Some people characterise this as "jutter". Camera pans and scrolling credits are types of motion that are often adversly affected by such a conversion.

Some TVs update their screens 120 times a second. On such TVs, 24 fps sources can be displayed by repeating each source frame exaclty 5 times (24 x 5 = 120). All source frames are displayed for an equal amount of time, avoiding the jutter which can occur when converting from 24 to 60 frames per second.

Samsung published an HL-Txx89 specification sheet, on their web site, indicating a 120 Hz update rate, suggesting the possibility that 24 fps sources could be displayed without the jutter, described above. Some individuals, however, insist that the HL-T cannot have a 120 Hz update rate, due to the way their DLP light engines are designed. Furthermore, no material published by Samsung specifically indicates how 24 fps sources are processed. Consequently, I am in need of someone to perform the experiment described in my previous post. Any takers?
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post #5855 of 14523
9/11/07 at 7:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by talbain View Post

i'll write down the settings later when i go back upstairs. my settings though are not far off from the typical settings floating around here for movie mode. i do have the color up a bit though, and i think gamma is at +1. i'll check for sure later

dve really was of little help to me. i tried the sd disk and the hd dvd disc. the biggest help came from the avia disc and the various test pattern images i've picked up over the years. the hqv bd disc was useful (in a limited way) too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bahill View Post

Markm, I've set 5689 to your settings, and agree with everything except for the sharpness, which I dropped back down to 10. And I agree with you and others about DNIe=on. Especially with sporting events, if you run the comparison, the DNIe picture looks much better (to my eyes, anyway).

Did you go into the service menu and turn CCA off and in the picture menu set the color gamut to RGB intially, before calibrating? (Did you also go with the avical starter settings in movie mode before calibrating) I didnt mess with the CCA, i feel I got the color somewhat close. Did you also go in there and change the Gamma setting in the service menu (I think someone mentioned tweaking this, but i'm not sure under which menu it is).

I must say.. using movie mode, I dont notice that much mosquito "noise" or pixelation like in dynamic or standard! (anyone else concur.. i'm referring to behind in the background often you'll see "noise") However, I feel that the set has a greyish cast overit, maybe color wise.. something is not quite rite, but very close though.

Here is the settings i ended up with based on that DVE disc and a blue filter (for HDMI and comcast, originally set using a BluRay player on the other HDMI port)..

Movie mode
Contrast 83
Brightness 43-51 (i cant pinpoint exactly where i like best, even with the contrast test page).. I'd say about 47.
Sharp 0
Color 52
Tint G52
Color tone = Normal (or maybe cool1?)
Detailed settings:
Black adjustment=high (i'm not sure on this one, but i thought it looked better here)
Dynamic Contrast=medium or high (not sure here either)
White balance = +1
Gamma=0
EdgeEnhancements = ON (not sure if this helped anything or not).

I realize these numbers will vary from set to set, but some of the more "detailed settings" i'm really puzzled on whether they are helping or not, or even in the ball park..

Ill be anxious to see what values you are using on yours too.

Thanks
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post #5856 of 14523
9/11/07 at 7:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Techsumer View Post

Thanks for the quick response, Mrbigvolume. I have read some posts in which members have stated that the HL-T will display 24 fps signals, and I do not dispute this, but I still do not know how it converts 24 fps signals to its own, native frame rate.

Most current gen. TV's update their screen 60 times a second. If the HL-T is one of those, then it must use some "slight-of-vision" technique to display source frames that are updated 24 times a second on a screen that udpates 60 times a second. A common technique is to alternate between repeating frames for 2 screen updates and then 3 screen updates. This results in every two source frames being spread over 5 (3+2) screen updates, which means that every 24 source frames would be spread over 60 screen updates, as desired, but not with an equal amount of screen time allotted to each source frame. Every other frame gets displayed for one additional screen udpate. The result is that the average speed of playback is correct, but scenes which contain certain kinds of motion will not appear to be as smooth as they should. Some people characterise this as "jutter". Camera pans and scrolling credits are types of motion that are often adversly affected by 3:2 pulldown.

Some TVs update their screens 120 times a second. On such TVs, 24 fps sources can be displayed by repeating each source frame exaclty 5 times (24 x 5 = 120). All source frames are displayed for an equal amount of time, avoiding the jutter which can occur when converting from 24 to 60 frames per second.

Samsung published an HL-Txx89 specification sheet, on their web site, indicating a 120 Hz update rate, suggesting the possibility that 24 fps sources could be displayed without 3:2 pulldown jutter. Some individuals, however, insist that the HL-T cannot have a 120 Hz update rate, due to the way their DLP light engines are designed. Furthermore, no material published by Samsung specifically indicates how 24 fps sources are processed. Consequently, I am in need of someone to perform the experiment described in the previous post. Any takers?


I posted this awhile ago.. but.. i sorta just did this test.. I ran a BluRay test on the Sony BDP-S300, set to 24p mode=on.. The Tv reports 60hz (it always will apparently, the ps3's show 24hz, but that was a technical fluke according to Samsung).. I used Casino Royale.. I tried a panning scene around 1hr9min40seconds here.. then I tried the car flip on chapter 12.. (this is on my 6187S)

I did the same test 1 minute later on the same player on the Sony 60A3000, with motion enhancement set to Normal.. I really noticed no difference.. though i thought maybe on the car flip one, i saw a little more detail in the headlights as it flipped, but that could be a picture settings slight variation, but as far as jitter.. i wasnt sure there was a difference.

Maybe that wasnt the best test.. but it was enough proof that 24p wise, they are similar to me.

The HL-T6187 is a 3d set.. capable of 120hz according to the tech guy that was here recently.. it makes sense as the 3d requires 60hz per eye.. He also confirmed that it is using that Wobilization 120hz emulation technology (cinemotion?) but i think this is different than the Motion Enhancement on the Sony as it is more for increasing the detail during Pans?
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post #5857 of 14523
9/11/07 at 7:20pm
I know some people on here are deciding whether to go Sony or HLT. I'm on my 2nd 5689s, the first one had terrible RBE and went back, this one almost no RBE but a very nice halo prism reflection.
Here's pics, one taken at a slight angle, the other straight on:

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post #5858 of 14523
9/11/07 at 7:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markm75 View Post

I posted this awhile ago.. but.. i sorta just did this test.. I ran a BluRay test on the Sony BDP-S300, set to 24p mode=on.. The Tv reports 60hz (it always will apparently, the ps3's show 24hz, but that was a technical fluke according to Samsung)..

my tv actually shows 24p. i believe there were also some screen shots a few pages back by some other people with the samsung displaying 24p when the info button is pressed.
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post #5859 of 14523
9/11/07 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markm75 View Post

I posted this awhile ago.. but.. i sorta just did this test.. ... it was enough proof that 24p wise, they are similar to me.

Thanks for the feedback, markm75. That's useful information. Did you try the same experiment on rolling credits? That's usually where I can most easily see 3:2 pulldown jutter.

I would still like to hear about a back-to-back comparison on the HL-T, because the scene would be deliberately played back in a mode that is expected to cause jutter, allowing the tester to confirm that the jutter exists in the selected scene, when 3:2 pulldown is used. In other words, I want someone to deliberately turn the 24 fps mode off and then on, verifying that the jutter is there when it is off, and that it is not there, or is visibly reduced, when it is on. I think such would be the "acid test", for my purposes.
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post #5860 of 14523
9/11/07 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharcyde23 View Post

I know some people on here are deciding whether to go Sony or HLT. I'm on my 2nd 5689s, the first one had terrible RBE and went back, this one almost no RBE but a very nice halo prism reflection.
[/IMG]

I noticed this halo for the first time on my set today, on a test pattern screen with mostly black on it.. was very subtle and white curves in the middle.

Yeah I too am still on the fence on keeping the 6187S (though more encouraged after switching tv modes) or going 60A3K.. I'm inclined to keep the Sammy due to its 3d ability, which i'm banking will becoming pretty big in 2 years.
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post #5861 of 14523
9/11/07 at 7:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markm75 View Post

I noticed this halo for the first time on my set today, on a test pattern screen with mostly black on it.. was very subtle and white curves in the middle.

Yeah I too am still on the fence on keeping the 6187S (though more encouraged after switching tv modes) or going 60A3K.. I'm inclined to keep the Sammy due to its 3d ability, which i'm banking will becoming pretty big in 2 years.

The only thing thats delaying my decision is that I purchased this set through amazon and an exchange/upgrade process would leave me with no tv for about a week.
I think I will go the support/tech visit route one more time before totally giving up.
Besides the darn halo prism this model is one I would reccommend.
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post #5862 of 14523
9/11/07 at 7:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markm75 View Post

... The HL-T6187 is a 3d set.. capable of 120hz according to the tech guy that was here recently.. it makes sense as the 3d requires 60hz per eye.. He also confirmed that it is using that Wobilization 120hz emulation technology (cinemotion?) but i think this is different than the Motion Enhancement on the Sony as it is more for increasing the detail during Pans?

Wobulation, which seems to have been pioneered by HP, is fairly well characterized in the following news release:

http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/pr...4/040609a.html

HP clearly characterises it as a technique for increasing the displayable resolution without increasing the resolution of the mirror array. Others have suggested that wobulation also reduces/eliminates the screen-door effect that is visible on some digital televisions.

Can't see what any of that has to do with motion. EDIT: Except that it trades refresh rate for resolution, which, logic dictates, would generally detract from its ability to display motion.

With respect to the 3D display technology, is it not possible that the HL-T reduces the output image resolution by half, when refreshing at 120 Hz? This seems entirely possible, to me, if it, in fact, is using wobulation to double the displayed resolution at 60 Hz.
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post #5863 of 14523
9/11/07 at 7:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaine View Post

I had the light engine replaced for the second time in my HLT6189S set today and I think we finally have a keeper. I've gotta dial the picture back in again, but the light leakage and buzzing noise issues appear to be solved.

well i called my service tech today and initially he called me on Friday to tell me that he needed my set in the shop for a couple of days to replace the light tunnel which houses the LEDs and the light illumination assembly (mirror with 2 alignment screws on it). Well i felt that replacing those 2 parts was not going to be effective enough to rid my set of the halo-prism reflection, so i told him that i would be willing to wait for a whole light engine swap out instead of parts here and there. Well he was all about what made me comfortable, he said he would call Samsung today and back order it for me that way he could just swap out the whole thing at once and the set won't need to leave my stand. So i am hoping the new light engines that r coming over have been made with the halo-prism issue in mind...so u have no more halo-prism reflection? How evident was it prior to this replacement?? Keep hope alive!!!
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post #5864 of 14523
9/11/07 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharcyde23 View Post

I know some people on here are deciding whether to go Sony or HLT. I'm on my 2nd 5689s, the first one had terrible RBE and went back, this one almost no RBE but a very nice halo prism reflection. ...

Thanks, Pharcyde23. I feel like i'm walk down a path, in a really, really dark forest, with no map, and I've arrived at a fork in the path. One direction has a sign reading "Beware the diabolical GREEN-BLOB!". The other has a sign reading "Here there be Giant Purple Halo Prisms of Death!". ... LOL!
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post #5865 of 14523
9/11/07 at 8:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharcyde23 View Post

I know some people on here are deciding whether to go Sony or HLT. I'm on my 2nd 5689s, the first one had terrible RBE and went back, this one almost no RBE but a very nice halo prism reflection.
Here's pics, one taken at a slight angle, the other straight on:


I'm just asking! but how can the one have terrible RBE,and the other have almost no RBE? RBE is somethin
that a small % of people see on DLP set's, it has nothing to do with it being bad on one set and better on another, think it is something other that RBE you are seeing!
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post #5866 of 14523
9/11/07 at 8:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avio View Post

Good luck; hope you get out of your mess.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post11566035

Avio

Thanks! Unfortunately that didnt help matters =( I still have the weird "exposure" adjustments the TV seems to like doing. Its weird. If white text appears anywhere on the screen, the rest of the picture dims as if it has to borrow light from other areas haha. Pissin' me off!
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post #5867 of 14523
9/11/07 at 8:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlbowerts View Post

I'm just asking! but how can the one have terrible RBE,and the other have almost no RBE? RBE is somethin
that a small % of people see on DLP set's, it has nothing to do with it being bad on one set and better on another, think it is something other that RBE you are seeing!

i see RBE during every dark scene and a lot everywhere else, however, i am sensitive to it and not bothered by it at all....now i wish i just couldn't see my halo-prism...lol I wonder if his other set he replaced had the halo-prism as it is way worse than dealing with RBE
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post #5868 of 14523
9/11/07 at 8:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by talbain View Post

my tv actually shows 24p. i believe there were also some screen shots a few pages back by some other people with the samsung displaying 24p when the info button is pressed.

24hz or 24p.. which exact model do you have.. are you referring to the PS3? The ps3 will show 24hz.. but any other bluray player will show 60hz.
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post #5869 of 14523
9/11/07 at 8:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Techsumer View Post

Thanks for the feedback, markm75. That's useful information. Did you try the same experiment on rolling credits? That's usually where I can most easily see 3:2 pulldown jutter.

I would still like to hear about a back-to-back comparison on the HL-T, because the scene would be deliberately played back in a mode that is expected to cause jutter, allowing the tester to confirm that the jutter exists in the selected scene, when 3:2 pulldown is used. In other words, I want someone to deliberately turn the 24 fps mode off and then on, verifying that the jutter is there when it is off, and that it is not there, or is visibly reduced, when it is on. I think such would be the "acid test", for my purposes.

Ill try the credits when i can.., plus i may have the chance after friday, as I'll have one rented copy of "wild" by disney and the sears store has another.. plop the discs into each player and have at it.
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post #5870 of 14523
9/11/07 at 8:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wopino View Post

i see RBE during every dark scene and a lot everywhere else, however, i am sensitive to it and not bothered by it at all....now i wish i just couldn't see my halo-prism...lol I wonder if his other set he replaced had the halo-prism as it is way worse than dealing with RBE

My first set had absolutely no halo prism. I agree that dealing with it is worse than RBE.
To answer the guy above asking how come I dont see RBE on this set vs my first one...I dont know why. I just dont and that's good enough for me. The fact that my first one had bad RBE was confirmed and noted by a tech. Now if we can solve this halo prism issue I'll be a happy camper.
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post #5871 of 14523
9/11/07 at 9:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharcyde23 View Post

My first set had absolutely no halo prism. I agree that dealing with it is worse than RBE.
To answer the guy above asking how come I dont see RBE on this set vs my first one...I dont know why. I just dont and that's good enough for me. The fact that my first one had bad RBE was confirmed and noted by a tech. Now if we can solve this halo prism issue I'll be a happy camper.

ME TOO!!!!! Hopefully Samsung comes on here to see how bad the halo-prism really is and finds a cure!
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post #5872 of 14523
9/11/07 at 9:23pm
Purchased a HLT6189S from Leons in Toronto and it came today. Everything seemed perfect until I started to notice a purple blob/haze during certain dark scenes. After reading through these threads it would seem I have the Halo Prism issue.

It is very noticeable on the Rogers on demand channel (displaying the menu) and during a lot of blue-ray movies. I will call Samsung tomorrow but I guess it will go back unless there is hope in correcting this. I really love the picture on this.
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post #5873 of 14523
9/11/07 at 9:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesdear View Post

Purchased a HLT6189S from Leons in Toronto and it came today. Everything seemed perfect until I started to notice a purple blob/haze during certain dark scenes. After reading through these threads it would seem I have the Halo Prism issue.

It is very noticeable on the Rogers on demand channel (displaying the menu) and during a lot of blue-ray movies. I will call Samsung tomorrow but I guess it will go back unless there is hope in correcting this. I really love the picture on this.

What is 'RBE' issue? I'm not sure what RBE means.

Rainbow effect (RBE) is what it sounds like , some see rainbows on pic of DLP sets, it's nothing wrong with these sets, it's just with this tech, some can see it, some see it more than others, but most don't see it at all, I'm sure not the best way to put it , but it's getting late, so best i can do rigth now.
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post #5874 of 14523
9/11/07 at 10:10pm
I'm having issues with haloing from the brightness of the iris. I've gone into the service menu and have set the DB Aperature to close. When I exit the service menu and power back up, the iris seems to go through a start up sequence and always end up back in the open setting. I thought it might be a firmware issue, and upgraded to version 1026, but evertime I adjust the service menu the iris always goes back to open.

I've done some searching and have seen other people with the same problem I have, but can't find a resolution. Any ideas?
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post #5875 of 14523
9/11/07 at 10:46pm
OKAY, so I received my 6189s today and it is a beauty. I have gone through this forum and collected information such as recommended starter picture settings, user dve calibration, and such and I still have a few questions (I feel like a moron asking them, but oh well):

1. How do I access the detailed settings on the picture menu? My detailed settings is greyed out and I cannot see what they are, let alone change them.

2. I have gotten a copy of DVE from my library, but do I need color filters to properly go through avical's dve user-level calibration method? I don't think so, but just checking! Also, do I need to disable CCA in the SM to perform the user-level cal?

3. Could someone please summarize the buttons used for navingating the SM? I entered the SM, and ended up pushing the left navigation button twice in a row, which executed a factory reset.. all settings were reset, and upon powerup, the TV went through its "plug & play" setup wizard.. I hope I didn't screw anything up..

4. Finally, again regarding user-level dve calibration, is it okay to use a standard dvd player hooked with composite video to the 6189s? (waiting on my monoprice cables to arrive, then will use component video)..

Please help I'm desperately trying to figure all this out now past midnight and just want to get the best picture possible!

Thanks y'all.
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post #5876 of 14523
9/12/07 at 6:53am
Does anyone know what Service menu has the Iris and gamma adjustments? Has anyone tweaked these and found that they improve things (what does it improve)?

Cheers
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post #5877 of 14523
9/12/07 at 7:01am
The Halo prism issue. Is this will all sets or is this with a certain percentage. Please chime in if you have a set without the halo prism issue. Thanks
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post #5878 of 14523
9/12/07 at 7:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrbigvolume View Post

The Halo prism issue. Is this will all sets or is this with a certain percentage. Please chime in if you have a set without the halo prism issue. Thanks

Mine does not have that problem but it has others. Sets with NO problems are the holy grail =P
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post #5879 of 14523
9/12/07 at 7:10am
Well I get mine Monday and I am praying I don't have prism. Do you guys suggest when we unpack it, to immediately go to a black screen (maybe credits) to see if I have it. If I do, should I deny delivery? If I have to deny delivery I might just cry...I really want my TV!
-*throws tantrum*
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post #5880 of 14523
9/12/07 at 7:22am
Funny that you guys should mention these noise issues with the Samsung DLP's. I bought my first BluRay movie for my PS3 and in dark scenes, I see nothing but noise all over the place. I was pretty disappointed because I assumed even being projection that this noise would be gone. Now i'm debating if these is correctable at all? Or if I need to just exchange it and go with a smaller LCD? Wondering if that will correct the issue? My needs were never for a big tv, but for the money it made it seem worth it.

What settings do you guys suggest on the PS3 and TV? HL-T5687S, PS3 connected with HDMI Precision 800 HDMI cables.

Is there any possibilities to remove the noise or is this just "The way it is"..?
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