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ProjectionDesign Action! model three 1080

post #1 of 19
4/13/07 at 2:11pm
Thread Starter 
I saw this projector the other day and was -- other than the price tag -- vewry impressed with its picture quality. Although I need more time on it before truthfully considering it as my next projector I am interested in feedback from those with experience with (i) ProjectionDesign in terms of customer support and (ii) this projector.

Although I would obviously hav eit professionally calibrated I am interested in things such as:

-- CMS for primaries OTHER THAN through the Crystallio II processor (which I do not want as I am a Lumagen RadianceXD man)

-- D65/greayscale calibration out of the box

-- Hardware upgradability as this is/was rumoured

-- Software/firmware upgradability

-- Thoughts after extensive vieweing

-- And all other good stuff....

One thing that I found very interesting -- and I assume that it is technology related -- is that from approximately 2 feet away I could see pixels on 92" diagnol screen yet when I saw the RS-1 I could see no pixels from 6 inches away on a 150" diagnoal screen...

The one nagging issue is the rate of technological change and hence the issue of hardware upgradability...is this the tiem to spend 30K on a projector or would it better to wait another two to three years and get an interim projector on the theory that by then we will be more in a world of "diminishing improvements/returns"...anyone want to hazard a guess..

TIA...
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post #2 of 19
4/14/07 at 7:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

I saw this projector the other day and was -- other than the price tag -- vewry impressed with its picture quality. Although I need more time on it before truthfully considering it as my next projector I am interested in feedback from those with experience with (i) ProjectionDesign in terms of customer support and (ii) this projector.

Although I would obviously hav eit professionally calibrated I am interested in things such as:

-- CMS for primaries OTHER THAN through the Crystallio II processor (which I do not want as I am a Lumagen RadianceXD man)

-- D65/greayscale calibration out of the box

-- Hardware upgradability as this is/was rumoured

-- Software/firmware upgradability

-- Thoughts after extensive vieweing

-- And all other good stuff....

One thing that I found very interesting -- and I assume that it is technology related -- is that from approximately 2 feet away I could see pixels on 92" diagnol screen yet when I saw the RS-1 I could see no pixels from 6 inches away on a 150" diagnoal screen...

The one nagging issue is the rate of technological change and hence the issue of hardware upgradability...is this the tiem to spend 30K on a projector or would it better to wait another two to three years and get an interim projector on the theory that by then we will be more in a world of "diminishing improvements/returns"...anyone want to hazard a guess..

TIA...

I've not seen it but I can say one thing...based on things the last four years or so unless you have the money to not ask the question buying SOTA is bad. If you do then you will be enjoying some of the best images on the planet as you go. I don't know about the concept of interum projectors. It really assumes that you know what is coming ,how good it will be and when, to judge that it is time to wait.

An example is that it seems very likely that we will have 4K projectors within a few months. They will require an internal scaler incredible panel alignment etc to come through but who knows ?

Just so you know I'm in the same boat as you. I love my set up few things can touch it but I'm itching for something new.
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post #3 of 19
4/14/07 at 8:00am
Thread Starter 
Art, you hit the nail on the head...the initial $30K is not the issue...the issue is, at this price point, when to pull the trigger as I want something that will be competitive and wont result in the "upgrade itch" for at least 2 years as I am not willing to spen $30K every year...that said, the image was damn nice, at least to my eyes, albeit the fan was noisier than I would like!

As far as interim is concerened by that I mean purchasing the flavour of the year for +/- $10K every year until things progress such that the year-to-year improvements/developments are "smaller"...
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post #4 of 19
4/14/07 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

Art, you hit the nail on the head...the initial $30K is not the issue...the issue is, at this price point, when to pull the trigger as I want something that will be competitive and wont result in the "upgrade itch" for at least 2 years as I am not willing to spen $30K every year...that said, the image was damn nice, at least to my eyes, albeit the fan was noisier than I would like!

As far as interim is concerened by that I mean purchasing the flavour of the year for +/- $10K every year until things progress such that the year-to-year improvements/developments are "smaller"...

I wish you luck...really. I have the feeling that we are still in for several years of significant changes every six months or so.

Art
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post #5 of 19
4/14/07 at 8:14am
Joel,

As far as I know you need the CII to drive the Model III. The Crystalio is not re-badged but it has additional user interface and functionality built in to it to control the projector from within the VP. It is done exclusively to the CIIs that come bundled with this projector.

You do get regular firmware updates for the Model III on the Crystalio II website as well.


If you are a Lumagen Radiance man then it is maybe better to look at the stand alone CINEO version of the Projector with additional 500 lumens. You can then use the Lumagen and and do your thing.


This projector is very expensive for a single chip projector but it is due to the high grade cinema lenses (choice of 6 lenses) just like the Runco RS-1100 Ultra and a chassis that is built to run 24/7!

You will also get the option of upgrading your color wheels as the technology and materials get better along with increasing the speed etc. PD is working on a 10 bit DVI connector and they are also researching HDMI 1.3


The JVC is much more cheaper and a safer bet if you get the upgrade bug on short bursts. If you are willing to wait 3 years for the dust to settle down with both software availability with the highest possible resolution and the 3rd generation (more stable) of 1080p 3 chippers to come down to affordable prices and reasonable sizes then the PD unit is a good bet. You should go for it.

If you feel that spending that amount is not justified at this point then the choice is clear ... JVC RS1 / HD1.


The ProjectionDesign Model III with Crystalio II is a very good combination. The hard part is that it is very hard to find a dealer who carries it and has it on display! ProjectionDesign will be big in the next few years. They have been making projectors for manufacturers over the years but now they have moved on to selling their products to consumers as well as manufacturers.
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post #6 of 19
4/14/07 at 9:06am
I'd say you're better off with something like the RS1 and then upgrade every 2 years if the urge strikes. DLP will show the pixels very precisely, but shouldn't from a distance. I just got in the RS1, so I guess I'm off to buy an HD-DVD player. The image is fantastic, but up close, it looks like the image is made up of tiny sparkles of light that shift and dance as you move, rather than DLP's steady, precise pixel structure. Not sure what causes that , but the overall picture is magnificent! My partner was swooning as he dialed it in. IMO, a product that cost 2-5 times should do everything equal or better, but I'm not sure that product exists
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post #7 of 19
4/15/07 at 7:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

IMO, a product that cost 2-5 times should do everything equal or better, but I'm not sure that product exists

I'm confident that it does not.

Art
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post #8 of 19
4/15/07 at 8:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haroon Malik View Post

Joel,

As far as I know you need the CII to drive the Model III. The Crystalio is not re-badged but it has additional user interface and functionality built in to it to control the projector from within the VP. It is done exclusively to the CIIs that come bundled with this projector.

You do get regular firmware updates for the Model III on the Crystalio II website as well.


If you are a Lumagen Radiance man then it is maybe better to look at the stand alone CINEO version of the Projector with additional 500 lumens. You can then use the Lumagen and and do your thing.


This projector is very expensive for a single chip projector but it is due to the high grade cinema lenses (choice of 6 lenses) just like the Runco RS-1100 Ultra and a chassis that is built to run 24/7!

You will also get the option of upgrading your color wheels as the technology and materials get better along with increasing the speed etc. PD is working on a 10 bit DVI connector and they are also researching HDMI 1.3


The JVC is much more cheaper and a safer bet if you get the upgrade bug on short bursts. If you are willing to wait 3 years for the dust to settle down with both software availability with the highest possible resolution and the 3rd generation (more stable) of 1080p 3 chippers to come down to affordable prices and reasonable sizes then the PD unit is a good bet. You should go for it.

If you feel that spending that amount is not justified at this point then the choice is clear ... JVC RS1 / HD1.


The ProjectionDesign Model III with Crystalio II is a very good combination. The hard part is that it is very hard to find a dealer who carries it and has it on display! ProjectionDesign will be big in the next few years. They have been making projectors for manufacturers over the years but now they have moved on to selling their products to consumers as well as manufacturers.

Haroon:

Thanks for the heads up that the Action! model three 1080p may only worl with the "bundled Crustallio video processor"...I will have to double check this as the loacl dealer who demoed this projector for me said it could be order both WITH/WITHOUT the video processor...I will, of course, let you know what I discover.

Thanks also for the heads up onthe CINEO version...I will see if anyone local carries one.

As far as which way I am leaning I have to admit that I am leaning towards passing on this projector at this time as I do not think, as Art pointed out, it a good (as there never will be a perfect) time to invest in a projector at this price point given the continuing advances in technology...that said, I am going to take a nother look and perhaps even bring it home for a weekend before making deciding...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I wish you luck...really. I have the feeling that we are still in for several years of significant changes every six months or so.

Art

As you noted in youyr post to me I think that WE BOTH need luck as we appear to be in similar boats...ohe well, at least it is fun, albeit a little too time consuming, deciding which is the best course to pursue!
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post #9 of 19
4/16/07 at 8:43am
Quote:


I wish you luck...really. I have the feeling that we are still in for several years of significant changes every six months or so.

I highly doubt this. I think small changes that marketing gurus WANT you to think are significant - sure. I'm enjoying my dVision 1080p now, and can't see changing projectors for 4 years at least. In fact, if DPI does do a hardware upgrade, I'll go that route and stick with this platform for the foreseeable future. Guests over Sat. night watching Children of Men and some HDTV were stunned at the picture.

Quote:


The one nagging issue is the rate of technological change and hence the issue of hardware upgradability...is this the tiem to spend 30K on a projector or would it better to wait another two to three years and get an interim projector on the theory that by then we will be more in a world of "diminishing improvements/returns"...anyone want to hazard a guess.

You can play this game forever. And you need to contact Jason here at AVS for a price.
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post #10 of 19
4/17/07 at 2:58am
Thread Starter 
Thanks Craig...will do...
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post #11 of 19
4/17/07 at 3:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

I saw this projector the other day and was -- other than the price tag -- vewry impressed with its picture quality. Although I need more time on it before truthfully considering it as my next projector I am interested in feedback from those with experience with (i) ProjectionDesign in terms of customer support and (ii) this projector.

I have the Cineo 3+ 1080 which is virtually identical. PD's customer support is superb - I have direct contact with the designers of the projector to discuss my requirements and they were quick to respond to issues I raised.

Quote:


-- CMS for primaries OTHER THAN through the Crystallio II processor (which I do not want as I am a Lumagen RadianceXD man)

There is no CMS in the device - you will need to use a scaler. The colour control on the projector can be used to over/undersaturate all primaries at the same time. When I measured the Cineo I found RED and BLUE oversaturated compared to Rec.709 and GREEN slightly undersaturated. I will use the Radiance for CMS once it's available.

I did not take the Crystalio as I already use a Lumagen which gives me 1080/48 for film which is all I need.


Quote:


-- D65/greayscale calibration out of the box

Out of the box, greyscale was quite linear but it was not D65 in my room. The projector calibrates well and I have 10-100IRE +/- 2dE @ D65

Quote:


-- Hardware upgradability as this is/was rumoured

No idea.

Quote:


-- Software/firmware upgradability

Firmwares are released. There was one released recently with one of the fixes I requested.

Quote:


-- Thoughts after extensive vieweing

It's a great projector with DLP limitations, eg contrast ratio. Rainbows are visible if you try to find them but I rarely notice them during viewing. The image is razor sharp, colours are very close to Rec.709, greyscale can be calibrated very accurately. There's a lot to like with this projector.

-- And all other good stuff....

Quote:


One thing that I found very interesting -- and I assume that it is technology related -- is that from approximately 2 feet away I could see pixels on 92" diagnol screen yet when I saw the RS-1 I could see no pixels from 6 inches away on a 150" diagnoal screen...

The PD's are exceptionally sharp and will reveal the pixel structure. The RS-1 is DILA, so it's a different technology?

Quote:


The one nagging issue is the rate of technological change and hence the issue of hardware upgradability...is this the tiem to spend 30K on a projector or would it better to wait another two to three years and get an interim projector on the theory that by then we will be more in a world of "diminishing improvements/returns"...anyone want to hazard a guess..

This was a decision I also had to make. I wasn't prepared to spend the $50k-$100k on the high-end 3-chip models (Titans/Sim2/etc) for what are essentially small steps up from the PQ of the PD 1-chip machines. The price of the PD is a comfortable spot for me to live for a year or two while we wait for truly large jumps in picture quality to become available at more reasonable prices...

Mark
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post #12 of 19
4/17/07 at 7:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I highly doubt this. I think small changes that marketing gurus WANT you to think are significant - sure. I'm enjoying my dVision 1080p now, and can't see changing projectors for 4 years at least. In fact, if DPI does do a hardware upgrade, I'll go that route and stick with this platform for the foreseeable future. Guests over Sat. night watching Children of Men and some HDTV were stunned at the picture.
You can play this game forever. And you need to contact Jason here at AVS for a price.

Craig,
I agree that one needs to make a move and enjoy it and not get frozen by waiting but trust me we are going to see lots more contrast, light output and resolution from various models by CEDIA. I consider these very ,very significant changes.

Art
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post #13 of 19
4/17/07 at 7:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Craig,
I agree that one needs to make a move and enjoy it and not get frozen by waiting but trust me we are going to see lots more contrast, light output and resolution from various models by CEDIA. I consider these very ,very significant changes.

Art

But will there be the lumens needed to drive a large screen as well as right now the major advances in contrast seem to be on low lumens machines...

Mark
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post #14 of 19
4/17/07 at 7:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post

But will there be the lumens needed to drive a large screen as well as right now the major advances in contrast seem to be on low lumens machines...

Mark

The $64,000 question ! The poop is that the 4K projector will have around 2000 ANSI lumens and more contrast than any digital projector except the RS1. But questions remain regarding internal scaling of SD and HD to 4K, panel alignment (which was terrible on the SONY 4K unit) lots of unknowns.

See Mark, I bet on many significant improvements but not on who will get them first , in what projectors or in what combinations. I just know that DLP will have to answer and Sony will have to answer JVC.

Art
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post #15 of 19
4/17/07 at 9:15am
Changes will always be coming - both real and the ones imagined by the marketing gurus. In the mean time, while we sort out the latest and greatest up and coming projector hype from reality, I'll enjoy my dVision 1080p with as many friends and family members as I can. You can save money by not buying anything, but you can't save the time your missing right now wowing your friends with spectacular HD DVD / Blu Ray / HDTV watching experiences!!

Man - " Planet Earth " on Discovery HD looks amazing in 1080p!!
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post #16 of 19
4/17/07 at 9:28am
Quote:


The $64,000 question ! The poop is that the 4K projector will have around 2000 ANSI lumens and more contrast than any digital projector except the RS1. But questions remain regarding internal scaling of SD and HD to 4K, panel alignment (which was terrible on the SONY 4K unit) lots of unknowns.

See Mark, I bet on many significant improvements but not on who will get them first , in what projectors or in what combinations. I just know that DLP will have to answer and Sony will have to answer JVC.

I'll be interested to see what 4K machines sell for. Right now I'm not interested in higher resolution projectors. I'm more interested in getting every movie I like out on a hi def disk of one kind or the other in 1080p to match the resolution of the current consumer state of the art. It's still the source material that is the hold up. Source material resolution has been the weak link for a couple of years now actually. Hi Def looked good on my NEC HT1000 XGA machine. HD DVD / HDTV looks spectacular on my 1080p machine now. But there isn't enough of it available - yet!
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post #17 of 19
4/17/07 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

The $64,000 question !


Let's hope it's not a $64,000 answer!

Mark
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post #18 of 19
4/18/07 at 6:12am
Thread Starter 
Mark_H, many thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts with me (as well as the rest of us)...nice seeing a fellow HitchHiker on this side of the pond...
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post #19 of 19
4/18/07 at 6:30am
Joel - always a pleasure.

Mark
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