Mid Priced Transport or Dedicated CD?

You will soon be bombarded by conflicting opinions on the likelihood/possibility of any two DACs sounding different...but that's just a friendly heads up...

The only way to know for sure will be to do some home auditioning and see if you hear a difference. Then decide whether or not the difference (if you hear one) is worth the price tag.

FWIW, I've flipped back and forth between the DACs in my B&K processor (granted, it's not the most exotic pro ever made, but I think it's a respectable unit) and the DACs in a Rega CDP (and the DACs in an older Denon universal player). I think they all sound a little different.


Scott

The DAC's in your Halcro are capable of doing entirely different things than the ones in a CDP. Do you know the model used by them?

Nope.

Well, I guess this is an indication that Chu Gai et al. have finally gotten to me, but...just out of curiosity, did you notice/measure any difference in output levels between the two? I know that I have somewhere in the neighborhood of a 5-6db difference between the Denon and the B&K.


Scott

I wasn't looking to 'get to you' Scott only pointing something out that is matter of fact when it comes to output levels and continues to be demonstrated in periodicals when they do measurements. Even if you're going to do the comparisons sighted as most do, at the very least make sure the volumes are the same. Otherwise, it's like 2 cars being timed for the 1/4 mile, but one car has got a 500 foot head start.

Just for the record, I didn't mean that in a bad way. I think it's a valid and often ignored/unknown factor to be considered. I was really surprised to see the differences in levels even via SPL meter. I'm not ready to sign up for the "objectivist" newsletter quite yet, but...well...I'm still learning.


Hmm. Don't know if there's anything funky about the Halcro in's. Interesting though that you seemed to prefer the Denon's DACs. Then again, that player is no slouch in it's own right.


Scott

I'd bounce your findings off Halcro. Maybe you can get someone on the phone.

Objectivists don't deny there are differences. They just look to level the playing field a bit. In another thread Scott, where someone is talking about the Lyndorf CD player, testing results measured an output over 5 volts. Now, CD standard is 2, so... Manufacturers play all sorts of games. Many many years ago, Linn's turntable rotated just a small, wee bit faster than spec. Nothing at all that'd make voices sound like Alvin and the Chipmunks, but just ever so much to give the faintest difference. Unfortunately it wasn't fast enough to make Stairway to Heaven end any faster

Yeah, I saw that. After all the comparisons I've done in the last few months, I have to say that it doesn't really surprise me any more. I would wholeheartedly submit that there are noticeable differences between CPs "out of the box", but would also have to admit that at least some of that comes from gain differences. I've never heard one personally, but given the voltage difference (what did that translate into...like 4-5db?), the Lyndorf certainly seems to be an example of that.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, imagine how much fun a slightly slower turntable would be on In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida...


Scott

I have a Denon DVD-5910 used for both analog and digital output to a Meridian 861 and an Ayre C-5xe dedicated 2-channel universal player.

Here is how I have them routed:

Ayre C-5xe (CD/SACD/DVD-A 2-channel) --> Ayre K-1xe (Pre-Amplifier) --> Ayre MX-R (Monoblocks)

Denon DVD-5910 (CD/SACD/DVD-A/HDCD 5.1-channel - used as a 2-channel transport, and as a DAC for multichannel SACD/DVD-A) --> Meridian 861 (Preprocessor) --> Ayre K-1xe (using unity gain) --> Ayre MX-R

I don't think you will do better than either the 3930ci or the Halcro Dacs with a CD player at $1000. Your setup is great unless you really push it to a much higher plateau IMO, and even the returns you will see off that without all dedicated gear is likely inconsequential. I would save your money for something more consequential, like speaker upgrades, etc.

I love my Ayre setup, but if I knew I was going to get the Meridian 861, I might not have made my setup contain both two channel and surround dedicated gear. The Ayre gear does seem to offer more dimensionality and space between the instruments (I can hear more acoustical ambience through the dedicated two channel Ayre gear even when it is turned down significantly lower than the Meridian/Denon gear). On the other hand, it doesn't have HDCD, so when I compare HDCD encoded material, while there is less dimensionality through the surround gear, it does reveal more detail in the music, at least with HDCD material IMO (which is mostly what I have been using it for). When I was comparing the Denon to the Ayre last year sometime (if anyone remembers that thread...), I was actually surprised that it sounded so grainy compared to the Ayre C-5xe. The differences between the Meridian 861 and Ayre C-5xe is much more subtle.

It is one of those situations where you won't really notice a huge difference anyway unless you really strain to do so, and even then, it is arguable whether you would actually enjoy one more than the other if you didn't know what you were missing between the two. Those Meridian 861 DACs are so incredible in and of themselves as well that the differences might be HDCD more than anything else if Denon passes the digital signal with HDCD decoded in the bitstream after passing it through the HDCD filter... Ultimately, when I sit back and enjoy the music, instead of critically trying to compare components, the minutiae fade away, and the music is all that's left.

Another consideration is whether you have some kind of DSP or room correction in the preprocessor. That is a major reason I probably wouldn't have gotten separates as well as surround gear if I knew where I would eventually end up. The benefits of the room correction as to opposed to the sound with it off is definitely nice, but it is still less dimensional, so I'm not upset that I own both, i.e. both have their trade-offs and I could be happy with either one or the other and both. I would definitely benefit the most by better speakers over upgrading anything else in my system again at this point (though I'm still blown away by the dCS stack I heard last year, and I didn't expect to be because I believed it was all overpriced hype - now I just think it is overpriced but I no longer believe it is hype ).

I notice that most balanced outputs of CD players are around 4 volts. Is this against the standard? I'm just interested to know.

Also if a one cd player is louder than another could this not be regarded as some sort of advantage? Ie the amplifier doesn't have to work as hard?

We ran out of this months issues. Maybe next month? LOL

You have to try printing more than three issues a month

Maybe you could just teach me the secret handshake and we'll see how it goes from there...


Scott

It's drinking the "denial" Kool Aid that gets you on the list

I try not to have contempt prior to investigation, for either side of the argument... Though I admit, I think there are nut cases on both sides of the fence.

Amen brother.

Wait...I'm not one of the nut jobs, am I?

The thing I find interesting is that once you get past the personalities and writing styles, many of the people here are actually saying the same thing. It seems like the *real* hot button is the price tag associated with the various players.


Scott

No, Scott, that is not it. It is the unfounded claims that some make based on flawed protocols that gets some going, me for one.

Yeah, that is certainly a more fundamental rub, and it's a very understandable one...especially when the price tag implies that it's capable of turning poop into gold.



Scott

Whoever invents the device that turns poop into gold is going to be a very rich man indeed, err, or woman, make that a rich person...

What about unfounded claims of speakers? If I was to come on here and say the soundstage of one pair of speakers was better than another, then no-one would even raise an eyebrow. But there is no way to prove soundstage in speakers...Well is there? Isn't it unfounded? I would have probably compared them with the most flawed sighted, non-level matched subjective test but still no-one would try and deny my claims.

But if I said the soundstage of a CD player was better than another......Well hold on to your hat and get ready for at least a 300 post long thread.

What do you mean prove? By an numbers? Certainly can be supported by DBT comparisons of speakers.
CD players don't create soundstage and don't alter the signal that could affect soundstage, phase, amplitude. That is in the recording signal chain. Speakers reproduce them differently because of their different response to signals that are identical.

How we come to be so politically correct Man used to and can refer to humans in general. Now we need something more.

Yep!


Can it? What speaker(s), listener(s) and other pieces of equipment? Are you implying that CD players in every single conceivable DBT test cannot?


Different CD players have Frequency Response, THD, S/N Ratio and Channel Separation differences for example (albiet very small compared to speakers) so how can the signals be identical?

http://nadelectronics.com/products/c...D-Player/specs

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/a35/a35cd.html <----Then click on specs.

1) No, because it's balanced.
2) It might but at the very least, it ensures there's an unambigous audible difference. If the listener doesn't know there's nothing more than a simple level change, they can attribute that difference to whatever they want. Factor in manufacturer and review propoganda and your guess is as good as mine as to what they'll choose.
Consider for a moment the old Coke vs. Pepsi challenge. Pepsi is sweeter than Coke and during sipping tests, people tended to prefer by a small margin the sweeter drink. But not all.
I don't know about the amp working harder. All amps have different tolerances to varying input voltages and that's something you've got to check with the manufacturer. It's certainly not unknown to drive an amp into clipping if you've grossly exceeded that number or create the impression of increased or reduced 'dynamic range' because of this. Of course, European amps don't have to work harder. They've got several weeks of government mandated vacation periods. The Mexican ones I hear take a lot of siestas. Italian ones break for a few hours for lunch. It's all so cosmopolitan.


They're not. Consider though that manufacturer specs are typically abused and misunderstood and aren't designed to inform so much as sway. It's like when a new model receiver comes out and it's got 10 extra watts. Suddenly people feel their old receivers just aren't up to snuff.

Well, speaker makers don't assign such numbers as it would be meaningless since soundstage varies from recording to recording and recording methods.




Certainly. Speakers are what recreates the soundstage, their design, placements and the brains interpretation of the changes from speaker to speaker. Hold the speaker, room, recording constant, change the other components, no one has been able to demonstrate that soundstage was altered due to components alone.



Yes, they do have different measurements. Unfortunately, or fortunately, those specs are below detection range already and they are not what causes soundstage difference. What causes them is left/right channel phase changes of the signal and level changes of those signals that create the soundstage. that is the amount of an instruments timing and level between the two channels, not an overall frequency response that affects both channels equally.

Perhaps if one channel has a grossly different frequency response, that may shift the soundstage permanently for all signals.

You should invest a few $$ in one of these CDs:

http://www.philomel.com/

Musical Illusions and Paradoxes for one. Diana Deutsch is a well known researcher in the acoustics world. Most interesting how sound can be moved by phase alterations, hence soundstage perception.

I wasn't implying that any of those measurement differences would affect soundstage (it can't be measured in speakers either), just that your quote that the signals were identical was indeed wrong.

There are some articles that mention that as little as 0.25db especially with pink noise can be detected, and with some players in the region of +-0.5db....well.

http://www.audioholics.com/education...itivity-part-1
http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/EARS.htm

Here's an interesting article about jitter as well for those who want to read it:

http://members.chello.nl/~m.heijlige...as/jitter.html

And lots of interesting stuff about DAC design from the same source:

http://members.chello.nl/%7em.heijli...tml/dactop.htm

They seem to very much prefer tubed outputs due to he absence of any higher-order harmonics. I guess this relates to speaker amplification as well.

The specs you linked to does not cover phase shift between channels nor their ability to reproduce the recorded levels properly or between channels to affect soundstage. No reason why those CD players would not pass the phases and channel differences properly. Channel separation has no bearing on it.


I am familiar with the psychoacoustic data. But, one must know how those data were gathered, under what conditions. Perhaps headphones were used, not speakers in a room? Perhaps they used isolation booths like when you have a hearing test? In reality, that is how those are arrived and have a citation for it:

Florentine, Mary, et al 'Level Discrimination as a Function of Level for Tones from .25 to 16kHz. Journal of Acoustic Society of America, 81(5) May 1987, pg 1528-1541.

Then, there is that very special signal, pink noise, a very sensitive signal, unlike music. Music has a much higher JND and there is an AES conference paper on that too in case you are interested in buying it from AES.


The, yet another ringer in the equation of detection is the bandwidth of the signal difference. Is it 1 octave wide? 1/3 Octave? More? That has a profound impact:
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_crit.htm

That also comes from a JAES paper. So, you have a formidable mountain to attack.