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Do all Toshiba HD-DVD players just stink, or do I just have bad luck?  

post #1 of 120
Thread Starter 
OK so this is how this started:

I own a Samsung LN-S4695D 46" 1080p LCD

I have my PS3 hooked up via HDMI, and have no issues with Blu-ray PQ. None at all.

I decided to get a 1080i A2, (HDMI) and found nasty moire/shimmering in distant scenes with bricks, fences etc (that infamous Mission Impossible 3 chapter 8 staircase shows it off nicely. Yick!)

I put it down to the less-then-great deinterlacer in my TV. I then got myself a 360 HD-DVD drive and had that connected to my TV through my HTPC at 1080p, but didn't like the limited experience there (plus numerous bugs with PowerDVD). HOWEVER, I had no moire/shimmering issues at all.

I figured, ok - time to get the XA2 and have a direct 1080p picture. I receive it today, and guess what? Same moire/shimmering as the A2, though not QUITE as bad! But it's still there!

What's the deal here?

Now, my TV overscans about 2-3%. I'm awaiting a firmware from Samsung to correct this (should have it fixed any day now). Is it possible that the overscan is causing this moire/aliasing, or is that not a valid reason?

I'm desperate to fix this problem because I've been through pretty much EVERY HD-DVD player, bar the A20. I just want this all to work!



TIMESTAMP of below screenshots is : 40mins 30 seconds (Blu-ray version - assume it's the same on HD-DVD).

***EDIT****

HD-DVD SCREENSHOT VIA XA2 HDMI:







BLU-RAY SCREENSHOT via PS3 HDMI







HD-DVD SCREENSHOT





BLU-RAY SCREENSHOT




I just took my XA2 to Best Buy, with my copy of MI:3.

I plugged the player into SEVEN TVs, and EVERY TV exhibited this moire. Every single one.

Toshiba 40" 1080p LCD (can't remember model)
Samsung 40" 1080p LN-S4095
Samsung 40" 1080p LN-T4061F (the new model) with 1:1 Just Scan enabled
Samsung 46" 1080p '''''' 4665 (new model) with 1:1 Just Scan enabled
Samsung 40" 720p (can't remember model)
Pioneer 42" Plasma 720p PDP-4271HD
Sharp 42" 1080p LCD LC-42D62U
post #2 of 120
If I could afford that set, I'd love to buttonhole it with my 'A1 and 'XA1...but I can safely say that, at least with both the G1 players, I've never ever seen anything remotely resembling this issue across three TV sets--a Mits WD-52327, a Samsung HL-S4667W, and a Toshiba 34HD82. The occasional pause and lockup, yes...but actual visual issues, none of any kind.

What's up with the overscan on this particular set, though?
post #3 of 120
William,
I have a brand new MI2 that I will test MI3 on A2 with Samsung HL-S6187W 1080p DLP tonight when I get home. I will also tested on the Mitisu 1000U projector.

Maybe it's the samsung???? Maybe it's the movie, possibly during transfer??? I have no idea. I will let you know tonight after I test it.
post #4 of 120
I meant MI3
post #5 of 120
I am feeding a Pio FHD1 from an XA2 and before that from an XA1 and the PQ is staggeringly good. I can't find a thing wrong. In fact I like the XA2 PQ so much that I just ordered the Sammy BDP 1200 today from CC since it supposedly has a similar implementation as the XA2. Currently the PQ put forth from the XA2 is easily superior to anything else I've tried. JMO. It may be your display....or you may be much more of a perfectionist than me
post #6 of 120
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill C. View Post

If I could afford that set, I'd love to buttonhole it with my 'A1 and 'XA1...but I can safely say that, at least with both the G1 players, I've never ever seen anything remotely resembling this issue across three TV sets--a Mits WD-52327, a Samsung HL-S4667W, and a Toshiba 34HD82. The occasional pause and lockup, yes...but actual visual issues, none of any kind.

What's up with the overscan on this particular set, though?

Yeah overscan sucks, but there's a firmware available for it now, to correct it over HDMI (no overscan on the VGA port, but there will always be some over component apparently).
post #7 of 120
Thread Starter 
You know, the more I use this player the more I dislike it. The fan noise it makes is truly obnoxious. It's one of those really high-pitched sounds that makes me want to gouge my eyes out.

I was so excited for this player, and now I'm really, really let down.

The PQ really is excellent, but the moire/shimmering that plagues it really drives me nuts, be it my display or the player. I'm guessing since I had none of these issues with the 360 HD-DVD drive connected, that it's probably the player.
post #8 of 120
eek.. the overscan is a likely culprit, with it your not getting a 1080p match to the 1080p or 1080i output of the HD DVD player. Your display is getting a 1920 x 1080 grid of pixels and is converting it to its effective native resolution of 97-98% of that or a weirdo native resolution. That would look soft and would generate artifacts.

The HD XA2' s Reon is giving you a nice 1920 x 1080 image and your poor display is trying to zoom that up a few percent..... Can't you do a native or 1 to 1 pixel match mode?

http://www.retrevo.com/search?q=Sams...=review+manual

found the manual on this page

you might want to check on your DNR and film mode settings on your display.

I didn't see anything in the manual on overscan or any native or 1:1 pixel matching mode.

Hope the firmware update for the display helps.
post #9 of 120
I'm kind of surprised the PS3 (apparently) doesn't do the same thing, though, especially if both machines are outputting the same basic signal type...
post #10 of 120
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

eek.. the overscan is a likely culprit, with it your not getting a 1080p match to the 1080p or 1080i output of the HD DVD player. Your display is getting a 1920 x 1080 grid of pixels and is converting it to its effective native resolution of 97-98% of that or a weirdo native resolution. That would look soft and would generate artifacts.

The HD XA2' s Reon is giving you a nice 1920 x 1080 image and your poor display is trying to zoom that up a few percent..... Can't you do a native or 1 to 1 pixel match mode?

http://www.retrevo.com/search?q=Sams...=review+manual

found the manual on this page

you might want to check on your DNR and film mode settings on your display.

I didn't see anything in the manual on overscan or any native or 1:1 pixel matching mode.

Hope the firmware update for the display helps.

Yeah, I should have that upgrade soon. I really hope it helps, as that moire is driving me nuts. It's not always visible, but when it is it's just awful.
post #11 of 120
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill C. View Post

I'm kind of surprised the PS3 (apparently) doesn't do the same thing, though, especially if both machines are outputting the same basic signal type...

That's what's so interesting about it. I have no such issues with the PS3.
post #12 of 120
Yes they all stink. Your best bet is to stick with Blu-Ray and run your car over all your HD-DVDs, or else they'll give your pets cooties...

(seriously though, what is up with the inflammatory thread title? C'mon now...)
post #13 of 120
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyharmonies View Post

Yes they all stink. Your best bet is to stick with Blu-Ray and run your car over all your HD-DVDs, or else they'll give your pets cooties...

(seriously though, what is up with the inflammatory thread title? C'mon now...)

To be fair, I did say it could be me with bad luck.

Pictures coming in a sec...

Please understand that this my extreme frustration talking here.
post #14 of 120
I never go to the BluRay sight....but do the HD people go over there and do this kind of crap too?
post #15 of 120
Thread Starter 
And here are the pictures. What you are seeing on that wall is EXACTLY what I see. I did a close-up so you can see it more closely. What the heck is going on here?



post #16 of 120
William, why don't you take the XA2 to a friends place and a different monitor and see if you get the same problems. If you do, your player is defective, if not your display is defective.

As for the fan noise, I am sitting 5 ft from the player and can't hear it during a movie. But when silent I can. Currently my XA2 sits on top of my Sammy BDP 1000 (soon to be 1200) and fan noise is same for both - same pitch and same level. FWIW.

What movie are your stills from? You do realize IF what you are seeing others were as well the XA2 would be a flop. The BDP 1000 failed for far minor issues than what you claim with the XA2.
post #17 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by plazman View Post

What movie are your stills from? You do realize IF what you are seeing others were as well the XA2 would be a flop. The BDP 1000 failed for far minor issues than what you claim with the XA2.

That is from MI 3. I have the same moire with an A2 on a 58in panny plasma. Looks exactly the same.
post #18 of 120
Holy cow, those pictures are horrible; I'm with you, I'd be upset. I, too, have a PS3 and a HD-A2, and I've never experienced anything like the picture you're getting from either one of the sources. I agree with Plazman, try a different monitor, since my vote would be that the monitor's the problem. It is weird, as you said, that the PS3 doesn't have this problem. Therefore, my question is, how are you feeding the HDMI signal into the monitor? Does the TV have 2 HDMI inputs (if so, switch the input and see if that's the problem)? Is it going through an HDMI switch (if so, try a different input on the switch)? If those don't work, definitely take it to a friend's house and try a different monitor. If you decide to sell the XA2, PM me (unless you decide that it is the problem ).
post #19 of 120
Thread Starter 
OK. Here's the deal.

I just took my XA2 to Best Buy, with my copy of MI:3.

I plugged the player into SIX TVs, and EVERY TV exhibited this moire. Every single one.

Toshiba 40" 1080p LCD (can't remember model)
Samsung 40" 1080p LN-S4095
Samsung 40" 1080p LN-T4061F (the new model) with Just Scan 1:1 enabled
Samsung 46" 1080p '''''' 4665 (new model) with Just Scan 1:1 enabled
Samsung 40" 720p (can't remember model)
Pioneer 42" Plasma 720p PDP-4271HD
Sharp 42" 1080p LCD LC-42D62U


----

So, someone has to be able to explain this one.

In the name of science, I just bought MI:3 on Blu-ray at Best Buy, for an extortionate $29.99. And here are the results:






--------

So you tell me. It's NOT my display. The stairs at the start of chapter 8 look FANTASTIC in Blu-ray. Not a shimmer to be seen. On the XA2/A2 they're shimmering like crazy.

Only explanation: VC1 on HD-DVD vs MPEG2 on the Blu-ray disc, unless anyone else has any other ideas...
post #20 of 120
Thread Starter 
Note also the difference in sharpness in the text of ROME, Italy between Blu-ray and HD-DVD. The Blu-ray picture has less "jaggies" on the words.

What's going on here?
post #21 of 120
what firmware are you running on the toshiba?
post #22 of 120
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by youknowryan View Post

what firmware are you running on the toshiba?

It came with 1.0 which I tested, and then I upgraded to 1.3 for the rest of the testing.
post #23 of 120
Thread Starter 
I'm updating the original post to include the side-by-side screenshots for easy comparison.
post #24 of 120
i checked my copy of mi3 on hd dvd and it does have the same issues as yours 100%. i never noticed them until you pointed out what they are and where to look.

it's NOT the player, it the disc itself. the encoding is the issue with the vc1.

i've seen a number of hd dvd and br titles from warner and paramount side by side and this is the first time that the hd dvd version does not look as good as or better than the br version. my experience has been that the br versions are not as good. this proves rules ar emeant to be broken.

keep your player it's fine... bad encodes happen on both side of the format fence.... think 5th ELement.
post #25 of 120
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by youknowryan View Post

i checked my copy of mi3 on hd dvd and it does have the same issues as yours 100%. i never noticed them until you pointed out what they are and where to look.

it's NOT the player, it the disc itself. the encoding is the issue with the vc1.

i've seen a number of hd dvd and br titles from warner and paramount side by side and this is the first time that the hd dvd version does not look as good as or better than the br version. my experience has been that it's the opposite way around.

keep your player it's fine... bad encodes happen on btoh side of the format war.

What's very odd is that I had not a single one of these issues with the HD-DVD 360 addon connected to my HTPC, which makes me believe it is indeed the player, though perhaps it can be fixed in a firmware update?
post #26 of 120
have you called toshiba? it should not take 25 repsonses to realize you might have a defective unit. Have you tried playing a different MI3 disk? a couple different ones?
post #27 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

What's very odd is that I had not a single one of these issues with the HD-DVD 360 addon connected to my HTPC, which makes me believe it is indeed the player, though perhaps it can be fixed in a firmware update?


it's not the drive thought it might be the firmware on the drive or the firmware on the logic baord itself. it's no doubt an issue that can be fixed via software. it is not bad hardware to be sure.

my point is that your xa2 is functioning fine and there are no hardware problems.

like i said, report this to toshiba so they know about it. they have made fixes for specific movies and encoding formats error before and i am sure they will be glad to do so again.

we're early adopters and as such we get to deal with this kind of crap... it's the price one pays to be on the cutting edge.
post #28 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

have you called toshiba? it should not take 25 repsonses to realize you might have a defective unit. Have you tried playing a different MI3 disk? a couple different ones?


mine does the same thing. is my unit also defective? the a2 he had before the xa2 is also doing it was that unit also defective? this is a specific piece of software acting badly.

when i put bullitt (the sd version) in my player there's a slight hiss when things are not loud on screen. this is not my HD DVD player, but rather poor mastering on the disc. if i put that disc in a friend's hd-a2 he will have the same bug (i know, i tried it), it's the disc, not the player's hardware.

in this case it's the mastering of mi3 and the onboard software of the toshiba made players that's causing that. i cannot say it enough, if they are aware of this, toshiba will issue a fix as they have been know to do.
post #29 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by youknowryan View Post

mine does the same thing. is my unit also defective? the a2 he had before the xa2 is also doing it was that unit also defective? this is a specific piece of software acting badly.

when i put bullitt (the sd version) in my player there's a slight hiss when things are not loud on screen. this is not my HD DVD player, but rather poor mastering on the disc. if i put that disc in a friend's hd-a2 he will have the same bug (i know, i tried it), it's the disc, not the player's hardware.

in this case it's the mastering of mi3 and the onboard software of the toshiba made players that's causing that. i cannot say it enough, if they are aware of this, toshiba will issue a fix as they have been know to do.

woops..sorry...i did not see your earlier post...i just get an attitude with topics that start out like ths one did. better to just ignoe them maybe.
post #30 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

woops..sorry...i did not see your earlier post...


no worries. i've done that also.
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