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Fixing the Oversaturation Problem in the JVC-RS1 - Page 8

post #211 of 303
"That doesn't make any sense. You decrease (color)intensity by lowering "color" and changing gamma to "C" will then increase the intensity of the image."

Gamma changes IRE, not color level.
post #212 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brandt View Post

I can only tell you what i'm observing at this point...and we'll see what happens after ISF calibration on April 28th......but on gamma c...with the color reduced to about -10...i'm seeing more normal flesh tones.

I'll take another look at "normal" gamma tonight....but from recollection it did not appear realistic.

Sounds like you are using component inputs. With HDMI, Gamma normal, and factory color settings, the image is virtually perfect.
post #213 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"That doesn't make any sense. You decrease (color)intensity by lowering "color" and changing gamma to "C" will then increase the intensity of the image."

Gamma changes IRE, not color level.

Doesn't gamma change the luminance of the image, so that can have an effect on the color too? Won't it will make it look more or less saturated?

Gary
post #214 of 303
It could, but it's not supposed to.
post #215 of 303
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post

Sounds like you are using component inputs. With HDMI, Gamma normal, and factory color settings, the image is virtually perfect.

Nope.....i'm using hdmi.....and my guess is that your idea of a "virtually perfect" image is different from mine and many others who are troubled by oversaturation of the primaries.
post #216 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brandt View Post

Nope.....i'm using hdmi.....and my guess is that your idea of a "virtually perfect" image is different from mine and many others who are troubled by oversaturation of the primaries.

Has anybody done a direct comparison of the RS1 with other projectors with regards to the saturation issue?
post #217 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brandt View Post

Nope.....i'm using hdmi.....and my guess is that your idea of a "virtually perfect" image is different from mine and many others who are troubled by oversaturation of the primaries.

I am as well and we agree. Maybe the oversaturation issue varies from projector to projector? I can reduce the color to help but then the picture looks washed out. That's what I am doing now to reduce the saturation. I think I will call Lumagen tomorrow and discuss the Radiance with them.
post #218 of 303
i use the dvdo vp30 scaler. i'm looking at using it to try to tone down color saturation in the rs1.
does adjusting saturation in the vp truly, only effects saturation? can anyone say if the vp 30 saturation control is effective for this?
post #219 of 303
I use the VP50 DVDO scaler and yes, it's Saturation control does lower the primaries in the RS1. There is no individual RGB saturation control in the VP30 but you can make the CIE chart (CF's) look much better, especially taming Green.

Did the VP30 have a firmware upgrade so you can output 1080p/60 to your RS1 ?
post #220 of 303
I spoke with a tech at Lumagen. He says they are selling a lot of HDQs for use with the RS1. I was told that although you can not get it 100% that the HDQ will get you to the 75% SMPTE bars for reduction of saturation in red and green. Tech said that would be pretty close and make almost everyone happy. So although there is a lot of denial going on about the saturation issue, sales are way up for the HDQ specifically because of the RS1! Retail on that is 1999.00 I believe. Of course it has DVI and not HDMI but will work with the proper cable. Input resolution for DVI is limited to 1080i and 720p. The Radiance is going to start shipping in the next month or so, for beta testing. Production will not begin until June at the soonest or perhaps as late as Aug. I also asked about other models in the Radience series as the website mentions that. I was told that any other models are way out and the only thing that's going to be bulit in the near term is the top of the line XD model that retails for 3995.00
post #221 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyR View Post

I use the VP50 DVDO scaler and yes, it's Saturation control does lower the primaries in the RS1. There is no individual RGB saturation control in the VP30 but you can make the CIE chart (CF's) look much better, especially taming Green.

Did the VP30 have a firmware upgrade so you can output 1080p/60 to your RS1 ?

i have not upgraded my vp30 at all, so i'm not familiar. i am outputting 1080i to let the pj do that work. i am able to select 1080p, so maybe mine came with that firmware. do you think outputting 1080p/60 is a better way?
post #222 of 303
"think outputting 1080p/60 is a better way?"
..............
You bet and you should be able to see the difference. 1080p gives you native 1:1 pixel maping and pretty much bypasses the RS1's internal scaler. Much sharper, cleaner image than 1080i into the RS1.
post #223 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyR View Post

..............
You bet and you should be able to see the difference. 1080p gives you native 1:1 pixel maping and pretty much bypasses the RS1's internal scaler. Much sharper, cleaner image than 1080i into the RS1.

Doesn't that contradict what Mark Petersen said earlier? I though he stated that he could not see the difference between 1080i and 1080p into the RS1 from a VP50. I may be confused. It wouldn't be the first time!
post #224 of 303
Guess I didn't see Mark's comment about his RS1 .
I do see a difference between 1080i and "p".
You have a good scaler and it's main benifit to you is it can map 1:1 if it has the timings for 1080p for your RS1, I would sure use it. I'll bet Mark does.
post #225 of 303
Jimmy,

thats a misunderstanding. HDMI 1080, whether 60i, 60P, or 24P, is mapped pixel perfect by the RS1. This has been reported by GR and others, and I have seen the same concerning 1080i on the RS1 from my Accupel signal generator. No apparent scaling is done by the RS1 when it receives 1080 of any flavor.

When the RS1 receives 1080i, it does do deinterlacing, though. If the source is BR or HDDVD, the deinterlacing of film based sources is easy to do perfectly. That's because the video is encoded at 1080 24P on the disks and is interlaced by the players prior to output. The interlace flagging should be perfect because there is no editing going on and thus the deinterlacing in the RS1 should be able to recreate the original progressive signal without error. It is a simple matter of reading the flags to reassemble the original progressive frames. Many have reported that the RS1 does perform as expected and if so I would be at a loss to explain any difference between 1080i 60 and 1080P 60.

I have a VP50 coming for evaluation in about a week so I will be able to check this for myself at that time. What I am most interested in seeing is its performance with a 1080P 24 hz signal to eliminate 3:2 judder, and to see if the VP50 can do a noticably better job scaling 480i.

For whatever reason, the 480i scaling on the RS1 creates high EE and ringing on test patterns and is one of the poorer performers I have seen in this test. Though the RS1 does a state of the art job of deinterlacing 480i, its 480 scaling appears inferior to many older DVD players who are equiped with less powerful processing chips. I am still trying to tell if the problem is big enough to be visible in actual video though.

For the time being I am using a Toshiba HDA1 to do the upconversion of DVDs to 1080i because on test patterns it shows less EE and no ringing.

Glenn

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyR View Post

"think outputting 1080p/60 is a better way?"
..............
You bet and you should be able to see the difference. 1080p gives you native 1:1 pixel maping and pretty much bypasses the RS1's internal scaler. Much sharper, cleaner image than 1080i into the RS1.
post #226 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by glenned View Post

Jimmy,

thats a misunderstanding. HDMI 1080, whether 60i, 60P, or 24P, is mapped pixel perfect by the RS1. This has been reported by GR and others, and I have seen the same concerning 1080i on the RS1 from my Accupel signal generator. No apparent scaling is done by the RS1 when it receives 1080 of any flavor.

When the RS1 receives 1080i, it does do deinterlacing, though. If the source is BR or HDDVD, the deinterlacing of film based sources is easy to do perfectly. That's because the video is encoded at 1080 24P on the disks and is interlaced by the players prior to output. The interlace flagging should be perfect because there is no editing going on and thus the deinterlacing in the RS1 should be able to recreate the original progressive signal without error. It is a simple matter of reading the flags to reassemble the original progressive frames. Many have reported that the RS1 does perform as expected and if so I would be at a loss to explain any difference between 1080i 60 and 1080P 60.

I have a VP50 coming for evaluation in about a week so I will be able to check this for myself at that time. What I am most interested in seeing is its performance with a 1080P 24 hz signal to eliminate 3:2 judder, and to see if the VP50 can do a noticably better job scaling 480i.

For whatever reason, the 480i scaling on the RS1 creates high EE and ringing on test patterns and is one of the poorer performers I have seen in this test. Though the RS1 does a state of the art job of deinterlacing 480i, its 480 scaling appears inferior to many older DVD players who are equiped with less powerful processing chips. I am still trying to tell if the problem is big enough to be visible in actual video though.

For the time being I am using a Toshiba HDA1 to do the upconversion of DVDs to 1080i because on test patterns it shows less EE and no ringing.

Glenn

Glenn-

When a 1080i60 signal is sent to the RS1 via HD-DVD or Blu-ray, the RS1 will obviously de-interlace it, but how is it then displayed? I.e., is it the equivalent of 1080p60, or 1080p/24?

Hope this makes sense.
post #227 of 303
Jimmy,

thats a misunderstanding. HDMI 1080, whether 60i, 60P, or 24P, is mapped pixel perfect by the RS1. This has been reported by GR and others, and I have seen the same concerning 1080i on the RS1 from my Accupel signal generator. No apparent scaling is done by the RS1 when it receives 1080 of any flavor.
.........................

Hi Glenn, long time.
Wait till you get the VP50 and try it at 1080p. I think you may see a difference from the RS1 doing the work at 1080i. Be sure you check the VP50's mapping pattern when playing with those different timings.
I don't think your going to be happy with the DVDO's 1080p at 24 unless there was a recent firmware upgrade from 1.03, now it's missing frames. The version before only the bottom of image was tearing. 480i into the DVDO your going to love what comes out at 1080p .
post #228 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Input resolution for DVI is limited to 1080i and 720p.


That's not entirely accurate, the entire Vision HD line is capable of accepting a 1080p24 input (some of the models may require the relevant firmware upgrade).
post #229 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Glenn-

When a 1080i60 signal is sent to the RS1 via HD-DVD or Blu-ray, the RS1 will obviously de-interlace it, but how is it then displayed? I.e., is it the equivalent of 1080p60, or 1080p/24?

Hope this makes sense.

I would guess it would be 1080P60. Have you tried sending both? Can you see a difference?
post #230 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenjabil View Post

That's not entirely accurate, the entire Vision HD line is capable of accepting a 1080p24 input (some of the models may require the relevant firmware upgrade).

Not through the DVI input though according to the website. Is this for component video maybe? So the statement is entirely accurate unless the website is not. http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=hdq_details
post #231 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Morton View Post

I would guess it would be 1080P60. Have you tried sending both? Can you see a difference?

I'm with you on your guess Randall. And part of the reason for that is that I do believe that I see a difference between my HD-DVD player sending 1080i/60 and my Pioneer Elite BD player sending 1080p/24. The latter is smoother and more solid.
post #232 of 303
I just put up a bunch of black velvet. The RS-1 seems more saturated now. Is that a known effect of reducing reflected light?
post #233 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Not through the DVI input though according to the website. Is this for component video maybe? So the statement is entirely accurate unless the website is not. http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=hdq_details

Afraid not...a firmware update for 1080p 24 input capability was added on Feb 20, and a further update to correct for stuttering on 1080p 24 input was added on March 1.

Lumagen releases updates every few weeks, and can't/doesn't update its main product pages for every single feature added to and/or improved upon.

Take a look at Lumagen's update page for the entire Vision HD series:

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...updates_latest

The best part about the frequent updates is that even if you've missed a few, the latest update always contains the fixes for ALL updates ever released for the model in question.
post #234 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post

I just put up a bunch of black velvet. The RS-1 seems more saturated now. Is that a known effect of reducing reflected light?

Makes sense to me.

If you were getting a lot of reflected light back onto the screen, you would have been getting somewhat of a washed out effect which would reduce the apparent saturation of the colors.
post #235 of 303
It is displayed at 1080P60. The RS1 can not reclock the signal rate. However, it will accept a signal at 24 Hz and display it as an even multiple of 24 hz.

The conversion from 60 hz to 24 hz would have to be done by a VP. If a BD or HDDVD player outputs 24 hz, just like as with a VP, the RS1 can display it at an even multiple of 24, and thus no 3:2 pulldown judder.

Glenn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Glenn-

When a 1080i60 signal is sent to the RS1 via HD-DVD or Blu-ray, the RS1 will obviously de-interlace it, but how is it then displayed? I.e., is it the equivalent of 1080p60, or 1080p/24?

Hope this makes sense.
post #236 of 303
Hi Jimmy,

Thanks for the info. I'll let you know what I think. I saw that you were selling your old "light cannon". Very nostalgic.


Glenn
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyR View Post

Jimmy,

thats a misunderstanding. HDMI 1080, whether 60i, 60P, or 24P, is mapped pixel perfect by the RS1. This has been reported by GR and others, and I have seen the same concerning 1080i on the RS1 from my Accupel signal generator. No apparent scaling is done by the RS1 when it receives 1080 of any flavor.
.........................

Hi Glenn, long time.
Wait till you get the VP50 and try it at 1080p. I think you may see a difference from the RS1 doing the work at 1080i. Be sure you check the VP50's mapping pattern when playing with those different timings.
I don't think your going to be happy with the DVDO's 1080p at 24 unless there was a recent firmware upgrade from 1.03, now it's missing frames. The version before only the bottom of image was tearing. 480i into the DVDO your going to love what comes out at 1080p .
post #237 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

I'm with you on your guess Randall. And part of the reason for that is that I do believe that I see a difference between my HD-DVD player sending 1080i/60 and my Pioneer Elite BD player sending 1080p/24. The latter is smoother and more solid.


Rob,
How much difference can you see when outputting 1080P/60 from the Pioneer vs 1080P/24 from the Pioneer?
Is it subtle or obvious?
post #238 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wet1 View Post

I have to agree with BD, it's an issue IMO. I know I've been blasted for negatively critiquing the oversaturation of the God-like RS1, but I think enough people have commented on this issue now that it should be obvious there's something more to it than "no sun-burnt faces, neon grass, of glowing taxis on mine my heaven sent JVC...". As can be seen on the graphs, it's there and if you are accustomed to see correct colors, you'll easily notice the incorrect oversaturation on this PJ.


I have not noticed oversaturation in the RS1 and I have not read a review which which thinks this is a huge problem. Most of the professional reviews think that color rendition is a strong point but according to Greg Rogers their is a problem if the source outputs are not set up in a certain way. Here is his recommendations from another forum. not following these will lead to oversaturation

I'm not sure where to put this because there are so many RS-1 threads. But here are a couple of tips for setting up your system when the RS-1's start to be delivered.

#1 When sending HD digital signals (720p, 1080i, 1080p) to the RS-1, i.e. using its HDMI inputs, use digital YCbCr signals and not digital RGB signals (i.e. from a DVI output) to avoid color matrix conversion errors (mixed Rec 601/Rec 709 matrices).

#2 When sending SD analog signals (480i/p, 576i/p) to the RS-1, use YPbPr signals and not RGB signals to avoid color matrix conversion errors (mixed Rec 709/Rec 601 matrices).

#3 Be sure to adjust the Color control with test patterns when using analog YPbPr signals to avoid over saturation.

I've informed JVC of these issues and they are working to correct them.

__________________
Greg Rogers
AccuPel
Widescreen Review
Last edited by gregr : 03-01-07 at 03:22 PM.
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post #239 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by glenned View Post

It is displayed at 1080P60. The RS1 can not reclock the signal rate. However, it will accept a signal at 24 Hz and display it as an even multiple of 24 hz.

The conversion from 60 hz to 24 hz would have to be done by a VP. If a BD or HDDVD player outputs 24 hz, just like as with a VP, the RS1 can display it at an even multiple of 24, and thus no 3:2 pulldown judder.

Glenn

That's what I thought, but I appreciate the confirmation Glenn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Morton View Post

Rob,
How much difference can you see when outputting 1080P/60 from the Pioneer vs 1080P/24 from the Pioneer?
Is it subtle or obvious?

It depends on your definition of "subtle" and "obvious"!

Seriously, I would have to say that the difference is somewhat subtle, but the more you watch it, and then go to watching it at 60hz, you tend to appreciate it more.

It should be understood that this will not get rid of the inherent motion stutter in the film. Any relatively fast movement is going to be blurred to a degree, as this is simply unavoidable at a shutter speed of 1/24 second.

But slow, steady movement is definitely improved. This is most noticeable with things like a slow pan of the camera.
post #240 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brandt View Post

DIYGuy: Thanks so much for that incredible diagram. I finally understand what we are talking about here!!!!!

Here is a Java applet that lets you play with the color controls!
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