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Fixing the Oversaturation Problem in the JVC-RS1 - Page 6

post #151 of 303
Just got my RS1 running today. Blown away by how much sharper the Bluray movies are than my AE900U. However, when I put on American Idol to watch it with my wife tonight, she walks into the room, takes ONE look at the screen, and said "What's wrong with the colors?" This is really bumming me out! Going to gamma setting C seemed to help a lot - Ryan C. didn't look like a lopster anymore. I had used Get Gray and AVIA to set brightness, contrast, color and sharpness. Everything was virtually dead on from the factory. Don't know why the colors are off when watching material. I will try to find time to get out the Spyder and check grey scale soon.

Rick
post #152 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post

Just got my RS1 running today. Blown away by how much sharper the Bluray movies are than my AE900U. However, when I put on American Idol to watch it with my wife tonight, she walks into the room, takes ONE look at the screen, and said "What's wrong with the colors?" This is really bumming me out! Going to gamma setting C seemed to help a lot - Ryan C. didn't look like a lopster anymore. I had used Get Gray and AVIA to set brightness, contrast, color and sharpness. Everything was virtually dead on from the factory. Don't know why the colors are off when watching material. I will try to find time to get out the Spyder and check grey scale soon.

Rick

Are you connected via HDMI? AI is not something I watch, but I did switch over to take a look; the colors looks just fine. (The program is quite over the top, though.)
post #153 of 303
I'd still like to know how much of this problem is personal perception and taste vs. PJ to PJ variation. I'm sure it's a combination of both, but the question is to what degree. My guess is it's probably 50/50.

My wife had the exact same reaction rdalcanto 's wife did when she saw our RS1. While I can spot inaccurate colors a mile away, my wife on the other hand is an entirely different senerio... which makes her reaction to the colors very significant to me. I just can't believe all these PJs look similar given the number of fanboys running rampant prasing this PJ. I would think guys that are spending this kind of money on a display do so because they want a highly accurate picture (and likewise know what that should look like), but is that the case? I really wonder. If this is true, I just can't believe so many of the fanboy's are seeing what I'm seeing since my very undiscriminating wife noticed the problem from the first moment she saw it.
post #154 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wet1 View Post

If this is true, I just can't believe so many of the fanboy's are seeing what I'm seeing since my very undiscriminating wife noticed the problem from the first moment she saw it.

My thoughts exactly. I read every review I could get my hands on before this projector arrived. The professional reviews made it sound like this projector is as close to perfection as you can get for under 10K. For my wife, who probably doesn't really care, to say "what is wrong with the color" after looking at it for no more than 10 seconds, says a lot. And again, I had just made sure it was perfect with calibration discs. When I watch American Idol, it is in high def via component, just like it was on my AE900U. When I watched Flyboys using my PS3, it was HDMI. The sharpness of Flyboys had me grinning like never before, but again the colors seemed a little off.
post #155 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post

Just got my RS1 running today. Blown away by how much sharper the Bluray movies are than my AE900U. However, when I put on American Idol to watch it with my wife tonight, she walks into the room, takes ONE look at the screen, and said "What's wrong with the colors?"
Rick

Mine did basically the same thing, except she laughed and asked why the colors were so suped up.
post #156 of 303
I finally got to see what everyone here is talking about, although it wasn't an RS1, but DreamVision's DreamBee version. If I understand correctly, it is the same as the RS1? Anyway, I cannot imagine how anyone can be happy with this projector. I'm just glad they didn't show Charlie & the Chocolate Factory or my eyes might not have recovered from color overload. The greens were plain simply UNBEARABLE and POTO and some deep sea program looked like the oversaturated wallpapers from the Webshots site. I don't know what you guys praising the RS1 are smoking, but if the RS1 is like the DreamBee, then I predict there will soon be significant price drops in the used projector market. At this point, I think that RS1 stands for Ridiculously Saturated 1 (an alternative name could have been LSD1).
post #157 of 303
my rs1 is still boxed, so i've not seen what everyone is posting about.
i'm not clear on some things, is the oversaturation not helped by adjusting the color in the video processor( for those that have one). also, it seems post are refering to tv shows, is this a problem with hd dvd and bluray or just cable. lastly, how over saturated? i know all are not the same. what is the range from the convention, 10% - 20%? are any close to the standards? why didn't widescreen review make a big deal of this? i presently am using a ruby and before that had a sim2 300e, will i even notice oversaturation?
post #158 of 303
All I can say is, that nothing I was shown really looked natural. Everything from tv shows to HD was just too candy-colored. In a few scenes it was less obvious, but in most scenes the flesh tones looked artificial, you could see the lips stand out, and those greens... HIDEOUS. I just could not enjoy the image. It was bright and blacks looked great, the projector was extremely quiet. The potential of this projector must be phenomenal, but the color saturation just ruined the entire experience. I have a lowly NEC HT1000, but frankly, if I was offered a free exchange for the RS1, I would not take it. Maybe it's just my perception or my eyes, but I couldn't stand watching this projector for long. It's that bad IMHO.
post #159 of 303
And I really, really wanted to like it, because I already told my wife that we will soon get the non-plus-ultra projector. I just wanted to see it first and then get in line to buy one. But I think I'll stick to my NEC with panamorph just a little bit longer until maybe JVC come to their senses or Sony beats them to the punch. To me, the RS1 is a non-starter, a complete failure and insult to discriminating eyes. Not being able to adjust the saturation of a PJ is fine if the saturation is fine, but forcing the customer to accept an image that takes you on an acid trip should be illegal.

And yes, maybe some people don't notice the saturation problem. We all have individual eyes and color perception, but if you ever walk into CC or BB or any other place that shows you plasmas and you think they look great, then maybe the RS1 is for you...
post #160 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by armadillo View Post

I have a lowly NEC HT1000, but frankly, if I was offered a free exchange for the RS1, I would not take it. Maybe it's just my perception or my eyes, but I couldn't stand watching this projector for long. It's that bad IMHO.

that's clearly an exaggeration...

I don't care how bad the color saturation is -- anyone with a brain would take the RS-1 and spend some bucks on a VP that can correct the issue (and do many other great things making the RS-1 as close to perfect when it comes to digital PJs).

The only complaint I have is that you need an external VP to correct these issues but getting a RS-1 for free would really solve my issues!
post #161 of 303
Quote:


To me, the RS1 is a non-starter, a complete failure and insult to discriminating eyes.

I haven't seen the Dreambee version, but I've seen numerous RS-1s and with that reaction, I would have to say that something was very wrong with the unit you saw. Look at Greg Rogers' or any of the other reviews by those with very discriminating eyes to back that up.
post #162 of 303
Haha, Forceflow. hadn't thought of that. Yes, a VP would do it. So anyone who wants to exchange my NEC with an RS1, feel free to PM me
post #163 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by armadillo View Post

Haha, Forceflow. hadn't thought of that. Yes, a VP would do it. So anyone who wants to exchange my NEC with an RS1, feel free to PM me



I guess there are no takers.

I'll outbid you Price is Right Style -- 1 dollar!
post #164 of 303
Alright, stop it already. No more PMs please. To all those who kindly offered their RS1s and expected me to cover shipping, forget it
post #165 of 303
From the JVC DLA-RS1 Owner's Thread:

I Hear the Colors are Over-saturated. Can This Be Completely Corrected Using The Internal Adjustments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

There is no way to correct for the wider than rec. 709 color gamut for the JVC with the internal adjustments. All that the internal color control does is to change the lightness of the color so that colors are less vivid. The bias controls are used to adjust the relative balance of R,G and B to achieve the desired white point (D65 for example). Imho, though the oversaturation issue is being blown out of proportion. The degree of oversaturation on the JVC isn't that much compared to most other display devices being sold today that also don't have CMS, it's certainly no worse than the Ruby or Pearl for example. I think part of the problem may be that the default color setting for analog inputs is too high on the JVC and people haven't adjusted them down and they are confusing this easily correctable problem with oversaturated primaries. These are two different issues.

Are all these recent complaints coming from OOTB units or callibrated ones?
post #166 of 303
In my case, the Dreamvision was kept at OOTB settings (which most people say are excellent). The first thing I asked for was to reduce the saturation (via color control) and exactly as stated above, the image became less vivid, but colors were still unbalanced. Everything looked washed out and faded. Of course, there is always the possibility that this was a bad unit, but I can't get an RS1 locally, so I was happy to see the next best thing live. I need to order this over the net and I simply don't want to risk having a projector shipped that literally blows my mind just colorwise. Obviously, there are some people who see the same things I did, although they don't put it into as harsh words as I do. As much as I wanted this PJ, as disappointed I left the showroom. Everything else seems great about it, but the colors are just out of whack with no means to fix other than VP. Interestingly, my two other concerns, low brightness and brighter corners, were not an issue at all. The Dreambee was very bright and punchy and I simply could not spot the bright corners (and I tried hard to see them). This unit also was virtually silent (I really had to move within a few inches to hear it). So this really would have been a winner if it had better color control.
post #167 of 303
I wonder if one of the inputs with the color bug (RGB IIRC) was being used.
post #168 of 303
Thread Starter 
These post have gone so far over the top that i just can't believe it. If one dials the RS-1 color down to about -10 to -15 and sets the gamma to "C".....the RS-1 is not only tolerable....it is very very good.

If that's not good enough....add a Crystalio and dial the saturation down a bit....and you get closer to superb.

If that's not good enough.....get an ISF calibration done....and you're at STELLAR.

If that's not good enough......you better go spend a lot more than 10k on a projector.

I'm VERY OBSESSIVE....and based on my experience with the RS-1 with the above adjustments....I ordered a second RS-1 for my downstairs system.

Harry
post #169 of 303
Thanks Harry. I don't have my unit yet, but all of a sudden attitude changed so much I knew either several RS1's are completely off or people all of a sudden expect that OOTB should be "almost perfect" for every unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by armadillo View Post

In my case, the Dreamvision was kept at OOTB settings (which most people say are excellent).

From what I gather D65 is almost perfect OOTB, not the color.
post #170 of 303
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ettepet View Post

Thanks Harry. I don't have my unit yet, but all of a sudden attitude changed so much I knew either several RS1's are completely off or people all of a sudden expect that OOTB should be "almost perfect" for every unit.


From what I gather D65 is almost perfect OOTB, not the color.

Yes...interestingly D65 is nearly spot on.....and in my case, the projector settings for brightness and contrast were nearly perfect OOTB also.

And yes....the colors look juiced out of the box. I think many people are comparing the pushed colors to their prior projectors which had been more fully adjusted. In my case, I had a Marantz VP12s2 with a green that was very slightly off even after ISF calibration and processing with an Immersive Simmetry, but I got used to it.

I think the RS-1 plus an external processor (and perhaps an ISF calibration) is an amazing bargain for the obsessive videophile who wants a bright, accurate, viewing experience for under 10k.

Interestingly, after I spent hours working out the color saturation issue with gamma adjustment, color adjustment in the projector, and saturation adjustment in the Crystalio....my wife said, "What's up? The picture's looking a little 'muted'" Go figure.
post #171 of 303
Harry: I will go back and ask them to adjust the settings as you say and see if that makes a difference.

Ettepet: There is no sudden change of attitude, at least from my side. I really would like to love this PJ and I actually just walked in to see it and was fully prepared pull the trigger on a purchase. But the picture is what it is and if I find the image offensive, as I do, that's what it is for my personal decision. I can only suggest to folks to first check it out in person before buying.
post #172 of 303
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by armadillo View Post

Harry: I will go back and ask them to adjust the settings as you say and see if that makes a difference.

Ettepet: There is no sudden change of attitude, at least from my side. I really would like to love this PJ and I actually just walked in to see it and was fully prepared pull the trigger on a purchase. But the picture is what it is and if I find the image offensive, as I do, that's what it is for my personal decision. I can only suggest to folks to first check it out in person before buying.

Armadillo: I think you will find it quite tolerable with some minor adjustments.......but perhaps not perfect without an external processor and some further adjustment. I'm surprised you didn't ask them to dial the color down a bit. Also, If i were to judge projectors OOTB with no adjustment, It's unlikely I'd EVER buy one.
post #173 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brandt View Post

Also, If i were to judge projectors OOTB with no adjustment, It's unlikely I'd EVER buy one.

Good point.

Harry,

Without a VP do you feel that the RS-1 is accurate in its colors or do you feel that the adjustments compromised the picture in others areas that are acceptable to you?
post #174 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by armadillo View Post

Ettepet: There is no sudden change of attitude, at least from my side. I really would like to love this PJ and I actually just walked in to see it and was fully prepared pull the trigger on a purchase. But the picture is what it is and if I find the image offensive, as I do, that's what it is for my personal decision. I can only suggest to folks to first check it out in person before buying.

There have been a truck load of people complaining about and critisizing the RS1 the past few weeks (mainly noise & saturation issues). Also I stumbled on some older comparison by Wet1 (here).

I think it is great to hear all sides, but because viewing condition often stay unclear, and units and personal preferences differ it is kinda hard to see what's true. For me at least until I get my own unit.

There was a whole discussion about the new Samsung BR-player having LFE problems until it became clear that its BM (=Bass Management) sucked and needed to be switched off.

People complained about noise, did most of them have way too much fL? If they played their movies on the XA2, why didn't they use its superb noise filter? (is the result too crappy??)

Maybe it would be a good idea with all the uncovered shortcomings of the RS1 to get some picture comparisons done with a calibrated RS1 and one of these 'great alternatives' people mention. Also with overly-saturated sources (HDTV/etc), and what improvements Gamma C and Color-adjustments can give here.

And if the saturation really stays that bad I'd like to know if only a Crystallio II can truly correct saturation. Could one of the new super powerful graphic cards do it. It seems such a waste to have to spend $5K+ just to correct this issue. A powerful graphics card can be used for other means as well..
post #175 of 303
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceflow View Post

Good point.

Harry,

Without a VP do you feel that the RS-1 is accurate in its colors or do you feel that the adjustments compromised the picture in others areas that are acceptable to you?

Well, it goes like this. I noted the oversaturation of color when I fired up the projector. My initial assessment was that the projector was incredibly bright with excellent contrast...and that the resolution was absolutely stellar. I'm quite obsessive, as i mentioned earlier. When I dialed down the color in the projector and placed the gamma on "C", the colors looked a bit better, but not perfect. I then ordered the Crystalio...and with adjustment to saturation...I think i'm at about 90%. I'm happy and could live with the projector at this point. However, I have Chuck Williams scheduled to come calibrate the projector in late April. Knowing Chuck, I am optimistic that at the end of that calibration....I will be in projector heaven. But we will see.

For what it's worth, I think many would love this projector (with the gamma on "C" and color dialed down a bit) WITHOUT a VP or ISF calibration. It's a great value, great projector...and for those of us who can't sleep if the color is even slightly off....I recommend a VP and expert calibration.

I'll report more after the end of the month.
post #176 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brandt View Post

I'm surprised you didn't ask them to dial the color down a bit. Also, If i were to judge projectors OOTB with no adjustment, It's unlikely I'd EVER buy one.

But I did. It was the first thing I asked them to do. I also stated that reducing color did not fix the problem other than making the whole image look more faded. The color control will not adequately reduce the saturation. The unit I saw had incredibly annoying greens (particularly offensive in Casino Royal). Now, I did not have them change gamma. So I will see if your advice with the combo of color/gamma C makes it tolerable.
post #177 of 303
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by armadillo View Post

But I did. It was the first thing I asked them to do. I also stated that reducing color did not fix the problem other than making the whole image look more faded. The color control will not adequately reduce the saturation. The unit I saw had incredibly annoying greens (particularly offensive in Casino Royal). Now, I did not have them change gamma. So I will see if your advice with the combo of color/gamma C makes it tolerable.

Sorry about that. I agree that dialing the color too far down does dull the image. I'd go with -10 or so. Also play with the gamma. You seem pretty discriminating and will probably need an external processor to get it tolerable.
post #178 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brandt View Post

Sorry about that. I agree that dialing the color too far down does dull the image. I'd go with -10 or so. Also play with the gamma. You seem pretty discriminating and will probably need an external processor to get it tolerable.

If colors can be accurate on a $1000 projector, why can't they be accurate on a $6K projector? I can understand needing an external processor to stretch the image, but for acceptable color.... ?!?
post #179 of 303
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post

If colors can be accurate on a $1000 projector, why can't they be accurate on a $6K projector? I can understand needing an external processor to stretch the image, but for acceptable color.... ?!?

I hope you find a perfect projector for 6K. I had to pay 5k for a RS1 plus 3 and change for a Crystalio II for near perfection. And I'm very happy.
post #180 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post

If colors can be accurate on a $1000 projector, why can't they be accurate on a $6K projector? I can understand needing an external processor to stretch the image, but for acceptable color.... ?!?

I agree with the first statement. Even the stretching should not require a VP, since the capability is within the chip. It's just a matter of software. JVC is deliberately crippling the projector. This is a business issue, not a technical or hardware limitation. I can live without the stretching, but saturation needs to be reasonable OOTB or adjustable. No ifs and buts.
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