Fixing the Oversaturation Problem in the JVC-RS1 - Page 9

Yes please let me know, also check out the crosshatch from the VP50 when you set it to input 1080p . Compare it to either of the RS1's generated crosshatch patterns.

"Nostalgic" it is, but that's Jhouse's famous 20HD/PLV-70, not mine.
Wouldn't hurt to say hi to Joe, he has been disinchanted with the forum lately and refuses to post. I think he's suffering AH newbe funk.. .

Subtle is: You leave the room and someone switches the 1080P/24 to 1080P/60 and when you come back, you may or may not notice. Obvious is when you know most every time.

Well, like I said, it is certainly closer to "subtle" than "obvious", but the more you watch 1080p/24 and get used to, the more you notice it when it is not being used.

Hey Rob, you get satisfaction on your new toy yet?

I hope the PS3 gets that 1080/24 soon. Right now both of my devices, A2 and PS3 dont do 1080p24 and the AVM50, like most other VPs, cant seem to get it right yet.

I will have a definite yes or no answer to this question by tomorrow evening. But as it stands at this moment, the answer would be no. But thanks to you, I know it will work out either way!

Well, I read most of this thread in addition to all the other threads and reviews that rave about the JVC RS1. I was pretty close to just buying one but now I'm quite concerned about the saturation issue. I guess my question is, how significant is the problem? Is it something that you can greatly improve by adjusting the setting or will it never be right regardless of the calibration? If I don't get the RS1 I'm gonna get the Epson Pro 1080 but the only reason would be for better color accuracy because apparently the RS1 has a real issue with that...

One of the threads polled owners and IIRC 84% didn't think it was an issue.

Link? I don't recall seeing a poll thread just for RS1 color saturation. It might not be an 'issue' for everyone, but it should be obvious to all but the most color blind...

Wet1: You have been especially vocal about your dislike of the RS1's color saturation, but you are clearly in the distinct minority.

With unadjusted component, I'd agree with you, but there's a trivial and well-publicized fix for that (color setting to -20, I believe).

Through HDMI, it looks perfectly accurate to me. And I'd like to consider myself not color-blind, thankyouverymuch.

Sorry, I didn't intend to offend the 'majority'... I was just stating that the issue is obvious, but not necessarily a major problem for all. What's 'clear' is the colors are over saturated given the number of people that have noticed it, the measurements and graphs prove it. I didn't say everyone would disapprove of it, I just stated that it's there... PERIOD. Anyone considering this PJ should spend a good amount of time with it and view a lot of different material and decide for themselves.

It may look accurate to you, but it is not. I believe a lot of the gross oversaturation is when the source is also oversaturated. This puts the double whammy on the picture and sometimes gets to the point where it is almost unwatchable.

I was watching a bit of a tennis match today on HD1 and the colors looked perfect with everything at default. I have a video processor and have three profiles set up to reduce the saturation if needed for different source material.

I agree that even without a video processor that with a little tweaking of the projector controls everything looks almost OK. I wouldn't trade mine for any other projector anywhere near what I paid for the RS1. Six months from now I could change my mind.

Oversaturation? nope.

I just compared a unit to my Plasma. not even close to as "over saturated" as the plasma.

Maybe some of us have never seen an accurate image?

Well, comon guys, all the measurements say the colors are oversaturated. Cine4home, greg rogers, etc. JVC stated they put the gamut where it is. How offended you are by it is another thing (most don't find it very offending, save Wet1), but lets not try and spin what's clearly reality.

"Link? I don't recall seeing a poll thread just for RS1 color saturation."

You can look for it yorself, but it was surprisingly short-lived. I think the title was something to the effect of "How happy are you with your RS1?"

For someone that's concerned with accurate color, this is a strange comment. AFAIK there's no multiplicative effect -- cranking down saturation based on how saturated the source is doesn't seem like it would ever be the right thing to do.

Sure, the measurements say that they're slightly oversaturated, but when people make comments like "you'd have to be color-blind" to not see it, well, that's pretty absurd. I've previously been using a Dilard-calibrated G15, and I'm certainly no expert so I don't know how color-calibrated that makes my previous projector, but as far as I'm concerned there's absolutely noting objectionable about the image that my RS1 throws.

Either you're not watching source material as oversaturated as some of the material I watch, or your projector is calibrated from the factory different than mine. And you are right, it may not be the right thing to do, but for now it serves its purpose for me.

On Tryg's suggestion, I watched a few minutes of the SD DVD Gladiator. I thought it looked very good, but I also thought that the skin tones looked wrong. Not terrible, but enough to distract me.

I plan on a professional calibration. It will be interesting to see what my ISF technician says.

He's gonna say "Hey, there's no menu access for calibration. I can't do much with this. Sorry.

I think this is a bit of hyperbole, but I am curious to know what steps, if any, have you taken to attempt to reduce the apparent over-saturation?

For small screen users, as light loss would not be too much of an issue, would it be possible to use CC filters to reduce the over saturation, if needed?

No. That would screw up your gray scale.

This thread is going around in circles. The colors are oversaturated on this projector, especially green and yellow. It may or may not bother you. If it doesn't bother you that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. It's an objectively measurable phenomenon.

Apparently, the color decoder is such that when using the component input you need to turn down the color control. This is a completely separate issue from the oversaturated color palette problem.

You cannot satisfactorily fix oversaturated colors by turning down the color control on the RS1 or on an external processor, such as the VP50. You cannot fix it with filters. You cannot fix it with an ISF calibration. The only way to fix it is with a well-implemented CMS. Period. There is really nothing more to be said about this.

The only currently-available add-on option that I know of that offers this is the $4000 Crystalio processor, and even its tools are rather limited.

(OT, sorry):
Thank you for those numbers. What Y-numbers are correct for PAL? The same numbers as Rec. 601 (since 601 is used for all SD-signals) but different x/y coordinates?

Spoken like a true salesman. To understand the JVC has oversatured colors, one only needs to glance at the CIE chart... it's there Tryg. Now to say it's distracting or unpleasurable is a matter of personal preference. I can certainly understand if you prefer the jazzed up colors.



Noah, if the survey you are referring to is the (only) one I recall, that survey asked if the RS1 met or exceeded our expectations, it was not focused on the oversaturated colors.



I'm not sure what you think is a hyperbole. I don't believe it's an exaggeration to say most normal people will notice the oversaturation. My wife noticed it instantly... and that says volumes! If you disagree with this, I can only assume your PJ looks noticeably different than mine. To answer your question, the only thing I've done is to play with all the available menu settings within the RS1. I have not found a way to correct the oversaturation. About the only control that seems to improve the oversaturation is dropping the 'color', but doing this degrades the image in other ways. I ended up setting the color at -5 as a compromise.

To the best of my knowledge there is no way of properly fixing the problem w/o a CMS. Likewise, I have yet to see any inexpensive methods to mask the problem that wont simultaneously create other issues. Filters or an ISF calibration will not fix the problem. While I'm not yet prepared to pay $4k+ for a VP that might help fix the problem, I am going to be watching to see how this VP pans out for this application.

He is now talking about the oversaturation as a "feature."

Does anyone take this kind of talk seriously?

It is one thing to like a projector and another to be so in love that you are blinded to imperfections.

Its not because he's a salesman. He was like that before he was working with AVS. That's just Tryg being Tryg.

Click

Tom the tech at Lumagen seemed pretty certain that most people would be happy with the HDQ getting to the 75% SMPTE bars for red and green. Not perfect but I do not think most of us really want perfect.

Yes, they are the same.

The Lumagen feature you mention allows you to adjust out any errors in the color decoder, which is a separate issue from the oversaturated gamut on this PJ. In any case, I understand that the color decoder is fine on the RS1, so this would not be a useful approach. Furthermore, the on-board deinterlacing of the RS1 is superior to the current Lumagens. The Radiance will be a big upgrade in this regard. I can't speak to what "most people would be happy with." As I said above, some people are bothered by this and others aren't.

"Noah, if the survey you are referring to is the (only) one I recall, that survey asked if the RS1 met or exceeded our expectations"

No, it was a different thread, it waqs only around for a couple of days.

Thanks for the clarification noah... I must have missed that.