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Redbook only verses SACD/CD Players - Page 3

post #61 of 141
It ends when you engage the the Ignore feature on this person. He trashes more threads than a bad tailor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by VicAjax View Post

actually, dynamics are objective and they can be measured quite easily. sheesh man, does it ever end?
post #62 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodSonics View Post

It ends when you engage the the Ignore feature on this person. He trashes more threads than a bad tailor.

i know... i just fear that without voices of reason, newbies will come looking for advice, see his 5,500+ post count, and assume he has a clue what he's talking about.
post #63 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by VicAjax View Post

i know... i just fear that without voices of reason, newbies will come looking for advice, see his 5,500+ post count, and assume he has a clue what he's talking about.

Speak for yourself. Oh, wait, you were speaking for yourself, since you are the one who obviously doesn't have a clue.
Everything I write is based on my own first-hand experience, and therefore correct by definition.
post #64 of 141
You are a better man than I then. My reading goes much better when I just see:

PULLIAMM
This message is hidden because PULLIAMM is on your ignore list.

Anyway, back to the thread that keeps getting derailed... I am quite curious how much improvement people hear with the dedicated players when using digital outs.

I can hear a difference between my Sony 300 CD Changer and my Denon 3930ci. Is there kind of a point of diminshing returns at some point? The Denon has pretty good components and my Prepro's DACS would be used. Would a dedicated player sound much better with Digital Outs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VicAjax View Post

i know... i just fear that without voices of reason, newbies will come looking for advice, see his 5,500+ post count, and assume he has a clue what he's talking about.
post #65 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

Speak for yourself. Oh, wait, you were speaking for yourself, since you are the one who obviously doesn't have a clue.
Everything I write is based on my own first-hand experience, and therefore correct by definition.

Good, then at least do us all a favor and qualify your statements with an IMHO, or at least an IMO.

As regards your first-hand experience with CDPs, isn't it limited to mostly your own Onkyo CD changer? So then stop claiming to be an expert since, by your own definition, your opinion is based on what you hear, and you couldn't possibly have heard most of the higher-end gear out there.
post #66 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodSonics View Post

You are a better man than I then. My reading goes much better when I just see:

PULLIAMM
This message is hidden because PULLIAMM is on your ignore list.

Anyway, back to the thread that keeps getting derailed... I am quite curious how much improvement people hear with the dedicated players when using digital outs.

I can hear a difference between my Sony 300 CD Changer and my Denon 3930ci. Is there kaind of a point of diminshing returns at some point? The Denon has pretyy good components and my Prepro's DACS would be used. Would a dedicated player sound much better with Digital Outs?

I'm guilty of it too. It's much less annoying using the Ignore feature, but there's still that part of the human psyche that just can't help but gawk at a train wreck...

Back to your question...FWIW, I tried it and I really couldn't say that I can hear any difference between transports (dedicated CD vs. universal player). Granted, I have no data to back this up, and admittedly, I wouldn't really expect there to be that much of a difference, but again...that's just my 2 cents.


Scott
post #67 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodSonics View Post

Anyway, back to the thread that keeps getting derailed... I am quite curious how much improvement people hear with the dedicated players when using digital outs.

I can hear a difference between my Sony 300 CD Changer and my Denon 3930ci. Is there kind of a point of diminshing returns at some point? The Denon has pretty good components and my Prepro's DACS would be used. Would a dedicated player sound much better with Digital Outs?

there are people who believe that different transports do have audible differences. however, i've yet to hear any difference among transports when using digital output.

i will say that my favorite transport/DAC combo i've heard is a combo from North Star, which uses an I2S connection rather than coax or optical. whether this output contributed to the great sound quality, i've no idea.
post #68 of 141
I am beginning to think that some things in audio (including this) are subtle, and differences can better be heard in a good room with better equipment.

As an analogy, If I walk into a quiet gym and yell, people will be able to hear my voice clearly and even hear it echo off the walls. If I make this same yell during an action packed Basketball game, hardly a soul would hear me, and those that could wouldn't hear me clearly. In both instances, the Yell is the same, but the results are very different.

I think that poor setups (room, source, equpiment, etc.) have so much noise/distortion that more subtles sounds and changes are undetectable. In better setups, more subtle sounds and changes can be detected.

This could explain why some people say that there is no difference between XYZ abd ABC, and other can hear big differences.

OK, end of ramble...
post #69 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodSonics View Post

I think that poor setups (room, source, equpiment, etc.) have so much noise/distortion that more subtles sounds and changes are undetectable. In better setups, more subtle sounds and changes can be detected.

This could explain why some people say that there is no difference between XYZ abd ABC, and other can hear big differences.

OK, end of ramble...

Not a ramble, but an extremely relevant point, well made.

IME (and IMHO), once you take care of your setup (which includes the things you mention + power supply, cabling, damping, etc.) to the point that your system becomes revealing, then the differences in sonics when changing components is not so subtle.

Still, IME, appreciating the difference or improvement in sonics between one component and another may require extended periods of listening to various kinds of music - and NOT by quick A/B switching.

For example, I recently changed my $15 eBay multi-core glass toslink for a XLO toslink. The differences I first thought were subtle at best. However, on extended listening I began to realize that the XLO toslink produced more natural timbre. In certain instruments, like kettle-drum, the difference was not so subtle. Still, it did require some extended listening to appreciate the sonics of the new part.

End of my rant
post #70 of 141
I think there are legitimate points made on both sides of the debate about the differences various digital/analog converters have on sound quality, even though I tend to lean toward the direction that all properly made DACs should sound the same.

However, one audiophile notion that makes absolutely no sense to me is that there is any audible difference in regards to digital transports. What is the point of digital technology at all if you can have "better" 1's and 0's? If that were true, what is its advantage over analog data?

If I put an expensive CD-Rom drive in my computer versus a cheap one, I don't see "crisper" fonts or more natuaral colors, the data is either transmitted properly or it isn't, there is no in-between.

Unless the drive is clearly malfunctioning, streaming 1's and 0's are all the same. If you compared the most expensive digital transport Cd player hooked up with the most expensive cable to a cheap $60 DVD player and a cheap $5 toslink cable and hooked them both to a pc to compare the data output, I would be willing to bet a whole lot of money they both spit out the same exact data stream, bit for bit.

Think of the chaos it would create in our world if subtle differences in digital data were so common. Billions of computations would be incorrect from servers, mainframes, and PC's. These subtle differences would destroy reliable data transmission.

I don't mean to be insulting about this debate, I am no expert in this field, but common sense tells me that digital data has a different set of rules than analog data.
post #71 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodSonics View Post

I can hear a difference between my Sony 300 CD Changer and my Denon 3930ci. Is there kind of a point of diminshing returns at some point? The Denon has pretty good components and my Prepro's DACS would be used. Would a dedicated player sound much better with Digital Outs?

how do you know [when] your pre-pro's DAC's are being used? by using digital OUT from DVD-3930CI?

I'm using a DVD-3930CI myself, I love it! Although I've been using the dedicated 2ch OUT's for redbook CD's, it sounds pretty good through my Yamaha RX-V1600 pre-pro and three NAD C272 amps (150W X 2 each). Seems to me the 2ch analog output sounds better than the digital (coax) output.
post #72 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacob_coulter View Post

I think there are legitimate points made on both sides of the debate about the differences various digital/analog converters have on sound quality, even though I tend to lean toward the direction that all properly made DACs should sound the same.

However, one audiophile notion that makes absolutely no sense to me is that there is any audible difference in regards to digital transports. What is the point of digital technology at all if you can have "better" 1's and 0's? If that were true, what is its advantage over analog data?

If I put an expensive CD-Rom drive in my computer versus a cheap one, I don't see "crisper" fonts or more natuaral colors, the data is either transmitted properly or it isn't, there is no in-between.

Unless the drive is clearly malfunctioning, streaming 1's and 0's are all the same. If you compared the most expensive digital transport Cd player hooked up with the most expensive cable to a cheap $60 DVD player and a cheap $5 toslink cable and hooked them both to a pc to compare the data output, I would be willing to bet a whole lot of money they both spit out the same exact data stream, bit for bit.

Think of the chaos it would create in our world if subtle differences in digital data were so common. Billions of computations would be incorrect from servers, mainframes, and PC's. These subtle differences would destroy reliable data transmission.

I don't mean to be insulting about this debate, I am no expert in this field, but common sense tells me that digital data has a different set of rules than analog data.

It's called jitter. The 1's and 0's are the same but they arrive either too early or too late. It's an issue that affects all digital data, not just audio. How much an effect it has, this has been argued and studied for 2 decades.
post #73 of 141
All I'll say, is that I've seen so many PATENTLY FALSE claims about audio (green ring around a CD improves the sound, among many other things) that people need to realize that HUMAN HEARING IS NOT UNLIMITED IN ABILITY. Whether CD players are audibly different when not intentionally mal-designed is up for debate, and speakers vary in design so much that the differences are usually pretty well audible. Power cables and the like are so simple that explaining why they can't audibly affect the sound to somebody who thinks they should would be a hopeless endeavor.

CD players are just complicated enough that extremely subtle audible differences "could" exist, though anyone who seems to believe so also seems to lack the rational tools to repeatably confirm their apparent observation.
post #74 of 141
Thread Starter 
You Fellas have been busy posting!

I have enjoyed reading your posts about CD quality. I think I will borrow some of your recomendations...

If I could take it back to the Rega Saturn if you don't mind?

The Saturn arrived today. What a great lookin player.

I will not get into a big review yet. but...DAMN it sounds great out of the box.

While not as great as some of the other CD's mentioned here..
I started with Lyle Lovett: "The Road to Ensenada". It sounds fantastic. The sound stage really opened up. I am not going to say I hear sounds I have never heard just yet but there were a couple of occasions where I believe this to be true. The Guitar picking is much more prominent. It is very obvious, I kid you not.

Next was Valerie Joyce and KD Lang to the same effect. The vocals are just unbelievable with a jet black background. I just don't want to get into too much until later when things are broken in (I want to put the excitement aside and compare to the Pioneer in some testing).

I have only had this set-up for a little over two weeks (Dyn's/NAD's) but it never sounded as good as tonight. The background is so inky black with the instruments coming forward and are so well defined and the bass is very lively.

The Dynaudios sound amazingly crystal clear. They are starting to sound more like the auditions I had before purchase.

Night one but it is clear that a better source will help.

Sorry to side track you Guys! I won't say too much more about it for a couple of weeks. I really need to get all this gear broken in and do some side by side testing and then we can really chit-chat about it.

I am game for more CD thoughts though!
-Rick
post #75 of 141
Now don't you feel silly for spending more than $200 on a CDP?

Glad to hear you're enjoying the new toys. I know there's quite a bit of difference between the two, but the soundstage and presentation of "negative space" are the two things that really stood out at me with the Apollo so I'm not surprised to hear that you're wow'd by those characteristics on the Saturn.

Happy listening.


Scott
post #76 of 141
Yes, if you are using the Digital Outs of the player, then you are using the DACs (Digital - Analog Conversion) in your Prepro to convert the Digital signal for use by your analog amp/speaker.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

how do you know [when] your pre-pro's DAC's are being used? by using digital OUT from DVD-3930CI?
post #77 of 141
CETA, It is too bad that you did not try the Saturn as a replacement CDP in a system you were already familiar with. That way, you could have heard if it was an improvement or not. As it stands, you have upgraded your whole system. That is great, but does not allow you to judge any component separately. No doubt 99.99% of the great sound you are hearing is the speakers and amp.
post #78 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by classic77 View Post

It's called jitter. The 1's and 0's are the same but they arrive either too early or too late. It's an issue that affects all digital data, not just audio. How much an effect it has, this has been argued and studied for 2 decades.

Of course, once the digital gets converted to analog, were are in another territory with the capacitors, opamps, etc. in the signal path.
post #79 of 141
Not to mention level differences, eh?
post #80 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

This may well be a major factor in why they sound better. Older CDs sound much too quiet after hearing newer ones, so much so that I have to raise the volume quite a bit to enjoy them. It is the quieter CDs that sound compressed or "boxed-in" to me, with new ones sounding far more dynamic and "open".

But limited dynamic range is NEVER better. Far better to dial up the volume and profit from the widest dynamic range possible. A symphony would sound lifeless if mastered in the ridiculously overcompressed manner that most pop/rock music is today. And some of those "quiet" CDs are prized today because their dynamic range is intact.
post #81 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

I care about two things: 1) "Sounds good to me." and 2) "Doesn't sound good to me." Why would anything else matter?

Then your point about not needing to spend more than 200$ for a good sounding CD player is meaningless. With this limited set of criteria, it is perfectly possible to justify a 1000$ or even 10000$ CD player "because it sounds good to me". Logically, your position is no more solid than the one that supports the expensive player. Your position may, in fact, be correct, but not because of your reasoning.
post #82 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowclops View Post

All I'll say, is that I've seen so many PATENTLY FALSE claims about audio (green ring around a CD improves the sound, among many other things) that people need to realize that HUMAN HEARING IS NOT UNLIMITED IN ABILITY. Whether CD players are audibly different when not intentionally mal-designed is up for debate, and speakers vary in design so much that the differences are usually pretty well audible. Power cables and the like are so simple that explaining why they can't audibly affect the sound to somebody who thinks they should would be a hopeless endeavor.

CD players are just complicated enough that extremely subtle audible differences "could" exist, though anyone who seems to believe so also seems to lack the rational tools to repeatably confirm their apparent observation.

Indeed!
post #83 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by CETA View Post

I have only had this set-up for a little over two weeks (Dyn's/NAD's) but it never sounded as good as tonight

which NAD's are you using?
post #84 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowclops View Post

All I'll say, is that I've seen so many PATENTLY FALSE claims about audio (green ring around a CD improves the sound, among many other things) that people need to realize that HUMAN HEARING IS NOT UNLIMITED IN ABILITY. Whether CD players are audibly different when not intentionally mal-designed is up for debate, and speakers vary in design so much that the differences are usually pretty well audible. Power cables and the like are so simple that explaining why they can't audibly affect the sound to somebody who thinks they should would be a hopeless endeavor.

CD players are just complicated enough that extremely subtle audible differences "could" exist, though anyone who seems to believe so also seems to lack the rational tools to repeatably confirm their apparent observation.

Some good points here. Bt don't forget that the vast majority of speaker/amp owners lack the tools to confirm their observations about them as well.
post #85 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by classic77 View Post

Some good points here. Bt don't forget that the vast majority of speaker/amp owners lack the tools to confirm their observations about them as well.

They lack ears?
post #86 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovation View Post

Then your point about not needing to spend more than 200$ for a good sounding CD player is meaningless. With this limited set of criteria, it is perfectly possible to justify a 1000$ or even 10000$ CD player "because it sounds good to me". Logically, your position is no more solid than the one that supports the expensive player. Your position may, in fact, be correct, but not because of your reasoning.

You didn't answer the question: What other criteria could there be, and how could they possibly matter?
post #87 of 141
Why shouldn't appearance, exclucivity, a preference for implementation, brand name, and the like carry weight with a buyer. Of anything for that matter. We don't all buy the same dishes, sneakers, and what not.
post #88 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

They lack ears?

Measurement tools and techniques to cofirm what they think their ears are telling them. Your ears might be telling you fibs PULL. Your "masterpiece" recordings might not be as good as you think, they could be trash actually.
post #89 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

You didn't answer the question: What other criteria could there be, and how could they possibly matter?

Reliability
Ease of operation
Warranty
Ease of acquisition
Number of functions
Appearance

Any and/or all of these can be (and for most people are) part of the equation. Your criteria cannot be used to recommend a piece of gear to anyone else if you limit them to the two you've stated. In the first place, no one else can know with certainty why something "sounds good to you" and, in the second place, you've already demonstrated that "what sounds good to you" includes recordings with lesser dynamic range--a sign that your ears are not to be trusted to give unbiased advice to others. All other things being equal, greater dynamic range is ALWAYS better. So, if what "sounds good to you" includes advocacy for increased dynamic compression, then it is a poor reference point. Lastly, as no two people hear exactly alike, then recommending equipment to another person must include verifiable criteria--such as reliability, ease of operation, etc. Not everything in my list will be important to a particular person, but, for most people, at least one of them will be and, unlike "what sounds good to me", each of them (save, perhaps, appearance) is verifiable.
post #90 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by classic77 View Post

Measurement tools and techniques to cofirm what they think their ears are telling them. Your ears might be telling you fibs PULL. Your "masterpiece" recordings might not be as good as you think, they could be trash actually.

Why would anyone need to "confirm" what their ears tell them, as if there were some Platonic ideal of perfect sound to compare it to in the first place? If a piece of equipment and/or a CD sounds great to the person who owns it, nobody else's opinion matters at all. I couldn't possibly care less if my ears are telling me "fibs" if I enjoy the result.
One other thing to consider: Record producers are professionals, they know their jobs well. Everything they do is a concious choice. When they apply dynamic compresion, they do so because they know that it is what the vast majority of listeners/buyers prefer. They really don't give a rodent's backside for the opinions of your tiny "golden-eared" club, nor should they, nor do I.
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