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$5K budget for subwoofer (can't stretch anymore) - what would you recommend? - Page 2

post #31 of 849
4/18/07 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Wait a minute. Each PLX is $1200 right? Doens't that skyrocket the price for amps?

I would try one PLX (or some other amp) first or one more powerful amp, then if you need it add a second.

In addition, many of these amps can be had for much less than retail. Amps are very important, but you have establish a benchmark for the power you will need.

Also, just about any amp can be sold readily so if you upgrade you can get most of your money back no problem
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post #32 of 849
4/18/07 at 12:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

many many options for that price, but this caught my attention in your post:

which tells me that you really want a very small footprint (let me know if that's not correct).

assuming that, I would probably suggest the following:

1. if you have headroom in the attic there for an IB right above the screen, then that's your ticket. 4 or 8 x Q18s, couple of QSC or Crown CE amps, and you are golden.

if IB is not a possibility, then consider:

2. 4x LMS5400 18"s, each its own cube (as jpmst3's setup) stacked on top per side, or 2 per box in opposite firing direction a la Seaton Submerssive. Add appropriate Power, and LT, EQ properly, and you are in very good shape.

3. 4 x Q18 18"s or RL-P18s, as in above

4. 4 x TC3000s, as in above

Option 1 is out.
What are tradeoffs between 2, 3 and 4?
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post #33 of 849
4/18/07 at 12:16pm
The PLX 3402 is not made anymore. They are available on the used market for $600-$700. One of them will not be enough amp for 4 TC3000s.

I believe audiolines.com has demo 3402s for like $719.

EDIT: Wild beat me to it

-Eli
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post #34 of 849
4/18/07 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Option 1 is out.
What are tradeoffs between 2, 3 and 4?

price, headroom, and arguably SQ (albeit nobody has made a mano a mano comparo in SQ between equivalent setups of the Rl-P series, Q series from fiCaraudio, and the TC3ks).

the LMS5400 will give you the better SQ and higher power handling with TONS of air displacement. the Q18s are air displacement vs price kings...and have excellent SQ in their own right. the RL-P18s are the new kids on the block, but if their smaller siblings are any indication, they are gonna be hard to beat price wise. The Tc3k's are proven sealed performers and love small enclosures.

model each up, and start to weigh the pros and cons of each...this is the fun part of your process.
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post #35 of 849
4/18/07 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Option 1 is out.
What are tradeoffs between 2, 3 and 4?

Option 2 will be arguably the best SQ.

Option 3 will be a little less expensive than Option 2 as it is a cheaper driver but still with very good SQ.

Option 4 will give you a db or two more output but give you an additional 25 lbs or so per cabinet because instead of one 75lb driver you are using two 50 lbers.
It will also give you opposing drivers.
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post #36 of 849
4/18/07 at 12:23pm
Read this thread:

http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=273
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post #37 of 849
4/18/07 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Option 1 is out.
What are tradeoffs between 2, 3 and 4?

2. Costs significantly more but otherwise superb. N
3. These subs require much larger enclosures than Option 2, but they are obviously less expensive. Excursion also isn't as high as Option 2, and they lack linear motor technology.

4. The enclosures for these would be the smallest. These subs are optimized for sealed applications. Output at same power input as Option 2 produces only -2dB less output, but the drivers are using more of their excursion.
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post #38 of 849
4/18/07 at 12:39pm
Thread Starter 
"2. 4x LMS5400 18"s, each its own cube (as jpmst3's setup) stacked on top per side, or 2 per box in opposite firing direction a la Seaton Submerssive. Add appropriate Power, and LT, EQ properly, and you are in very good shape"

I am liking option 2 with 2 per box. Again, the price on these drivers are $875/piece.
http://www.tcsounds.com/lms5400.htm
That is retail. Where can I find good deals on these? Again, will option 2 fit the $5K bill and satisfy all the criterial I mentioned in the first post. If it will not fit the bill, then I think option 4 is my next choice.
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post #39 of 849
4/18/07 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

"2. 4x LMS5400 18"s, each its own cube (as jpmst3's setup) stacked on top per side, or 2 per box in opposite firing direction a la Seaton Submerssive. Add appropriate Power, and LT, EQ properly, and you are in very good shape"

I am liking option 2 with 2 per box. Again, the price on these drivers are $875/piece.
http://www.tcsounds.com/lms5400.htm
That is retail. Where can I find good deals on these? Again, will option 2 fit the $5K bill and satisfy all the criterial I mentioned in the first post. If it will not fit the bill, then I think option 4 is my next choice.

Unfortunately, the driver price is what it is. They are not even in stock at the moment and you have to buy them direct from the manufacturer. Good drivers are not cheap, that includes shipping if that is any consulation here.

One nice thing though is that you could start of with one dual driver box, but this will put you way over 150 lbs that you indicated was your def. of heavy. The drivers alone will weigh that much and add another 50-100 lbs for box.

I seriously would consider one driver in a box. It will keep the weight and cost down considerably and dessimate the JL113s.... You can always add more down the road, but you won't need to, trust me.
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post #40 of 849
4/18/07 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

"
I am liking option 2 with 2 per box. Again, the price on these drivers are $875/piece.
http://www.tcsounds.com/lms5400.htm
That is retail. Where can I find good deals on these? Again, will option 2 fit the $5K bill and satisfy all the criterial I mentioned in the first post. If it will not fit the bill, then I think option 4 is my next choice.

are you kiddin?

done right, the above configuration will kill dual fathoms in every single category other than footprint. even at retail, the $875x4 + $1000 in power and you are still ahead, with more headroom, better SQ, and significant increases in just about any area including linearity.

also, the Q18s and RL-P options are still something i would consider for sure....yes, they are not LMTs, but they are still outstanding drivers with TONS of displacement, and have more than enough excursion (last I checked, upper 20's in Xmax is pretty gaddam good)....I think we are all getting a little spoiled with the LMS Xmax numbers. Don't let that deter you from considering them. Like I said, you are not spending $500....you are spending $5000, so spent a couple of hours and fire up winISD or Unibox or bassbox pro, and model these things....that outta give you a good start.
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post #41 of 849
4/18/07 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

"2. 4x LMS5400 18"s, each its own cube (as jpmst3's setup) stacked on top per side, or 2 per box in opposite firing direction a la Seaton Submerssive. Add appropriate Power, and LT, EQ properly, and you are in very good shape"

I am liking option 2 with 2 per box. Again, the price on these drivers are $875/piece.
http://www.tcsounds.com/lms5400.htm
That is retail. Where can I find good deals on these? Again, will option 2 fit the $5K bill and satisfy all the criterial I mentioned in the first post. If it will not fit the bill, then I think option 4 is my next choice.

You can only get the drivers from TC. Email them for a price quote on 4. You are going to be talking about 250lbs + per enclosure with this option.

Say $800 per driver = $3200 + shipping
$720 per amp = $1440 + shipping

Thats $4640 + shipping

Personally, I would go with the 4 TC-3000 option.

-Eli
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post #42 of 849
4/18/07 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

What are my options? What would you do?
Thanks for your help,
-Jai




The Bassmaxx ZR18 would more than fit your needs and your budget, while saving you space. According to David Lee, the T-H SPL parameters show a max SPL of 154dB. In a LLT enclosure, you'll easily get down below 16Hz. You may have to get the paper cone version to get up to 80Hz, as the fiberglass coned version starts to roll off above 45Hz.

Cost of the sub and a decent amp will be under your budget limit.

Estimated cost of ZR18: $1000
Cost of used QSC PL 6.0: $1700
Cost of materials, wood, glue, screws, binding posts: <$200

But you really don't need the QSC, as it should only take about 7 watts to reach 120dB @ 16Hz with this woofer in an appropriate enclosure. What the arrangement buys you is lots of headroom and distortion figures more commonly attributed to amplifier specs than woofer specs.

I tested a single ZR18 against an array of 6 EV-18Bs and 4 Altec 3184s, and below 25Hz, there was no contest-- the single Bassmaxx was generating an earthquake while the other drivers were just distorting.
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post #43 of 849
4/18/07 at 12:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Unfortunately, the driver price is what it is. They are not even in stock at the moment and you have to buy them direct from the manufacturer. Good drivers are not cheap, that includes shipping if that is any consulation here.

One nice thing though is that you could start of with one dual driver box, but this will put you way over 150 lbs that you indicated was your def. of heavy. The drivers alone will weigh that much and add another 50-100 lbs for box.

I seriously would consider one driver in a box. It will keep the weight and cost down considerably and dessimate the JL113s.... You can always add more down the road, but you won't need to, trust me.

jpmst,
I like that idea of 1 driver in a box. I can always add another later as you said but it is best to get the "best driver" out there in that price bracket.
Ok, so if I go with option 2, just that it is now going to be a single driver per box, then here is the breakdown.

WIll these remain out of stock for a long time? I can call them and find out, but what is your experience?

1. 2 Drivers (LMS 5400) - $1750.
2. 2 open box QSC PLX 3402 - $1440
3. SMS-1 (about $400 if I am fast enough in audiogon)
4. That leaves me with about $1500 for cabinet and grills.

Tell me more about the internals of the box. I read the other thread quickly and the insides look complicated with various chambers. Is there anything special I need to do inside the box. Packing material etc etc. Remember, I am very new to this, so you may have to explain more to help me out. What is the best way to install grills and pins to hold them in place?
Thank you so much for all the help folks. I think I may actually end up doing this
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post #44 of 849
4/18/07 at 12:58pm
If it were me I'd probably try to get something set up with 2 TC Sounds LMS-5400s if I had $5K to drop on subs.
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post #45 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:08pm
Given his design considerations though, I don't think the RL-p18 would be very well suited, even sealed, it requires a very large enclosure and getting that Q down would be a nightmare. The LMS 5400's would very well considering what he wants, they model well even in 4.5^3 enclosures (22" cube). As for powering them, the QSC PLX 3402's are a great value given the used prices, and they are designed so robust that they will take any abuse we or the previous owners can dish out. One alternative though may be using a pair of Buttkicker amps for each driver, this would cost about $500 per driver and provide you with more than enough power. I would try out two LMS 5400's and then move up to 4 if you really want that much bass, but I doubt any room could take it.
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post #46 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:08pm
Thread Starter 
I just called TC sounds and they were helpful. The wait could be as long as 4 weeks but maybe ready before that. They are waiting for parts to arrive from China and the parts are on the way, just don't know when exactly they arrive.
Is it worth the wait or should I look at other drivers?
One thing I really like about this config is that the boxes will be lighter and I can always add 2 more drivers (if I go insane ) in the future.
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post #47 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

jpmst,
I like that idea of 1 driver in a box. I can always add another later as you said but it is best to get the "best driver" out there in that price bracket.
Ok, so if I go with option 2, just that it is now going to be a single driver per box, then here is the breakdown.

WIll these remain out of stock for a long time? I can call them and find out, but what is your experience?

1. 2 Drivers (LMS 5400) - $1750.
2. 2 open box QSC PLX 3402 - $1440
3. SMS-1 (about $400 if I am fast enough in audiogon)
4. That leaves me with about $1500 for cabinet and grills.

Tell me more about the internals of the box. I read the other thread quickly and the insides look complicated with various chambers. Is there anything special I need to do inside the box. Packing material etc etc. Remember, I am very new to this, so you may have to explain more to help me out. What is the best way to install grills and pins to hold them in place?
Thank you so much for all the help folks. I think I may actually end up doing this

The driver availability is the big question. However, I think they are in or very close to being in production at this very moment. So, I would call to verify this.

Check my simple LMS project thread. You are basically building two of these and to whatever cabinet finsh you would like.

As per armystud,
BTW, I can't recommend it, but I am running a Buttkicker amplifier at 1 ohm for a single LMS. I am feeding it ~2000+ watts but it is not in its recommended load.
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post #48 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

I just called TC sounds and they were helpful. The wait could be as long as 4 weeks but maybe ready before that. They are waiting for parts to arrive from China and the parts are on the way, just don't know when exactly they arrive.
Is it worth the wait or should I look at other drivers?
One thing I really like about this config is that the boxes will be lighter and I can always add 2 more drivers (if I go insane ) in the future.

I think they are worth the wait. This setup would satisfy your criteria, and do it well.
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post #49 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

jpmst,
I like that idea of 1 driver in a box. I can always add another later as you said but it is best to get the "best driver" out there in that price bracket.
Ok, so if I go with option 2, just that it is now going to be a single driver per box, then here is the breakdown.

WIll these remain out of stock for a long time? I can call them and find out, but what is your experience?

1. 2 Drivers (LMS 5400) - $1750.
2. 2 open box QSC PLX 3402 - $1440
3. SMS-1 (about $400 if I am fast enough in audiogon)
4. That leaves me with about $1500 for cabinet and grills.

Tell me more about the internals of the box. I read the other thread quickly and the insides look complicated with various chambers. Is there anything special I need to do inside the box. Packing material etc etc. Remember, I am very new to this, so you may have to explain more to help me out. What is the best way to install grills and pins to hold them in place?
Thank you so much for all the help folks. I think I may actually end up doing this



All he did was brace it, there are tons of ways of doing this, the easiest is just to make "baffles" these are boards that somewhat match the front baffle, all you do is make holes in them and mount them behind the front baffle inside the cabinet, you want the cabinet to be as sturdy as possible, but you also want enough holes between the baffles to allow the air to pressurize the whole cabinet.
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post #50 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

jpmst,
I like that idea of 1 driver in a box. I can always add another later as you said but it is best to get the "best driver" out there in that price bracket.
Ok, so if I go with option 2, just that it is now going to be a single driver per box, then here is the breakdown.

WIll these remain out of stock for a long time? I can call them and find out, but what is your experience?

1. 2 Drivers (LMS 5400) - $1750.
2. 2 open box QSC PLX 3402 - $1440
3. SMS-1 (about $400 if I am fast enough in audiogon)
4. That leaves me with about $1500 for cabinet and grills.

Tell me more about the internals of the box. I read the other thread quickly and the insides look complicated with various chambers. Is there anything special I need to do inside the box. Packing material etc etc. Remember, I am very new to this, so you may have to explain more to help me out. What is the best way to install grills and pins to hold them in place?
Thank you so much for all the help folks. I think I may actually end up doing this

The chambers you speak of are braces. DIYers usually take the initiative with bracing to minimize enclosure resonances that can rob the system of output and definition. Usually, window braces every 5-6" will do the trick. For a single LMS-5400 with a PLX-34002 behind it, you will want to take bracing rather seriously...as these things will easily be capable of producing insane levels of audio nirvana

Packing or stuffing the insides of a sealed box serves a few purposes. Besides minimizing panel resonance, it helps tune the system to your liking (higher and lower damping, AKA Qtc). The more stuffing you add (up to a certain point) the larger the enclosure will appear to the driver. Having a larger enclosure increases efficiency in the lower frequencies while sacrificing some output in the upper bass regions (nothing a little EQ can't fix). That being said, I suggest you experiment with stuffing to find the amount that suits your listening tastes etc.
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post #51 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

I think they are worth the wait. This setup would satisfy your criteria, and do it well.

Yes, that is what got me interested in this thread. Obviously, I liked my setup and for once it is just about exactly what is called for here with all constraints accounted for..

I can't see how you would miss here. I also can't see how you would need more!
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post #52 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

As per armystud,
BTW, I can't recommend it, but I am running a Buttkicker amplifier at 1 ohm for a single LMS. I am feeding it ~2000+ watts but it is not in its recommended load.

Thats why I recommended he use a pair per driver, this requires a 2ohm load and he gets as much as 1900watts per voice coil, thats realistically almost 3500watts per driver, or the equivalent of a QSC PLX 3402, its just that they cost less and he's getting them new, (not that that matters much in the case of the QSC's)

I loved your work BTW
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post #53 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Thats why I recommended he use a pair per driver, this requires a 2ohm load and he gets as much as 1900watts per voice coil, thats realistically almost 3500watts per driver, or the equivalent of a QSC PLX 3402, its just that they cost less and he's getting them new, (not that that matters much in the case of the QSC's)

I loved your work BTW

Ya, I know what you meant. I was just thinking in case he wanted to take the chance on one per driver as I did. It is only money.

Thanks too!
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post #54 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Yes, that is what got me interested in this thread. Obviously, I liked my setup and for once it is just about exactly what is called for here with all constraints accounted for..

I can't see how you would miss here. I also can't see how you would need more!

Aye. Even if one looks at just the linear displacement, the pair of 113's have a total linear displacement of 9.8liters.

The pair of 18" 5400s? 18.2 liters.

Not to mention the power increase by going with a pair of 3402s.
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post #55 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Aye. Even if one looks at just the linear displacement, the pair of 113's have a total linear displacement of 9.8liters.

The pair of 18" 5400s? 18.2 liters.

Not to mention the power increase by going with a pair of 3402s.

No kidding, It is just fun thinking about it. That much power unleashed into a room that size is unreal, especially from small boxes. I can't even get close to using 1/4 of that in my room without internal bleeding.
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post #56 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Aye. Even if one looks at just the linear displacement, the pair of 113's have a total linear displacement of 9.8liters.

The pair of 18" 5400s? 18.2 liters.

That would mean around 5 dB more output (overly simplified).
Quote:


Not to mention the power increase by going with a pair of 3402s.

Power doesn't matter, only displacement.

IMO the best advantage of a dual, opposing firing box, is the fact that it will need much less bracing than a single driver box. Actually you can't make the single driver box as 'dead' no matter how well you brace it. Been there...and so on.
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post #57 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Mayer View Post

That would mean around 5 dB more output (overly simplified).

Power doesn't matter, only displacement.

Well, that is about what we figured, roughly capable of double output, +/- a db.

Agreed Richard, but he wants to be able to move them around (less than 150 lbs).
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post #58 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Well, that is about what we figured, roughly capable of double output, +/- a db.

Yes, just wanted to clarify that he won't blow the roof even with that setting.
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post #59 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:38pm
Quote:


Power doesn't matter, only displacement.

I didn't mean to imply that it affected the maximum output of the system at a given frequency, but power most certainly matters, generally speaking.
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post #60 of 849
4/18/07 at 1:40pm
$5000 for a DIY sub.....makes me wonder what the rest of the system is?

For that room, I think some of this is overkill, isnt it? Fun but.....$3000 gets him a Sub that few people have.
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