Philips DVDR3575H/37 160G HDD DVD Recorder w/ ATSC tuner - Page 85  

See this post for instructions of making a front, end and mid-title cut (Scene Delete).

thanks wab, as always, you've come to the rescue.

could you just explain me a little bit about front, mid, and end cut?


i will have to do "mid cut" for my nba games then.

Yes, you only need the last of the three instructions (Mid-Cut) in that other post for each commercial you want to cut/delete.

The first two are for cutting stuff you don't want at the beginning and end of a title, like intro, end credits, other shows, etc. The instructions for those will help you cut the very first and very last frames as part of the end cuts, which can be difficult to do if you don't know how to make the edit menu STOP on the 1st and last frames and include them in the cut.

ah i have to do the front and end cut too for my games

i hope i don't mess it up...

Until you get used to making these cuts, try to Preview before committing to a Delete action. If not what you want, you can go back to Start and End points with up/dn arrow, reset one or both points, then Preview again. You can reset/Preview as many times as you need until you're satisified, then press the "Delete" button.

On your first End-Cut, just a "heads-up," don't be confused by what plays after you select the End point (end of title)...see the note in that other post on just ignoring what plays cuz it plays a few sec. at the end where you Started your end-cut, then plays the beginning of the title cuz that's all it can play as a Preview.

The end-cut red bar will remain solidly on the last frame while you see the end and beginning of the title...just select Delete and ignore what's playing... a Preview of an End-Cut really doesn't show anything helpful, like it does for a Mid-Cut.

I am sure someone will disagree with me, but this is my experience.

I have been recording the same Ohio State football games over the DVDR3575H's built-in ATSC tuner (using HD channels) and also via my Directv HR20 HD DVR using its ATSC tuner from the same OTA HD station. I have then connected the HR20 to the DVDR3575 via S-Video, replayed the HD recording from the HD20 and captured the same game downrezzed to SD on the DVD recorder and compared what should be two identical recordings. They are not even close. I find the DVDR3575H's built-in tuner recording to be of much lower quality. In particular, the players have well-defined dark outlines around them, whereas the S-video capture does not. I feel the s-video capture is slightly brighter, higher resolution and has fewer jaggies on horizontal lines. The fonts with score and down are clearer and more defined on the S-video capture.

As a result, if the item is for permanant archive, I capture it on my HR20 and then replay it and capture it on the DVDR3575H. I edit the game, trying to get it below 2 hours, and make a more than adequate recording in SP mode on DVD.

I use the built-in tuner only when I do not care about quality.

So, you're comparing a HD tuner/HD recording that STARTS with a resolution of ~25 Mbps to the same game captured by an SD tuner/SD recording that STARTS with a resolution of ~5 Mbps?

Even tho you're downrezzing the HD recording to SD via S-Video, it's thru a line input, so the full ~25 Mbps bypasses a tuner altogether and is available for making the SD-resolution copy...and you ended up with a higher-quality copy!

Holy Batmobile!...what an amazing revelation!?
...

Does anyone know what the firmware update fixes? There is an update for mine but I can,t find any info on what it does.

Here's what Philips says on the FW upgrads currently online:

Firmware BE Version: HD4P3374EH1E
Improvements:
Solve hang-up after attempting playback of certain unsupported JPEG formats

Firmware FE Version: R40_016_000
Improvements:
Improve optical drive performance

Thanks Wabjxo!

I think you missed part of his statement:

In both cases he is recording from the HD channel. The difference is where and how the down conversion from HD to SD takes place.

Here is how I understand it:

Recording directly on the DVD recorder has the HD to SD down conversion built in, perhaps in the ATSC tuner itself, or possibly between the tuner and the DVD drive.

Recording on the HR20 first results in the down conversion taking place at the output stage of the HR20 to feed the S-video output.

Hearing that the internal, hopefully "all-digital path" HD-->SD-->HDD-->DVD within the 3575 yields a lower-quality result is disappointing to me. I was hoping to eventually buy this or a successor unit to simplify my recordings of HD programs. I currently record HD programs first on a DirecTV HD TiVo, then send s-video to my Pioneer 520H DVD recorder, with excellent results.

I have wondered about the internal "all-digital" path and whether it might be more like HD-->SD-->Analog Video-->MPEG-2 Encoder-->HDD-->DVD, with the analog video possibilities including component, s-video or composite.

The reason I think this may be happening relates to my perception of the least expensive method of getting to market quickly with an ATSC-capable DVD recorder. The chips supporting the all-digital method may not have been available at reasonable cost in time for these early ATSC DVD recorders. Instead, they might have used available components, like an SDTV tuner that is used in an "SDTV" TV set (which is basically an analog TV with the ATSC tuner "tacked on" the front end) with an analog output connected to re-used circuitry from prior analog-input DVD recorders.

Hopefully the next generation of ATSC DVD recorders will improve the quality of recordings from HD sources. All that said, I realize (from reports here) that there is still a significant improvement in picture quality with the ATSC-based DVD recording when compared to and analog-TV-based recording of the same program.

I purchased a unit a week ago and have to return it due to System Error during dubbing. Philips tech support said that the unit had a internal error. I got another one yesterday. The package date was August 2007. I have problems scanning HD TV channels. It went thru the auto scanning successfully but none were found. I was able to auto scan the HD TV channels from my previous unit that I returned. I have COX cable. Has anyone run into this problems? Do I have a bad digital tuner? The analog tuner is working fine.

Dennis

If you picked the "Analog/Digital" auto-scan option, only thing you can do is retry the scan at least once again, maybe on another day as well to make sure Cox isn't playin with their system.

Although I wasn't expecting miracles, I have to admit that I was a little disappointed in that the downscaled HD recordings made directly from the Philips' internal tuner don't look anywhere near as good as the ones from my Sony DHG-HDD500 or Sammy H260F standalones to any of my SD HDD/DVD recorders (2 Pannies and a Sony).

It doesn't look bad at all on my 32" analog set (which the Philips is hooked up to now - with OTA) - in fact it looks quite good. But on my 50" Pio plasma, there is a WORLD of difference. If I could've stood it, I would've left it hooked up to the Pio, but I'm really spoiled by the performance of the other setup. With a little re-calibration it almost looks like HD (and from far enough back, it CAN look HD - depending on the source material) - with the Philips it wasn't even close. Not only is is much "softer", but it only has no more than half the detail.

My recommendation for anyone who wants to use a digital tuner with an SD recorder on an HD display (definitely one over 42") - if you want the absolute, best picture quality - would be to go with the Sammy tuner and a separate, good-quality recorder.

My recommendation for anyone who wants to use a digital tuner with an SD recorder on an HD display (definitely one over 42") - if you want the absolute, best picture quality - would be to go with the Sammy tuner and a separate, good-quality recorder.

I'll second that. I have a Samsung DTB-H260F tuner going through S-video and audio L-R to a Toshiba RD-XS32 set to a high bitrate. It's not HD but it's awfully good.

I tried again during lunch time. It is the same result. I know the Cox cable has HD signal because I have a HD TV w/ QAM tuner and is able to receive local HD channels. So what else can I try? Maybe I get another defective unit. I am going to call tech support when I get home.

Before you take it back, if possible, try to connect it using the same cable and connection that works for your QAM-tuner TV.

There is always the possibility of a bad cable or connector.

No... I was tuned to the same HD channel. The 3575 tuner will tune a HD channel and downrez it internally. It was the same digital OTA channel, same subchannel. So I was comparing the downrez capability of the DVDR versus the downrez capability of the HR20 DVR.

Now, once captured from the S-Video, it makes a surprisingly good DVD and looks very good when played back on several other upconverting DVD players. So the issue I see is only with the quality of capture off the digital tuner. The S-Video captures are top notch.

BTW, I am using a 60 inch 1080p plasma TV and the difference between the two tuners is quite noticable. However, it is not awful, just not as good as the capture from S-Video. As I said above, if it is something I really want in high quality, I use the HR20 and go the the extra time to play it into the 3570, edit and then to DVD in HQ or SP mode. If it is something that I really don't care about or have other shows that I want to watch off D*, then I program the 3575 to record, if it is OTA.

DVDR3575 PQ on Digital Channels in an Analog Cable Feed

We've been recording "Bones" and "House" in 2-hr-SP mode on Fox from our Time Warner (TW) basic analog cable service, and the PQ was good with both the 3575 and our Pio 640 before that.

For this week's shows, we changed the 3575's timer rec. to Fox's digital channel for the first time cuz we noticed the shows looked so much better on that channel. We also had our first chance to watch those timer-recorded shows on our new 47" 1080P LCD TV.

When we sat down to watch the shows, we both said something like, Holy C**, what a stunning picture! Of course, we were used to watching the shows on an "old" analog channel. It's sort of like our good, clear SD-analog-channel on steroids!

Sort of reinforces the obvious: a high-quality recording starts with the source! That's proven true every time I've recorded a football game on a digital HD channel, even tho it's downrezzed to SD... no comparison to a game on an analog channel.

But then I was playing with some of the TV's controls and noticed that, when on any of my 7 digital channels, I couldn't set Digital CC on, only Analog CC... WTH... I know some or all of those channels have CC (ESPN HD, TNT, Fox, Discovery, etc.), and they're on digital channels!?

Got me to thinking...maybe I'm not really getting true digital channels, just some cableco converted analog version of an original digital broadcast or microwave feed?

In researching a little, I found a possible answer from Lauren Weinstein's Blog (lauren.vortex. com) in an article titled "Are You Being Cheated by Digital Cable?" A telling section hit home, when she said this:

"The TiVo HD has easily accessible diagnostic modes which clearly spill all the beans relating to these issues. Here in the West Valley (Los Angeles) system of Time Warner Cable, I can clearly see that, at the moment, virtually all basic cable channels in the digital tiers that have simulcast analog (under channel 100) equivalents, are actually being delivered as analog channels, at least to my cableCARDs."

Hey, I'm on TW cable and ALL my digital channels have an equivalent analog channel under 100! This might explain why I can't set Digital CC...I'm not getting digital channels, just a digital>analog version delivered in a TW-specified "digital" channel slot?

Anyway, I do know the shows on my digital channels all view and record in much higher quality than shows on my analog channels, so they must start out as high-quality, HD digital (most have "HD" as part of channel name) and just get repackaged by the cableco as Lauren indicates in her article.

I've never seen ANY of the "artifacts" that some people see and complain about, only some occasional macroblocks. Since digital is broadcast in macroblocks, with instructions for reassembly, I figure those short "blips" will be normal for awhile, at least until the cablecos get their digital act together by or after 2009... and maybe stop compressing the macroblocks so much... one can hope, anyway.

Can't speak for anyone else, but in my system, I get the best picture from the 3575's tuner and home DVDs with $18 Digital AV composite cables from Wal-Mart... noticeably better than S-Video, Component, or even HDMI at any resolution (in fact, 480p worked better than 1080p!?). It does make some sense, tho, since the signal we all receive is composite (only commercial DVDs have Component video), so my 3575s apparently do better not trying to split the signal into discrete elements?

Some people report excellent PQ with their HDMI on a 3575, so I had to try it, and it does make a slight difference in PQ when playing commercial DVDs, but HDMI is actually worse in my system for anything else. However, the difference is so small I might not have the incentive to change the TV to its HDMI input when playing those DVDs.

On the other hand, I might just have an "odd" but excellent setup...or I need my vision checked... no, can't be that, my wife said "Holy Cow" (thought it was somethin else, didn't ya?) the same time I did...and she sees, hears, and smells EVERYTHING!?

In our local Comcast system, we have our choice of three different versions of each of the major TV channels (network and large independents), and in some cases, four versions:

1. The original analog channel, sent to us over cable on the channel position chosen by the cable company, with the "larger" channels in the same slot as they are in their over-the-air (OTA) broadcasts (e.g., 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, etc.)

2. The cable company digital conversions of those same original analog channels, squeezed usually ten deep in the space of a former analog channel (e.g., 81.2 through 81.10). They also convert analog "cable channels" (i.e., not available OTA) in the same manner.

3. The actual digital channels delivered by the broadcast stations, the larger of which are in high definition (HDTV) and the smaller ones in standard definition (SDTV). These high-definition channels are delivered in 16x9 widescreen for true HDTV programs and a 4x3 window within the 16x9 screen for SDTV programs and analog programs converted to digital by the broadcast station before being sent to the cable company. On cable, there are typically two of these HDTV channels in the space of one former analog channel (e.g., 72.1 and 72.2), or, a few more if there is a mix of HD and SD digital channels sharing a native channel slot.

It is no surprise that group 3 above provides the best available picture quality. In our area, the HDTV picture quality over cable is close to, if not equal to, the HDTV picture quality available OTA.

The group 2 channels have many strikes against them:
a. They started as 480i analog channels;
b. They are highly compressed, to squeeze more of them into a single 6 MHz channel slot.
c. They are digitally converted and MPEG-2 compressed and encoded by cable company equipment which appears to be inferior in quality when compared analog-to-digital conversions performed at/by the broadcast stations.

If the group 1 analog channel reception is not very good (susceptible to noise, reflections, etc.) then the group 2 converted channels can look better, especially on a smaller screen TV. If the group 1 channels are exceptionally clean and clear, their picture quality is much better than the heavily-compressed digital group 2 equivalent channels.

At my house, the group 1 analogs are marginal quality, the group 2 converted digital channels offer less analog artifacts (noise, ghosts, etc.) but trade them for noticable digital artifacts (pixelation, macroblocking, etc.). When viewed on a smaller screen, the differences seem small, but viewed on a large-screen HDTV, the artifacts become very visible and distracting.

In my experiences here, groups 1 and 2 only offer analog closed captioning, while group 3 offers digital closed captions.

Just going by an OTA signal, I find the Philips' analog tuner to have relatively better picture quality than the digital (remember - I said "relatively").

I get most of the analog OTA channels in quite clearly, and they look especially good.

So I'd imagine if you're getting a strong, clean cable signal, the purely analog channels would probably look really good, too. And you won't see any digital artifacts like you say, so they may very well look better than the 480i digital versions.

In fact, the analog OTA channels from the Philips' tuner look better than most of my crappy, over-compressed, digital 480i E* ones do (of course, the locals are easily the worst-looking channels on SD satellite). I get plenty of the pixellation and macroblocking you mention, but I probably get more "mosquito noise" than any other annoying artifact. Drives me nuts at times. I'm seriously considering one of those Algolith Fleas. Not cheap, but supposedly very effective with all types of mpeg2 artifacts, without softening the picture or smearing out the detail.

Not sure what your fourth version is, but I have noticed that cable HD local channels are often SD quality when the show is local, such as news. But when they shift to prime time national broadcasts, they are HD. Also the commercials are often SD even in prime time. And when the local channel puts in its logo, the picture shifts to SD.

During this transition period, it is a grab bag of signals with HD, SD, digital and analog all mixed together in the cable universe.

When things settle down, cable better get their act together. Viewers will not settle for SD quality after they have seen HD. Interesting how Direct TV is pushing the number of HD channels it carries, while my local cable co only has about 16.

nope, Prison Break and House were unwatch-able. it seems to only be an issue on Fox feeds that are simulcast with global. That kelsey grammar show [which i don't watch, but was curious to see if it had the same issue] was much the same. I subscribe to Cogeco in Milton and the more I think of it, it MUST be a cable issue (not the machine).

It is funny because you can see the visible change come about as it flips from "native" signal to the simulcast one.

If I didn't have such a good package I would dump cogeco in a heartbeat to get a better signal. I bought my machine at Best Buy 09-21-07 so... it is mine to keep now

No complaints other than this though and this isn't even the machine's issue. Thank again for you assistance (especially knowing that someone out there is getting a clear signal on the same show helped me track the problem back)

I will take off my splitter to strengthen the signal but... not holding my breath.

If something comes about, I will post it.. thanks again.

I've noticed a few times when local stations put up their "Storm Warning" local information on top of the HD network broadcast, the picture changes to SD. Fortunately that doesn't seem to happen often - I guess they are upgrading their equipment.

I recently test recorded (onto the HDD) a HD broadcast that the digital tuner in the Phillips was able to pick up from the CABLE TV (Cox)feed. Quality I found was really quite good, without the black bars on top and below the picture. (Unlike recording the HD program via the S video feed from the cablebox, which results in a compressed picture with black bars at top and below.) I recorded the test program in the SP mode which I believe to be the best compromise.

Glad I could be of assistance.
I was thinking it might be a cable issue, I am on cogeco too (in Oakville) so maybe it's something specific to your area.

Best of luck.

I tried with different cable connector and cable. It is still no HD channels. I also noticed that several analog channels like Fox were dropped from auto scan. I am going to return the unit and order another one from CC. Hopefully the third one will work for me. Thanks for all your helps.

Just got my unit this week from J&R (came 2 days after placing web order)
It all works as advertised. (I have only analog cable).

Haven't even begun to tackle all its features but setup and simple timed & live recording to the HDD have worked well.

Looking to try editing and saving to DVD this weekend.

Kathy.

katnel20, hope you like the 3575 as much as I do!

What is the "Pack Date" on the short end of your Philips box?

Let us know how it works with your analog cable, and how many digital channels you pick up?

Well, I didn't "miss" anything and I've understood what you did all along, but I go berserk every time someone with HD equipment tries to compare the SD tuner in a cheap, $300 DVDR with their HD tuner (as you did in the quote above...again), or the recorded SD image at 5Mbps with a recorded HD image at 25 Mbps... no matter how you process those images.

To say "the difference between the two tuners is quite noticeable" is like saying "the difference between night and day is amazing"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The only thing a newbie will come away with is "the SD DVDR's tuner is bad or inadequate" since they haven't even experienced the SD world yet, much less the lofty HD world.

So, to all newbies out there still trying to decide on DVD equipment: whenever you see someone "rating" or trying to "compare" a standard-definition (SDTV) unit with their "HD" (High Definition) equipment, stop reading unless you are trying to set up a full-up HDTV system.

If you're really looking for HD recording, you're wasting your time in this forum and will be better served by one of the HDTV forums.

The Philips 3575 box shows the "SDTV" symbol pretty clearly, so that's what you'll get, as you will with ANY OTHER, new, NTSC/ATSC/QAM-tunered, standalone DVD recorder available in North America today. You CAN rent a HD DVR w/o a DVD recorder from a sat or cable company, but you can't buy one for use in North America right now.

SD and HD are in two different games, not just different ballparks. SD tuners are designed for a recording bit-rate of ~2-10 Mbps, while HD tuners are designed for ~20-30 Mbps, and Mbps is crucial in resolving fine detail in a moving picture. HD tuners have to be designed to higher standards so the user doesn't lay down 20-30 Mbps of c*** in his/her recordings.

You really can't compare a HD recorder with an SD recorder...any brand, any model...unless you're trying to put down a particular brand on purpose or by accident.

You can make comparisons between SDTV tuners in different models/brands, but remember, it's very subjective and PQ results can sometimes depend more on the system/TV, type of connection (Component and HDMI are not always the "best"), and the care taken in setting the system up.

If undecided, your best bet is to buy one from a local store with a good return policy and, within 30 days, you should know if the DVDR is right for you.

If you've already purchased the 3575, don't be upset by any such comparisons unless you thought you were getting an HDTV recorder.

People who told you in this thread, and in other forums, that they were getting excellent results from their 3575 weren't lying to you but, still, it is only what they see with their system.

Disclaimer: I don't care if anyone buys a Philips 3575 or not but, if they do, I'll do my best to reveal all its "secrets" and make sure they know how to operate it in an SDTV, tape-my-soaps-and-football-games world!

In that regard, here's a list of Philips DVDR3575 subjects you might be interested in now or later, with links to detailed info.