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My Blendzilla rig & HT room construction therea - Page 5

post #121 of 197
William,

We have been lobbying on multiple continents for both hardware & software changes.

I thought it was rather odd that A Ways new products announcements at Infocomm contained no products in their entire line that utilized HDMI. Now don't get me wrong, I hate it too but that is a rather amazing position for a presentation technology company to put itself in.
post #122 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by antorsae View Post

The two PJs are ceiling mounted now, and the room looks a bit better:
...
Oh!! How right was Gino when he told me that you really need to become a MASTER to do this right.

Andres, that's a bit of an understatement mate, your room looked like something exploded in it when I was working in there. Looks like you can walk around fine in there now without tripping over!

I might be able to make that second trip out later if you still need some help.

Would imagine the Genelec system is wired up properly and sounding much better now too. I was watching Harsh Times on HD-DVD last night, the LFE on the TrueHD track is unbelievable... I've never felt the kitchen rattle so much!
post #123 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr View Post

Ok, that's it. I'm gonna move out there with you big dog. I'll bring the G90's and we'll do a quad stack/blend.

That should cover about a year and a half rent!

You bring those G90's down here Cliffy... the ht room is 8m x 9m.. plenty of room
post #124 of 197
Gino;

You might have better luck with Art's G90s, since he's gone (hands to face, swift breath inward)......digital.

Mark;

I most humbly apologize for leaving you off the BlendZilla owner's list. We need to ratchet up the lobbying. Who exactly have you been lobbying? I come from Lobbytown USA. Remember? And I know Mark Haflich!!! That has to count for something.

I would think that firmware upgrades are much more likely than HDCP compliant DVI or HDMI inputs.

William
post #125 of 197
There are only 2 features I'd really like for the DVX

1. Custom output resolutions with control of timings. If not, at least the option of 1440x1080 or Hx1080 @72/75 to each projector
2. IR control. If not, at least the option to auto select active input, or auto select input1 on power up.
post #126 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkosmann View Post

You might have better luck with Art's G90s, since he's gone (hands to face, swift breath inward)......digital.

I wouldn't trade what I have for any CRT in the world. My review of MP's special 03 mods will be up this weekend.
post #127 of 197
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkosmann View Post


MP and I are about to start completely redoing the Virginia BlendZilla setup, for the East Coast BlendZilla Meet Part Deaux, to be shown at a personal IMAX far away from you, on 2007 October 20. You are cordially invited to flit across the pond, and pop on in.

William - another meet will be awesome! Any chance to move this meet closer to Cedia (Sept 5-9 2007?)? That would kill two birds with one stone! Of course... you are invited here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

Andres, that's a bit of an understatement mate, your room looked like something exploded in it when I was working in there. Looks like you can walk around fine in there now without tripping over!

I might be able to make that second trip out later if you still need some help.

Would imagine the Genelec system is wired up properly and sounding much better now too. I was watching Harsh Times on HD-DVD last night, the LFE on the TrueHD track is unbelievable... I've never felt the kitchen rattle so much!

Oh yes... when you were visiting the HT room (and my whole house, btw) was in an almost embarrassing state (recently moved in) .

Gino... all the Genelecs are properly setup now. When we ceiling mounted the PJs I insisted in testing the ceiling mount by leaving the elevating platform in place and pumping the LFE at an unreasonable level (Halo 3 trailer, Gears of War on XB360) and watching that the PJ didn't fall BIG BASS!

I'd LOVE to have you over here! What do you think US Cedia with a little stop over in sunny Spain?

With regargs to Analog Way... I am not very optimistic that they will implement the features we want, even if some are ubber-trivial (follow refresh rate of active signal, auto-select upon start up... COME ON!).

BR - Andres
post #128 of 197
Used to spend more time in Spain when my Sister resided in Madrid, but now that she is in Italy my travel habits have adjusted.

William, I snuck on the list so no worries. I talk mainly to the Dallas Analog Way Rep & to Benoit Lamy. We should probably step that up to Ludovic Mellot or the President Marc Loret. Not sure of the patience level however since we are not the target market.

Can we please just go HD-SDI all the way to the PJ & forget about this ridiculous HDMI "handshake" crap!!
post #129 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

There are only 2 features I'd really like for the DVX

1. Custom output resolutions with control of timings. If not, at least the option of 1440x1080 or Hx1080 @72/75 to each projector
2. IR control. If not, at least the option to auto select active input, or auto select input1 on power up.

Gino - point one is available on TVONE blending units.

point 2 - the tvone unit will boot up into the last settings from standyby OR total powerup.

"Macro" selection allows different settings for different viewing ratios - I now have 16:9 and 2.35:1 setup and the push of one button changes all settings.

Zoom values, blend zone size, H&V reposition, etc

The TVONE 7200 unit is NOT remote control, BUT can be used under a "control system" that outputs RS232 - eg Crestron, RTI, Pronto etc.

(ALSO NOTE the RTI controllers can now control Crestron processors)


BY THE WAY - ANYONE looking for a cheap all in one blending box then I think the time is nearly here, I will provide more information very soon, BUT I HAVE THE ANSWER, A full evaluation unit will be here VERY soon, its a specific blending unit basic unit will be 2 channel (What most of us require), and the final cost should be about £1700.00 . "whisper quiet" with several inputs. Currently NOT HDCP compliant but that is being looked into.................

Maybe I will start a new thread about this.....................
post #130 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by damon View Post

Can we please just go HD-SDI all the way to the PJ & forget about this ridiculous HDMI "handshake" crap!!

Thats a tough one...............

HD SDI seems very difficult to get hold of, and WORKING modules even harder .

Though slowly more are available, just price is ususlly fairly high due to low demand - Yep I agree drop the price more will be bought, BUT currently broadcast will buy at high prices, consumer market will not..........Until there is a massive supply of modules this is a difficult situation.

HDMI is terrible, I still cant get the Sony BDP-S1 I have on loan here to run correctly and I would love to see 1080p24 from it ........
post #131 of 197
Thread Starter 
I don't fully understand what the HD-SDI fuss is about. A reality check:

- HDCP can be stripped off by a number of devices. Some hard to find, but they exist and work today.

- HDMI, even DVI-D single-channel can transmit up to 1080p @ 72 Hz. I don't think HD-SDI can do that; please educate me if I my understanding is incorrect. I have my HT equipment in a separate room than the PJs and DVI-D works with no issues. I am using 50 ft. DVI cables.

I don't like HDMI/DVI either; I would prefer a more solid transmission framework, but this is what we have and it works today for 1080p @ 72 Hz. DVI-D double-channel (one DVI cable, but connector with all pins in both ends) can double that. Many PC video cards support DVI-D double-channel already but unfortunately many DVI-D receivers are DVI-D single-channel only (e.g most 1080p monitors, the DVX8022, etc.).
post #132 of 197
The advantage as I see it, and this is for my own system........

High quality DVI cable are expensive, HD SDI are cheap.

SDI / HD SDI is taken from early in the video chain within the player (HD DVD, Blu Ray, SKY etc) and so a cleaner signal from the very start of the video chain.

The reason HD SDI will inly be about 1080p24 / 29.97 etc is that is what the player is able to produce - I dont know the limit of HD SDI but it is higher than that. You can also have dual link HD SDI.

I think it might be worth you asking other SDI users . I only started SDi with my HD SDI HD DVD player.

In my system ths also allows the scaler to be next to the projectors so very short RGBHV (1-2m) cables.


I have to say that 50ft in a DVI cable is very impressive, im sure the spec for DVI is for about 9-12ft at 1080p

Have you tried to run very short cables and see if you notice a differance ???

At 50ft I would suggest fibre DVI cables - that adds another format change in the video signal chain which I feel best to avoid, but sometimes cant be helped.


By the way - Im now running 1080x817 to each PJ - they just got sharper
Any custom resolution upto 2048x2048 can be used.
post #133 of 197
Thread Starter 
Hi Andy... can you input 2000ish by 1080 @ 72 Hz to the blending unit via a digital input?
post #134 of 197
Thread Starter 
Regarding my DVI-D cables, no; I have not tried an A/B vs. other shorter cables but I have A/B'd them vs high-quality RGBHV of the same length; conclusions so far:

- I perceive no difference vs. RGBHV vs. DVI-D
- Test patterns look great on both; and the fact that there are no sparkles in DVI-D shows no signal is being lost; so I'd say signal integrity is 100%. This is based on Moome DVI-D input card for marquee.

Regarding the comparison one must note that we are really testing:

- Blendzilla DACs + RGBHV cable
- DVI-D cable + Moome DVI-D DACs.

I will repeat this test when I get my new moome HDMI cards; which supposedly have 10 bit DACs (as opposed to 8-bits as present in the DVI-D one).

I think that unless you have some crazy requirements (absurd cable lengths... etc.) SDI doesn't really add anything.
post #135 of 197
Dear Andres;

The next time that I know I am going to Europe is for a conference in Scotland, in 2008 October. If a trip comes up before that, I will let you know.

I cannot host a BlendZilla Meet before October 19. A Mars mission proposal I have been working on for almost 2 years is due to NASA on October 19. This is going to take all my time between now and then, with a little left over to set up for the next Meet.

Who makes high quality 1080P @ 72 Hz DVI-D cables? I have Belden 1694 RGBHV cables run from the BlendZilla to each Marquee. I would also like to try the RGBHV versus DVD-D test.

What BlendZilla resolution are you outputting to each Marquee @ 72 Hz? Have you tried all of the resolutions that are available for blending?

William
post #136 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by antorsae View Post

Hi Andy... can you input 2000ish by 1080 @ 72 Hz to the blending unit via a digital input?

Currently the DVI-D input is limited to 108Mhz

1080p30 will sneak in.



However if im right then you would input 1080p24 and set the output refresh rate to 72Hz.

IF you were coming from a PC then you could input RGBHV up to 2048x2048, max vertcal refresh rate 250Hz, max horizontal frequency 150Khz
post #137 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMrH View Post

By the way - Im now running 1080x817 to each PJ - they just got sharper

Why this resolution Andy? For 2.35 movies? You don't see scanlines? Or this is not an issue as your screen isn't very tall?
post #138 of 197
Thread Starter 
William,

I am using 60-ft Belden 7712A cables (purchased from Blue Jeans cable) and the following DVI cables:

DVI Male Digital/DVI Male Digital Dual Link (24AWG) Cable - 50FT (Gold Plated/Black) (P/N 2185)

Which are not really very expensive ($50/ea). I have tested them to do 1365x1024 @ 72 Hz. I have NOT tested them yet to do 1080p @ 72 Hz to each PJ as this is not a configuration you'd use to feed the Marquees with the Blendzilla anyway. If 50 ft doesn't work at such high res/freq, you may try cat5/6 dvi extenders. I have one but have not tested it yet. They are ~$300.
post #139 of 197
Thread Starter 
I forgot: DVI cables purchased from monoprice
post #140 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

Why this resolution Andy? For 2.35 movies? You don't see scanlines? Or this is not an issue as your screen isn't very tall?

my thoughts....talking out loud.........

for 2.35 there are 817 lines in the actual image area
for 2.4:1 there are 800 lines
for 16:9 1080 lines.

My opinion is that any upscale might soften the image - so I decided to go right back to native resolutions, this brings with it reduced bandwidth, lower running temps, sharper focus. We are talking tiny changes here, but they are still visible in the image.

at 1080x817 if you are within 1m of the screen then I can seen faint scan lines.

I have a rare set of eyes !!! I have 20:20 vision - thats true of many people, but and i did not know about this till a couple of years ago - I actually have what was called "20:20 Zero perscription vision" - that means I was able to refocus every single lens set placed infront of my eyes - Im not an optician so I hope that makes sense to others - for me that means I believe I am able to be critical of a setup beyond some others.

I dont see scan lines from any row of seating

this is just part of testing and looking for the best options, I can saw that the blend looked the best it has ever been last night. The only issue I could see was at high IRE levels atround 100 - That is an issue of the green tubes, I believe the next set of projectors will not suffer from that.

The TVONE will allow any custom resolution to be used - this takes about 30 seconds to create each one. So I decided to test some out.

What is also available are "macro" recalls of different settings - so one button press and a different set of perameters for 2.4 / 2.35 / 16:9 blend, size etc are all recalled - The only down side I have found so far is the lack of an IR control - BUT RS232 control is there and these are units NOT designed for the domestic market place - the control system is being looked into for my Home Cinema at the mo.......(Im waiting for RTI to release the R3 remote in Black which is due soon.....)
The only other issue I have is the fan noise - I have a way round that but I just gotta wait till TVONE agree as this requires me to open the case for modfication, its not high on my list at the mo........


I am about to forward another "feature request" to TVONE to do with the Marco system - I have to say that these guys have been great to work with, my requests have been actioned or added to an action list - Priority related of course and the list is from all users. They are actually getting things done and that makes me a real happy customer .

The above are mentioned as plus point for TVONE and not to be taken as negative points agains other firms, I was not at all happy with Nvidia as I never got anywhere with them.
post #141 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by antorsae View Post

If 50 ft doesn't work at such high res/freq, you may try cat5/6 dvi extenders. I have one but have not tested it yet. They are ~$300.


Please dont !!!

I use cat5 video systems on large commercial systems - the results are not as good as I would like.

The image quality is reduced.

Some commercial installations are not as concerned about the image quality and so the cat5 route reduces costs but in the long run also add issues to the image.


I would run RGBHV from Di Ventix to the PJs - I still think for my Barcos thats the best option for my system.


I post based on first hand use of these products.
post #142 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by damon View Post

Used to spend more time in Spain when my Sister resided in Madrid, but now that she is in Italy my travel habits have adjusted.

William, I snuck on the list so no worries. I talk mainly to the Dallas Analog Way Rep & to Benoit Lamy. We should probably step that up to Ludovic Mellot or the President Marc Loret. Not sure of the patience level however since we are not the target market.

Can we please just go HD-SDI all the way to the PJ & forget about this ridiculous HDMI "handshake" crap!!


Why not switch to TV One, the all HD-SDI (unfortunately not 3, let alone 4,5 gigabit/s) model is about the same price as the Blendzilla?

The Analog RGB/low res. DVI boxes or the pc card are less expensive , starting at around 1000,- Dollar/Euro, and would also allow for a four way blend with two boxes/cards.

I have seen the then fairly new 7200 (at least that's what it/they said;-)) on a small screen using two small lcd projectors, at ISE 2007, at the beginning of this year and the blendzone looked okay, although was in a lit exhibition hall.

From their IBC preview email:

The new C2-7260 Dual Channel Video Processor is going to be hot talking point this year. Like the existing and popular C2-7200, the C2-7260 is feature-laden with an astounding arsenal including Dual PIP, Seamless Switching, Multiple Conversion and Scaling including SD-HD conversion, Chroma and Luma Keying and also the fantastic new Edgeblending feature, but unlike the C2-7200, the C2-7260 now adds an additional 6 inputs of SD/HD-SDI giving a total of 8 SD/HD-SDI inputs.

The new C2-7310 video AND audio processor makes debut in Europe
The C2-7310 Dual Channel Video and Audio Processor will also be making its debut in Europe. Incorporating the same features and functions as the C2-7200, the new C2-7310 adds the most powerful audio processing in its category. It allows the user to embed, de-embed, delay, mix, route, and sample rate convert an astonishing 48 channels of Digital Stereo Audio to satisfy even the most challenging requirements.

Edit: I see MadMrH beat me to it. TV One became of interest when they started to include the blend option in their firmware (late last year?). Since all (most) products share this firmware, the function is also standard on the cheaper products (compared to the top of the line 7000 series at 6-16 K list).

Late last year/early this year they launched the 260 pc card at Euro 875,- plus tax, list (US pricing generally lower on these US products). And a few months ago they announced their One Task line Corio2 scaler/switcher box with the same firmware, so the same blendfunction as the more expensive boxes (but would one need two?).

I also asked for higher resolution DVI inputs (and outputs, as they also lack on the 7200 they were showing, the fully loaded HD-SDI version wasn't out yet, so a DVI-in/RGB-out option would be nice for CRT owners, I suggested. Of course this is not a key market for them, but with many higher resolution presentation projectors being fitted with DVI inputs they took on the suggestion and told me 'watch this space'.

UKP 1700,-, sounds like a lot, compared with their recently launched stand-alone box: "The 1T-C2-400 PC/HD Scaler retails at £445 (655) and is available to order now". If my memory serves me right this one was said to include the Corio 2 blend functionality, but I can't confirm this from the online specsheet, http://www.inside.nl/mailing/200705/pdf/1T-C2-400.pdf.

But even if they are single channel units, given their price (roughly UKP 1000,- for two One Task units) the new stand alone boxes as well as the pc cards are still worth looking into.
post #143 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

Why not switch to TV One, the all HD-SDI (unfortunately not 3, let alone 4,5 gigabit/s) model is about the same price as the Blendzilla?

I don't understand your argument here. What does the TVOne have that BlendZilla can't do to want to spend the same amount of money? Is it because it has so many HD-SDI connections and audio processing?? What about in terms of blending PQ and functionality? Just very interested, if it can give me a better image I'm all for it. Do you know if they have one without the audio processing? So atm how do we connect our CRT's to it?

FYI, Mark (damon) already has his DVX.
post #144 of 197
They are combining an audio processor into the existing model, the 7200 MadMrH is using, to get this new 7310. So, the base product doesn't include an audio processor.

The 7260 was introduced at NAB, and added 6 further six HD/SD-SDI inputs to the 7200. The 7200 already has an HD/SD-SDI input, and would be considerably less expensive than the Blendzilla, starting at I believe 6.5 K Euro plus tax (would have to check the price list for exact amount). Adding things like the extra HD-SDI inputs (+outputs) runs the most expensive version to about 16K list, the same as the Blendzilla.

I did indeed respond to the "why can't we just have all HD-SDi and be done with it" remark, and the expectation that it would not come from that vendor (of the Blendzilla, not going to check its name, as it is 5 AM overhere), at least not anytime soon. If one has the Blendzilla budget there is an HD-SDI alternative out there, ready to be acquired of the shelf.

The same software (all of this runs in software on FPGAs) is also used in less expensive PC cards and 'One Task' boxes, introduced following the 7200. The 7200 being the model in which they started to add blending as a standard feature. These cheaper options being the ones we were most interested in on the Dutch forum .

I gathered that he already had a Blendzilla, and was generally happy with the blender, except for some issues, like the HD-SDI inputs and control issues, lacking custom resolutions, which the 7200 does support, and wasn't satisfied with the way the manufacturer supported its product/responded to his needs. For existing Blendzilla owners throwing that blender into the bin would probably not be much of an option, as they already found work around for connectivity and control issues.

Also there was a question mark at the end of that sentence, providing people with the opportunity to tell us why they wouldn't go for the TV One option.

I read today that MadMrH is expecting a blendzilla to compare it to the 7200, so I would wait and see what he has to say after putting both through the wringer.

I haven't seen the Blendzilla, so can't comment on performance. I did see a limited digital set-up with the 7200, which looked good. The first results from MadMrH also look promising. The software approach does work in its favour, nothing being set in sillicon.
post #145 of 197
Dear Andres and Gino;

MP came over on Sunday and we finished swapping the blue and red CRTs on the left projector. I guess we earned my new signature (the one with the triple entendre).

Gino, when you did the swap, did you

1) rerun the red G2 cable throughout the projector, or

2) did you not swap the red and blue G2 cables and just remembered they were reversed whenever setting up greyscale, or

3) did you lengthen the red G2 cable?

Andreas, have you swapped the red and blue CRTs on one of your projectors?

Inquiring minds want to know.
post #146 of 197
Thread Starter 
Hi - I have not yet swapped the tubes, but I plan to do so. I have received a new B tube from Terry (the original one I got shown retrace lines and Terry sent me a replacement one as the dust didn't go with the G2/contrast procedure... GREAT SERVICE TERRY and thanks!) so I have to take that B down and while I'm at it, swap the R and G.

I'd also like to know about the G2 and how exactly one is it do it before I embark on it.

I am waiting for my 02P Specials from MP to do the final setup... if there is such thing.
post #147 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

I did indeed respond to the "why can't we just have all HD-SDi and be done with it" remark, and the expectation that it would not come from that vendor (of the Blendzilla, not going to check its name, as it is 5 AM overhere), at least not anytime soon. If one has the Blendzilla budget there is an HD-SDI alternative out there, ready to be acquired of the shelf.

Actually, the blendzilla already comes with dual HD-SDI inputs and outputs. I think the problem is having HD-SDI inputs on the CRT projector.

Quote:


I gathered that he already had a Blendzilla, and was generally happy with the blender, except for some issues, like the HD-SDI inputs and control issues, lacking custom resolutions, which the 7200 does support, and wasn't satisfied with the way the manufacturer supported its product/responded to his needs. For existing Blendzilla owners throwing that blender into the bin would probably not be much of an option, as they already found work around for connectivity and control issues.

This is my dilemma. I'm really keen for custom resolutions. If Andy can say that the TVOne unit performs better than the DVX in terms of both PQ and control of the blend, then I have to consider if the improvement is worth the cost of selling my DVX for the TVOne.
post #148 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkosmann View Post

MP came over on Sunday and we finished swapping the blue and red CRTs on the left projector. I guess we earned my new signature (the one with the triple entendre).

Gino, when you did the swap, did you

Congrats William! Nice signature

I'm sure you'll find like I did that having reds at centre will allow better focus in the blendzone.

To answer, I lengthened the G2 so that everything functions as normal.
post #149 of 197
Guys!

I was wondering if you had tried an HDFury straight into the DVX 15 pin inputs to deal with HDCP......? If so, how does it look?
post #150 of 197
Tim;

Your suggestion is precisely what I want to try, just as soon as Mike gets my projectors up and running again. We are not quite there yet.

In fact, I have a new Moome DVI/DVI repeater also on order, and want to do a faceoff between the HDFury and the Moome card, each through the BlendZilla. Stay tuned.

Eventually I would also like to install a pair of DVI input cards in the projectors, and go all digital into the Marquees, to see if that makes a difference.

William
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