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post #20941 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaydigi View Post

Explain? Are you talking about the very end in Central Park etc...?

I agree. It oughta' be a crime to mention the ending of BSG and LOST in the same sentence. I know Ron Moore dodged a couple of bullets (Starbuck? Angels? WTF?), but by and large the ending completed full circle the oft-heard line: "All this has happened before, and it will all happen again." I was totally fine with it.
post #20942 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaydigi View Post

Explain? Are you talking about the very end in Central Park etc...?

Central park scene was OK given what transpired in the prior hour. Battlestar Galactica's ending with Starbuck an "angel" or something, eschewing technology to go farm by hand (bet THAT would work out real well) and so on. My point with BSG was that early on the producer abandoned any attempt at continuity and admitted to winging it, e.g. the Final 5. Apologies for likening excellent (well mostly) LOST with the disaster that originally fine BSG became by S3.
post #20943 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by philw1776 View Post

Central park scene was OK given what transpired in the prior hour. Battlestar Galactica's ending with Starbuck an "angel" or something, eschewing technology to go farm by hand (bet THAT would work out real well) and so on. My point with BSG was that early on the producer abandoned any attempt at continuity and admitted to winging it, e.g. the Final 5. Apologies for likening excellent (well mostly) LOST with the disaster that originally fine BSG became by S3.

I dunno. I thought BSG held together pretty well. Can't see it being a "disaster" in any sense of the word except maybe the Starbuck vanishing act. And the finale moved me in a powerful way the LOST finale didn't. But to each his own.
post #20944 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

i dunno. I thought bsg held together pretty well. Can't see it being a "disaster" in any sense of the word except maybe the starbuck vanishing act. And the finale moved me in a powerful way the lost finale didn't. But to each his own.

+1
post #20945 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffAHayes View Post

I suspect no matter HOW Cuse and Lindeloff had wrapped this series it wouldn't have satisfied some block of viewers.

This is something I definitely agree with, and I blame the internet...

I suspect that the original premise may have been that the island was purgatory. But the first season hadn't even ended yet, and you couldn't avoid hearing someone say "it's purgatory!". The writers were forced to address this, and if they admitted it, the show would have most-likely died pretty quickly. So, the writers denied it, and continued writing, and based on the completion of the series some of us believe that they were making it up as they go. At some point the writers decided to revisit the purgatory idea, albeit in a different way, but that only explained the side-flash, and they never bothered to explain much else.

They really had an ambitious goal; to tell a story that contained a mystery, and stretch it out over the course of several seasons. The problem? The internet. This idea works well in the movies because you only have to fool one person at a time. If the guy in the front row figures out the "twist", it's not ruined for the other 100+ movie-goers. But in the age of the internet, your television audience is millions... and if one person "figures it out", it spreads like wildfire. I think it would be impossible to have a legitimate ending that wasn't figured out and spoiled.

Consider a movie like the Sixth Sense or The Usual Suspects, but created as a 12 episode story spread out over a single season. Would it work in today's world? i strongly doubt it. Discussions would surface immediately, and within the first few episodes, someone would figure it out and it would spread like lightning. Would people still tune in if they already "knew" the ending? I doubt it.

I was amazed by the theories put forth by people on the internet about LOST. Unsurprisingly, I found a few to be better than the direction the show actually took (My favorite was that the island was a manifestation by Hurley, who was still in a mental hospital). But every one of these theories was one more plot line that the writers had to avoid... or else they risked losing their audience.

The writers were in a no-win situation. People wanted an ending that "explained everything", that somehow took the entire series and made sense of it all. But there was absolutely no way for the writers to do this without someone, somewhere figuring it out prior to the finale. So, instead, we get glowing caves, magic water, and very few answers.

I doubt we will ever see a series like LOST again. It's much too ambitious in this day and age, and I feel it would be simply impossible to carry any type of authentic pre-written mystery to it's end without it being revealed by the masses prior to the finale.
post #20946 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by philw1776 View Post

What was egregiously bad was the S6 sudden Deus ex Machina focus on 2 doofus brothers theme and the magic cave. Introducing a new total crapload of mystical hokum after seasons of interesting well posed sci-fi/fantasy mysteries was a writers' "Look, here's a squirrel!" distraction from their failure to wrap up however slightly many of the prior seasons fundamental plot lines.

This. A thousand times this.
post #20947 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by vespaguy View Post

They really had an ambitious goal; to tell a story that contained a mystery, and stretch it out over the course of several seasons. The problem? The internet.

But in the age of the internet, your television audience is millions... and if one person "figures it out", it spreads like wildfire. I think it would be impossible to have a legitimate ending that wasn't figured out and spoiled.

This excuse is null and void, because LOST was one of the first television shows to embrace the internet. The Lost Experience was the biggest thing since sliced bread, and it played up the Dharma Initiative and Hanso being important. In the end, not only was Dharma very much not important, but neither was Hanso.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vespaguy View Post

Consider a movie like the Sixth Sense or The Usual Suspects, but created as a 12 episode story spread out over a single season. Would it work in today's world? i strongly doubt it. Discussions would surface immediately, and within the first few episodes, someone would figure it out and it would spread like lightning. Would people still tune in if they already "knew" the ending? I doubt it.

Without going in to spoilers, Dexter seems to work. In most of the seasons, they get away with keeping a secret that is ultimately revealed in the final episodes or last minute of the finale, and even if people on the internet figure it out (like happened in last year's season 6) it didn't stop people from watching.

Regarding LOST and the purgatory angle, maybe they should have thought twice about dropping an easter egg of a character like Gary Troupe in a season 1 episode. That practically gave it away. The worst thing the LOST producers could have done was deny that they were in purgatory, but they did just that. They flat out, 100%, said that the island was NOT purgatory. Yes, people are going to be pissed when they find out they were lied to. I don't know at what point in the creative process they decided to end the series that way, but if they knew all along it was going to be purgatory, they did a terrible job of telling that story.

Even if people knew the "secret", that doesn't absolve them of not bothering to create a compelling story. I watched Apollo 13 knowing that they land safely on Earth, and it was still a suspenseful movie.
post #20948 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by tighr View Post

Regarding LOST and the purgatory angle, maybe they should have thought twice about dropping an easter egg of a character like Gary Troupe in a season 1 episode. That practically gave it away. The worst thing the LOST producers could have done was deny that they were in purgatory, but they did just that. They flat out, 100%, said that the island was NOT purgatory. Yes, people are going to be pissed when they find out they were lied to. I don't know at what point in the creative process they decided to end the series that way, but if they knew all along it was going to be purgatory, they did a terrible job of telling that story.

The Island wasn't purgatory. Everything that happened on the island happened in the "real world". The S6 flash sideways was, for lack of a better term, purgatory. Did they lie? No. Did they bum a bunch of folks out by ending up using the concept to explain what we were being led to believe was the result of Faraday's theoretical reset button? Yep.
post #20949 of 21026
It really doesn't matter if some viewer correctly guesses a mystery, as long as the producers don't acknowledge it. As mentioned, there were dozens if not hundreds of theories floating around, some of them very imaginative, some with a ton of "supporting evidence" consisting of little clues someone thought they saw, or interpreted creatively. So what if one of them happened to be correct?

That was part of the fun for the obsessive fan. The casual fan didn't get swept up in all of that - they just watched and enjoyed the show. But any form of purgatory should have been off the table since the producers specifically denied it, while at the same time strongly suggesting there were [pseudo]scientific explanations for all of it. And mostly because purgatory is a really lame duex ex machina to end such an ambitious series with.

Again, I maintain they could have done it better had they focused on their core storylines. It's like they had established a reputation for innovative ways to tell the story that "shook it up" every season with flash forwards and backwards, and going sideways seemed to be the only thing they hadn't tried yet. It might have sounded great in the writers' room, but once they were committed, they had to somehow make it work and all the "good stuff" got left on the sideline while they tried to work the sideways Purgatory angle out. Ultimately, that decision was an epic fail. It tarnished the whole series as a result.
post #20950 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by vespaguy View Post

This is something I definitely agree with, and I blame the internet...

I suspect that the original premise may have been that the island was purgatory. But the first season hadn't even ended yet, and you couldn't avoid hearing someone say "it's purgatory!". The writers were forced to address this, and if they admitted it, the show would have most-likely died pretty quickly. So, the writers denied it, and continued writing, and based on the completion of the series some of us believe that they were making it up as they go. At some point the writers decided to revisit the purgatory idea, albeit in a different way, but that only explained the side-flash, and they never bothered to explain much else.

They really had an ambitious goal; to tell a story that contained a mystery, and stretch it out over the course of several seasons. The problem? The internet. This idea works well in the movies because you only have to fool one person at a time. If the guy in the front row figures out the "twist", it's not ruined for the other 100+ movie-goers. But in the age of the internet, your television audience is millions... and if one person "figures it out", it spreads like wildfire. I think it would be impossible to have a legitimate ending that wasn't figured out and spoiled.

Consider a movie like the Sixth Sense or The Usual Suspects, but created as a 12 episode story spread out over a single season. Would it work in today's world? i strongly doubt it. Discussions would surface immediately, and within the first few episodes, someone would figure it out and it would spread like lightning. Would people still tune in if they already "knew" the ending? I doubt it.

I was amazed by the theories put forth by people on the internet about LOST. Unsurprisingly, I found a few to be better than the direction the show actually took (My favorite was that the island was a manifestation by Hurley, who was still in a mental hospital). But every one of these theories was one more plot line that the writers had to avoid... or else they risked losing their audience.

The writers were in a no-win situation. People wanted an ending that "explained everything", that somehow took the entire series and made sense of it all. But there was absolutely no way for the writers to do this without someone, somewhere figuring it out prior to the finale. So, instead, we get glowing caves, magic water, and very few answers.

I doubt we will ever see a series like LOST again. It's much too ambitious in this day and age, and I feel it would be simply impossible to carry any type of authentic pre-written mystery to it's end without it being revealed by the masses prior to the finale.

The problem I have with this is, who cares if people figure it out?

So what?

Good writing is good writing and if they pull it off well enough, it's still a great journey seeing how they get there.

With Lost, we had great characters and a lot of great puzzles and mysteries to feed our appetites, so even if we figured out the ending, it would still be fun to see it through.

With every Columbo movie, we know "who dunnit" right from the start. It was all about him trapping the bad guy with that "just one more thing..."

Look, there will always be fan-boys that figure it all out, then say "see, I told you" when it all ends that way. So what? Let them have it. It's better than them being pissed when you deny it, then do it anyway - though, yes, I get that the Island itself wasn't purgatory. However, it still ended up with a purgatory plot device, which was still essentially called in season 1.

Which is all the more reason they should have run with the evil corporate conspiracy angle and tied up the science instead of making the characters "chosen ones". It was much better when they were on the island by accident.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tighr View Post

This excuse is null and void, because LOST was one of the first television shows to embrace the internet. The Lost Experience was the biggest thing since sliced bread, and it played up the Dharma Initiative and Hanso being important. In the end, not only was Dharma very much not important, but neither was Hanso.

Even if people knew the "secret", that doesn't absolve them of not bothering to create a compelling story. I watched Apollo 13 knowing that they land safely on Earth, and it was still a suspenseful movie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

It really doesn't matter if some viewer correctly guesses a mystery, as long as the producers don't acknowledge it. As mentioned, there were dozens if not hundreds of theories floating around, some of them very imaginative, some with a ton of "supporting evidence" consisting of little clues someone thought they saw, or interpreted creatively. So what if one of them happened to be correct?

That was part of the fun for the obsessive fan. The casual fan didn't get swept up in all of that - they just watched and enjoyed the show. But any form of purgatory should have been off the table since the producers specifically denied it, while at the same time strongly suggesting there were [pseudo]scientific explanations for all of it. And mostly because purgatory is a really lame duex ex machina to end such an ambitious series with.

Again, I maintain they could have done it better had they focused on their core storylines. It's like they had established a reputation for innovative ways to tell the story that "shook it up" every season with flash forwards and backwards, and going sideways seemed to be the only thing they hadn't tried yet. It might have sounded great in the writers' room, but once they were committed, they had to somehow make it work and all the "good stuff" got left on the sideline while they tried to work the sideways Purgatory angle out. Ultimately, that decision was an epic fail. It tarnished the whole series as a result.

Bing-O!

They made Lost a social experience and encouraged us to communitcate about it by creating those fake web sites for Hanso, Dharma, Oceanic and by tossing those numbers into practically every show.

I said this way earlier in the thread: if the producers didn't want to have to lie, they should have shut the hell up and not said anything.

Honestly, based on the plot line where the one hatch was a social experiment (the tubes went nowhere), they should have had that be the ending: we were the social experiment. We controlled it. We were Dharma and never knew it.

No magic cave. No purgatory.

It was a behavioral study and we where the monkeys being studied. That would be a hell of an ending.

"Don't you understand, Jack? This wasn't real. You never crashed. People never died. It was a social media experiement. It was like that button in the hatch. We wanted to see what we could get you to do if the stakes were high enough.

People watched everything you did all the time you were here. They're watching you right now...and judging you..."
post #20951 of 21026
Over @ HuffPo, they have a story on the Entertainment page discussing the "best" TV finales of all time. Before some here get in a tizzy w/o reading the story...no, LOST is not among it's top 15. But the "Last Supper" promo pic from the final season of LOST is used at the begining of said story - and they do say this before heading on into the best of list:

"It's been exactly two years since the series finale of 'Lost' and you probably still love it/hate it as much as you did that night.

No matter your stance on 'Lost's' mystical ending, the fact that a series could polarize fans so instantly means that it did its job -- even if you didn't get all the answers you wanted. The 'Lost' series finale will go down as one of the most controversial in TV history, and that's saying a lot
."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...t#s=more228076

I would think that the above comment is something we can all agree on.
post #20952 of 21026
Damon Lindelof said in a tweet today, "LOST died two years ago today. And it was not dead the whole time... I promise. Thanks for remembering, gang."

Hope that puts any debate about them being dead the whole show to rest. Yes, during last season; no, the whole show. Silly notion...
post #20953 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpeacock22 View Post

Damon Lindelof said in a tweet today, "LOST died two years ago today. And it was not dead the whole time... I promise. Thanks for remembering, gang."

Hope that puts any debate about them being dead the whole show to rest. Yes, during last season; no, the whole show. Silly notion...

And not even all of the last season, just the "sideways" timeline.
post #20954 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by philw1776 View Post

I'm a sci-fi guy who loved the characters in LOST. Got into the Jack-Kate-Sawyer soap opera side without complaint. The part of S6 that did not bother me was sidewise LA where 6 seasons of characters mostly got to reunite, last 15 minutes aside.

What was egregiously bad was the S6 sudden Deus ex Machina focus on 2 doofus brothers theme and the magic cave. Introducing a new total crapload of mystical hokum after seasons of interesting well posed sci-fi/fantasy mysteries was a writers' "Look, here's a squirrel!" distraction from their failure to wrap up however slightly many of the prior seasons fundamental plot lines.

Agree wholeheartedly that the prior example of the Desmond "Constant" episode illustrates character driven sci-fi at its finest. Too bad that after 5 years the writers got carried away with swelled "artistic" egos from fandom's accolades and tried to out clever themselves. Massive fail.

This sums it all up really well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vespaguy View Post

This is something I definitely agree with, and I blame the internet...

I suspect that the original premise may have been that the island was purgatory. But the first season hadn't even ended yet, and you couldn't avoid hearing someone say "it's purgatory!". The writers were forced to address this, and if they admitted it, the show would have most-likely died pretty quickly. So, the writers denied it, and continued writing, and based on the completion of the series some of us believe that they were making it up as they go. At some point the writers decided to revisit the purgatory idea, albeit in a different way, but that only explained the side-flash, and they never bothered to explain much else.

They really had an ambitious goal; to tell a story that contained a mystery, and stretch it out over the course of several seasons. The problem? The internet. This idea works well in the movies because you only have to fool one person at a time. If the guy in the front row figures out the "twist", it's not ruined for the other 100+ movie-goers. But in the age of the internet, your television audience is millions... and if one person "figures it out", it spreads like wildfire. I think it would be impossible to have a legitimate ending that wasn't figured out and spoiled.

Consider a movie like the Sixth Sense or The Usual Suspects, but created as a 12 episode story spread out over a single season. Would it work in today's world? i strongly doubt it. Discussions would surface immediately, and within the first few episodes, someone would figure it out and it would spread like lightning. Would people still tune in if they already "knew" the ending? I doubt it.

You make a really good point here. As much as people claim they would have enjoyed it anyway, I think people would have been quite frustrated if the resolution ended up being something they considered "obvious" for the last 5 years. Not that I think that means they had to make the massive jump to magic cave battles, but it does put some perspective on it.

It would be interesting to hear an interview with the show runners where they had to be truthful, and to find out if they really did originally go into things with the idea that it would end up being purgatory.

TV is a weird thing, that much is sure. With the short leash TV shows have it seems like tons of shows go into things with either no ending in mind, or no way to extend things beyond one season in mind. They just want to grab the viewers and stay on the air and they'll make something up later. A lot of the current shows like Touch and Awake don't seem like they could go anywhere after the one season. Likewise if you look at the trailers released for some of the new shows coming this fall on Fox and ABC, I don't see how a lot of those could go beyond one season and I don't think the show writers have any idea right now either.
post #20955 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeBaGeL View Post

It would be interesting to hear an interview with the show runners where they had to be truthful, and to find out if they really did originally go into things with the idea that it would end up being purgatory.

The linked video interview w/ Damon Lindelof posted here a couple days back sorta does that...at least DL states that it was a bit of a bummer in S1 when fans speculated about "purgatory". He gives the sense that the events or at least the basic gist of what was to become S6 was at least partially sketched out that early on.

DL also states in the same interview that his least fave episode was in fact Across The Sea from S6 (intro to the magic cave & Allison Janney).
post #20956 of 21026
I very much agree with those of you who have stated the Desmond/Penny episode "Constant" was among the best ever.

And the quote I posted from the 1985 Peter O'Toole movie, "Creator," was NOT meant to imply that religion has the answers -- only that their may be "kernels of truth" in religion that may also directly relate to proved/provable scientific laws and theories...

For example, Newton's Third Law of Motion: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction," is pretty much an EXACT description of karma -- at least the type of karma that we create via our actions, based on "religious/spiritual" views of karma. Therefore, it's possible that "Newton's Third Law" is not just a law of "physics," but actually a much more UNIVERSAL law that actually applies to ALL actions in the universe -- even those we don't perceive as being a part of "physics."

In quantum mechanics there is the very strange principle of "quantum entanglement," which actually even freaked out Albert Einstein, as he called it "spooky action at a distance." When two elementary particles become quantum entangled, any change to one IMMEDIATELY affects the other, REGARDLESS of their distance. There have been some scientific proofs made of this, although it's not currently possible to, say, prove an entangled particle on, say, Mars changes at the same time as one on Earth, therefore PROVING they exceed the speed of light. Still, the proofs made on Earth -- only a few hundred miles apart, but using EXTREMELY ACCURATE timing devices -- have indicated changes that appear to exceed the speed of light. There are possible "spiritual" applications for this, as well.

I'm just saying that it's possible that at some point science and spirituality WILL merge. We will find, perhaps that all are one... perhaps that "dark energy" is "the force," for instance. What we KNOW, scientifically, is greatly dwarved by what we DON'T know. The same applies with religion and spirituality, except, perhaps for people having individual experiences which most likely keep to themselves and/or are not able to accurately relate on a conscious level.

I see no reason for the hostility that continues between the two sides, and I think, perhaps, the way "Lost" ended was at least a little bit of a "salute" to this line of thinking. If you consider, MUCH of current science -- things that are capable due to current science -- things as simple as matches, would have been considered "black magic" only a couple hundred years ago. Just because we don't comprehend something or yet know about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Jeff
post #20957 of 21026
I won't re-post the whole thing via quotes, but love your post JeffAHayes.

Right along the lines of the whole "man of science/man of faith" angle LOST played on.

Doubt you'll dissuade those that did not get what they wanted/felt they deserved for sticking it out for 6 seasons, of course.....but very well said. I do agree that you touched on exactly what the LOST team was probably shooting for from the get go. Too many of us got caught up on the little details & geek lore (myself included). Not that the showrunners or ABC didn't help fuel that fire, obviously.

In the end, as I've said here before, I was not disappointed in the way the show ended. In fact, I enjoyed it more after a second viewing straight thru. I understand the frustration that others have with it, but in the end I was entertained. That is all that really mattered to me in the end.
post #20958 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffAHayes View Post

For example, Newton's Third Law of Motion: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction," is pretty much an EXACT description of karma -- at least the type of karma that we create via our actions, based on "religious/spiritual" views of karma. Therefore, it's possible that "Newton's Third Law" is not just a law of "physics," but actually a much more UNIVERSAL law that actually applies to ALL actions in the universe -- even those we don't perceive as being a part of "physics."

Not to get into a spiritual debate, but there's a huge problem here. Science is repeatable and falsifiable. Karma is feel-good mumbo-jumbo that lets folks feel good about a bad person's comeuppance, or a good persons good fortune. But for every criminal who gets hit by a car or good samaritan who wins the lottery, there are hundreds of good folks who struggle, and bad people who get away with bad stuff. The day Karma is repeatable and falsifiable is the day Karma falls under the banner of science. Until then, it's wishful thinking.

Quote:


I'm just saying that it's possible that at some point science and spirituality WILL merge. We will find, perhaps that all are one... perhaps that "dark energy" is "the force," for instance. What we KNOW, scientifically, is greatly dwarved by what we DON'T know. The same applies with religion and spirituality, except, perhaps for people having individual experiences which most likely keep to themselves and/or are not able to accurately relate on a conscious level.

Quantum mechanics is amazing. And ridiculously confusing. And although the mechanics may not be known, the tests are repeatable and falsifiable. Thus, it's science.
I can't see spirituality ever merging with science, simply because I've never once seen any proof that it exists. There's little use trying to find a mechanism behind an event when the event itself fails to be replicated.

Quote:


I see no reason for the hostility that continues between the two sides, and I think, perhaps, the way "Lost" ended was at least a little bit of a "salute" to this line of thinking. If you consider, MUCH of current science -- things that are capable due to current science -- things as simple as matches, would have been considered "black magic" only a couple hundred years ago. Just because we don't comprehend something or yet know about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I agree. Science has uncovered *real* explainations, over and over and over again where spirituality/religion had been used to explain previously. The sun? Nope, not a god riding a chariot; it's a mass of incandescent gas (shout out to TMBG). Thunder? Not an angry god. Man? Not created 4000 years ago.
The problem with spirituality is that there usually is a very real, scientific (and usually boring) explanation for "spiritual events", but the believers simply dismiss them.
post #20959 of 21026
Worst ending of a show EVER.

Looking back on it now it should have ended when the bomb went off instead of extending it another season. I could have lived with completing that circle of time without the BS of purga-crapatory they were in or whatever the heck that was.
post #20960 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by vespaguy View Post

Not to get into a spiritual debate, but there's a huge problem here. Science is repeatable and falsifiable. Karma is feel-good mumbo-jumbo that lets folks feel good about a bad person's comeuppance, or a good persons good fortune. But for every criminal who gets hit by a car or good samaritan who wins the lottery, there are hundreds of good folks who struggle, and bad people who get away with bad stuff. The day Karma is repeatable and falsifiable is the day Karma falls under the banner of science. Until then, it's wishful thinking.



Quantum mechanics is amazing. And ridiculously confusing. And although the mechanics may not be known, the tests are repeatable and falsifiable. Thus, it's science.
I can't see spirituality ever merging with science, simply because I've never once seen any proof that it exists. There's little use trying to find a mechanism behind an event when the event itself fails to be replicated.



I agree. Science has uncovered *real* explainations, over and over and over again where spirituality/religion had been used to explain previously. The sun? Nope, not a god riding a chariot; it's a mass of incandescent gas (shout out to TMBG). Thunder? Not an angry god. Man? Not created 4000 years ago.
The problem with spirituality is that there usually is a very real, scientific (and usually boring) explanation for "spiritual events", but the believers simply dismiss them.

Perhaps there's a "bigger picture" involved, vespaguy, that were we able to see beyond a single lifetime and through the veil of illusion and all the misinterpretations and superstitions that have passed as religion/spirituality for thousands of years we could see the science of something like karma at work...

But I'm out... those who wish to hate this sort of ending and will never admit there MAY be universal truths that apply not only to what they consider "provable scientific experiments," but universally to everything and everyone will never be persuaded. It's sort of like trying to prove the concept of snow or ice to a south-sea native who's never seen a temperature below 50 degrees and never seen TV or a movie or been off his or her island. Or how to you prove such a thing as a vaccuum exists if you don't have the mechanical ability to produce one, or the ability to fly into outer space and find one? Just because our VERY limited current scientific abilities can't prove that some of the "laws" we consider apply only to what we can measure don't actually extend to things we can't, doesn't mean they don't.
Jeff
post #20961 of 21026
Wow amazing to see this thread resurrected two years later

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwebb1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeBaGeL View Post

It would be interesting to hear an interview with the show runners where they had to be truthful, and to find out if they really did originally go into things with the idea that it would end up being purgatory.

The linked video interview w/ Damon Lindelof posted here a couple days back sorta does that...at least DL states that it was a bit of a bummer in S1 when fans speculated about "purgatory". He gives the sense that the events or at least the basic gist of what was to become S6 was at least partially sketched out that early on.

DL also states in the same interview that his least fave episode was in fact Across The Sea from S6 (intro to the magic cave & Allison Janney).

I watched that interview this weekend, and I agree. The difference in enthusiasm that DL showed for the purgatory story vs. the real story was really striking. It's clear they very much wanted to do the purgatory story, and that makes it very hard to believe that purgatory would not have been the whole story had the series been canceled in the first couple of seasons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

But any form of purgatory should have been off the table since the producers specifically denied it, while at the same time strongly suggesting there were [pseudo]scientific explanations for all of it. And mostly because purgatory is a really lame duex ex machina to end such an ambitious series with.

But if you're doing a mystery series and you don't know how many episodes it's going to run, and you want to have an ending you can throw on at any point to wrap things up, it's going to have to be some kind of deus ex machina, isn't it?

I mean, it's not like they could have thrown the glowy light in the cave into the finale on short notice. They had 3 years to set that up and it still felt forced.

But the church scene with Jack and his dad could have easily been worked into any season finale to turn it into a series finale, because that scene was a perfect answer to the question the Losties asked at the end of the pilot, i.e. Where are we?

Quote:


Again, I maintain they could have done it better had they focused on their core storylines. It's like they had established a reputation for innovative ways to tell the story that "shook it up" every season with flash forwards and backwards, and going sideways seemed to be the only thing they hadn't tried yet. It might have sounded great in the writers' room, but once they were committed, they had to somehow make it work and all the "good stuff" got left on the sideline while they tried to work the sideways Purgatory angle out. Ultimately, that decision was an epic fail. It tarnished the whole series as a result.

Except this is not the way it happened. They didn't start doing different types of flashes until after they had a series end date. Prior to that, they stuck with flashbacks and ever more island mysteries.

Once they agreed during season 3 to do three additional seasons, they settled on a flash forward season, a time travel season, and a flash sideways season. Those three seasons clearly fit together. They needed the flash forwards to have something to go sideways from, and they needed the time travel story to misdirect the audience from the true meaning of the sideways universe.

Now you might argue and I might agree that in season 6, the sideways universe could have been saved for just the last two or three episodes, as one final mind blowing mystery right before the finale, which would have allowed more time to resolve island mysteries, and that might have made for a much better show and still allowed the producers to use their precious purgatory ending. But it's clear from the referenced interview that the purgatory story was very important to them, and that's obviously why they gave it as much time as they did.

When you put it all together, it seems that the creators of Lost never really wanted to do a sci-fi, Star Trek type show. What they wanted to do was more of a Twilight Zone type show, but the fans made it clear they didn't want to watch dead people for multiple seasons, and so a change in direction was required. Because at the end of the day, fan interest is what keeps the bills paid and the lights on, and you can only take artistic arrogance so far.

Still, it's hard not to consider that the quality of writing, or lack thereof, in the season 6 island story, was partly a passive aggressive manifestation of the producers' resentment toward the sci-fi fan base for forcing them to at least partly repudiate the story they had originally intended to tell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bpeacock22 View Post

Damon Lindelof said in a tweet today, "LOST died two years ago today. And it was not dead the whole time... I promise. Thanks for remembering, gang."

Hope that puts any debate about them being dead the whole show to rest. Yes, during last season; no, the whole show. Silly notion...

More like dead in season 1, then resurrected in, let us say, the third season, and then dead again, and yet again risen, at the end.

I mean, what a strange tweet. How can you make a promise about the past? Is there perhaps a smoking gun original script locked away in a safe somewhere, and is he promising it will never see the light of day?
post #20962 of 21026
I got the the Blu-ray of the entire series for x-mas and just started re-watching with my 11 and 13 yr old boys who have never seen the show. Regardless of what you think of the ending, this is such an awesome show. We blew through the first 12 episodes in no time at all. After one episode my 11 year old went "No....it can't end there. We HAVE to watch another". My wife just laughed and said "Daddy and I used to have to wait a whole week"
post #20963 of 21026
I saw "This is 40" a couple of weeks ago, and I am tempted to rewatch Lost again. The daughter throughout the movie is watching every episode (which obviously takes a lot of time), and they show several scenes from the final episode that brought back memories. There are also some funny discussions between the daughter and her dad about the whole plot of the show.

It was a nice tribute to Lost.
post #20964 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by antneye View Post

I got the the Blu-ray of the entire series for x-mas and just started re-watching with my 11 and 13 yr old boys who have never seen the show. Regardless of what you think of the ending, this is such an awesome show. We blew through the first 12 episodes in no time at all. After one episode my 11 year old went "No....it can't end there. We HAVE to watch another". My wife just laughed and said "Daddy and I used to have to wait a whole week"
Please post back after they've seen the finale; I'll be interested in their opinions..
post #20965 of 21026
I will. I understand why some people didn't like the ending but I felt it was well done. I suspect my kids will feel the same way, but ya never know.
post #20966 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by antneye View Post

I understand why some people didn't like the ending but I felt it was well done.

+1. I don't understand all the hate about the Lost ending. After all they went through, it seemed rather logical. And I tend to like unanswered questions too, so...
post #20967 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by antneye View Post

I will. I understand why some people didn't like the ending but I felt it was well done. I suspect my kids will feel the same way, but ya never know.

Just skip to the end episodes of Season 5 and then watch Season 6. The last season's episodes take a totally orthogonal direction that makes nearly everything in preceding seasons irrelevant.
post #20968 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by philw1776 View Post

Just skip to the end episodes of Season 5 and then watch Season 6. The last season's episodes take a totally orthogonal direction that makes nearly everything in preceding seasons irrelevant.

+1. The whole series up to the last season was going in one direction, they they did a left turn into something entirely different and left everything behind that had come before. It's like they fired the whole writing staff and brought in a fresh batch of guys who hadn't even watched the previous 5 seasons.
post #20969 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

+1. The whole series up to the last season was going in one direction, they they did a left turn into something entirely different and left everything behind that had come before. It's like they fired the whole writing staff and brought in a fresh batch of guys who hadn't even watched the previous 5 seasons.

-1000000, but that is just my opinion. No need to convince others of how wrong they are wink.gif
post #20970 of 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

+1. The whole series up to the last season was going in one direction, they they did a left turn into something entirely different and left everything behind that had come before. It's like they fired the whole writing staff and brought in a fresh batch of guys who hadn't even watched the previous 5 seasons.

Thank you for solving THE biggest mystery of LOST...WTF happened to the series at the end. confused.gif

Now I finally know! smile.gif
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