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post #5851 of 20994
3/6/08 at 6:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

While we've been discussing the nuances of time travel and beating that horse to death, we've overlooked the strangest, most bizarre, most confounding mystery of all in last week's Desmond-centric episode "The Constant". And that is...

What the heck is up with Henry Ian Cusick's hair??

In the 1996 flashback scenes, his hair is military-cut short. We even see him without a hat and, yes, that hair is pretty short. Then, we seen him in 2004 and he's got his typical 8-12 inch long Island locks. That's got to be a year, maybe a year & a half difference in those hair lengths. How on earth are they managing that??! Is he wearing a wig on-Island? Wouldn't that get old (not to mention hot) after awhile?

There's one other possibility. Perhaps the producers are really sending Cusick back in time in order to be able to film those scenes. Maybe he has a time travel clause in his contract. Think about it.

LOL I was actually asking my GF about that when we watched it.

"How are they managing the short/long shaved/beard thing?!"
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post #5852 of 20994
3/6/08 at 8:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rantanamo View Post

none of this explains the black smoke monster

Nor the four-toed statue...
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post #5853 of 20994
3/6/08 at 8:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by petergaryr View Post

Hey, with Lost the messier the better, right?

Given how this show has set up the tension between Science (e.g. a Jack type) and Faith (e.g. a Locke type) a certain amount of overlap is inevitable.

With all the comments around "it's not supposed to be this way" and the like, that smacks of "fate" or "pre-destination". It would suggest the universe has some form of self-correction built into it if someone strays off the path of a pre-determined outcome. So, if Charlie is "supposed" to die, no amount of intervention by Desmond or others will matter, because he will eventually die, no matter what. That is a Final Destination view. You can try to cheat it, but when your time is up, well....game over.

If free will is possible, then we have to accept that there is a possibility to change the future by making a self-induced course correction. In one quantum timeline, one result happens as a result of that...in another...a different outcome. However, if we believe the producers (and why wouldn't we...they never lie or mis-direct), there are no multiple timelines. Yet, then it becomes difficult to explain, as others have tried, to account for the "it's not supposed to be this way" references.

Either you have free will, and the choices that you make matter and affect future outcomes as a result of that, or you are merely a chess piece being moved around on a board, or a puppet. No matter what you do, a pre-determined fate awaits you .

A thoughtful response which has confirmed your position as a man of faith and science (or at least science fiction).

Here’s my problem with course correction in this context. The instances of “free will” in the story of LOST are usually bastardized, to the extent that pre-determination seems to have ‘cooked the books’ in most instances. It compromises the notion of free will by limiting and re-directing potential options. The morality/nobility of various forms of free will, including the determination of self-sacrifice is diluted once you’ve been provided with convincing divining signs that your fate has already been sealed through pre-determination. A “self-induced” ‘course correction’ in the circumstances that have been presented in this series to date, offer little more opportunity for self-determination than the choice between a rock and a hard place.

Jack finally decides to exert his ‘free will’ by jumping off the bridge in the flash-forward, only to have ‘course correction’ pre-determination reverse his resolve by appealing to his sensibilities as a ‘healer’. Charlie has had sufficient proof from Desmond, that no matter what he does, he’s going to die and die very shortly. I would have rather seen Charlie make his difficult determination based upon his own moral judgments and his feelings for Claire and Aaron, rather than a “what-the-Hell, I’m going to buy the farm any second now anyway” scenario. He was not afforded a clear choice, the free will to make that decision because he had already been assured he was a ‘dead man walking’. I think free will should be premised upon a reasonable choice, and not a Kobiyashi Maru..

Quote:


Lost continues to fascinate me in its ability to combine social, physical and metaphysical concepts into an hour of commercial television....that then sparks a thread like this one.

On that, we are heartily in agreement.

______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind
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post #5854 of 20994
3/6/08 at 8:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

What the heck is up with Henry Ian Cusick's hair??

In the 1996 flashback scenes, his hair is military-cut short. We even see him without a hat and, yes, that hair is pretty short. Then, we seen him in 2004 and he's got his typical 8-12 inch long Island locks. That's got to be a year, maybe a year & a half difference in those hair lengths. How on earth are they managing that??! Is he wearing a wig on-Island? Wouldn't that get old (not to mention hot) after awhile?

As a point of reference, I submit actress Alison Arngrim.

She played the role of Nellie Oleson on "Little House on the Prarie" for several seasons....in a wig. Her real hair is only seen once in the entire series in an episode where she, well, gets a wig in order to play Jo in "Little Women". Her real hair was completely straight, so she had to wear a wig in order to have those trademark curls.

And yes, it was hot and uncomfortable in the California sun, especially when you add in the heavy dresses she wore for the role.

The use of wigs is more common than you might think. Barney Clark, for example, wore one for nearly the entire production of "Oliver Twist" (and that ignores the heavy makeup and wig Ben Kingsley wore as Fagin).

Despite having the appropriate haircut for the part, I've worn wigs in stage productions in order to avoid dying my hair. Literally, it appeared to be the exact same hair style - just black (both times). One part was pretty physically active, so the wig really had to be well attached. As a result, the pins and glues were rather uncomfortable. One other role, though, was the opposite. I had to be bald - and there was no way I was shaving my head. The artist who made me up was a genius, though, and you really couldn't tell - even up close. I've seen many "bald jobs" that looked aweful.
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post #5855 of 20994
3/6/08 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdr25 View Post

It was fear of this kind of response that kept me from posting this theory in the first place.



Aaay!!

Exactly my feelings too ! That's why I am cautious about telling my theory ...
Got to prepare ground work for it to be taken properly.
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post #5856 of 20994
3/6/08 at 9:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdr25 View Post

The way I see it, 2004 Des gets unstuck and drifts into 1996 Des's body. 1996 Des's consciousness takes over, and he can't remember any experiences between 1996 and the first unsticking. Until he finds his anchor. This is consistent with everything I said in my original post.

I think from the point the copter hit the storm, till Desmond ended his phone call to Penny, 2004 Desmond lay dormant, and it was 1996 Desmond we saw all through the episode (including 1996 Desmond's consciousness in 2004 Des's body)
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post #5857 of 20994
3/6/08 at 9:31am
How come 1996 Desmond, Walt's Dog & the Black rock are never shown in the same scene at the same time .....
Because Walt's Dog is not only Jacob, but he is the Black Rock & 1996 Desmond as well.
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post #5858 of 20994
3/6/08 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by akSun View Post

I think from the point the copter hit the storm, till Desmond ended his phone call to Penny, 2004 Desmond lay dormant, and it was 1996 Desmond we saw all through the episode (including 1996 Desmond's consciousness in 2004 Des's body)

Except that the episode opened on Desmond in the helicopter, acting like his normal 2004 self. When he makes the first jump into the barracks, he vividly remembered the helicopter. It was the vestiges of his 2004 consciousness that had jumped into his 1996 self, only to be subsumed by his 1996 consciousness. If the episode had started in the barracks, I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

Not that I think it matters at all one way or the other, which is why I avoided going to that level of detail in my prior post.

Also, I wasn't advocating my smoke monster/Fonzie theory. Just pointing out that it is possible to wrap all kinds of things into the time travel angle, if you are willing to get convoluted enough. But currently I do think many of the island's mysteries can be explained by time travel, in varying degrees.

Of course, two weeks ago I was certain it was all due to ghosts, and now they seem to be totally out of the picture. By 10 tonight I'll be on to my next "sure thing". Probably aliens. Or Jebus. (Almost rhymes with Cerberus. Coincidence? I think not! )
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post #5859 of 20994
3/6/08 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdr25 View Post

Of course, two weeks ago I was certain it was all due to ghosts, and now they seem to be totally out of the picture. By 10 tonight I'll be on to my next "sure thing". Probably aliens. Or Jebus. (Almost rhymes with Cerberus. Coincidence? I think not! )

Nah, it's because all those folks are doing "the drugs".

Watch "Reefer Madness" for a primer on just exactly what is going on with "Lost".
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post #5860 of 20994
3/6/08 at 10:09am
Sorry to go back to timing issues, but ...
So if you think the space is folded at the island barrier, and 40 minute travel is actually 20 hour travel normally, do you say that the freighter is actually (20*60*40)/40 = 1200 miles away from the island ?
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post #5861 of 20994
3/6/08 at 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by akSun View Post

Sorry to go back to timing issues, but ...
So if you think the space is folded at the island barrier, and 40 minute travel is actually 20 hour travel normally, do you say that the freighter is actually (20*60*40)/40 = 1200 miles away from the island ?

I don't think so.. The shift seems to be isolated within the barrier itself, so once you exit the barrier, you are exiting into our "normal" space/time, but have been shifted "x" hours from when you entered the anomoly.
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post #5862 of 20994
3/6/08 at 10:16am
Perhaps the barrier takes you on a long winding trip like a roller coaster shaped wormhole rather than jumping across folded space. So, the distance travelling through the barrier is miles, while the barrier itself is only a few hundred yards deep.

Maybe the producers got the idea from the inside of a Bose Wave Radio...
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post #5863 of 20994
3/6/08 at 10:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

Perhaps the barrier takes you on a long winding trip like a roller coaster shaped wormhole rather than jumping across folded space. So, the distance travelling through the barrier is miles, while the barrier itself is only a few hundred yards deep.

Maybe the producers got the idea from the inside of a Bose Wave Radio...

Or maybe, you (and they) have become so conditioned by the media, from The Black Hole to Stargate and beyond, to expect some kind of a vortex funnel shape in space for dramatic effect, instead of a plain black hole through which no light emerges.

____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind
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post #5864 of 20994
3/6/08 at 10:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by akSun View Post

So if you think the space is folded...

Not space. Space-time. Throw out your cartesian assumptions that traveling at a fixed speed s for a fixed time t will cause you to travel s*t distance, relative to all reference frames. It ain't happen'.

Are you really having this much trouble accepting that the helicopter simply jumped forward in time a few hours?
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post #5865 of 20994
3/6/08 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdr25 View Post

Are you really having this much trouble accepting that the helicopter simply jumped forward in time a few hours?

I have no trouble accepting that ... my quest is to understand - why ?
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post #5866 of 20994
3/6/08 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by akSun View Post

I have no trouble accepting that ... my quest is to understand - why ?


Ok. Let me start explaining string theory to you...........
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post #5867 of 20994
3/6/08 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by antneye View Post

Ok. Let me start explaining string theory to you...........

who said you don't need help of a physicist to understand LOST ?
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post #5868 of 20994
3/6/08 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by akSun View Post

Read the article ... interestingly, it says exactly opposite of what has been said in this discussion -

I'd argue that the article doesn't really say the opposite of what's been said in the discussion. That New Scientist article merely suggests that if travel takes place along a different dimension, it's possible to travel the distance from point A to point B faster than light could travel from point A to point B in our dimensions. They then point out (mistakenly IMNSHO), that since it's "faster than light travel", that depending on your frame of reference, it can be seen as traveling backwards in time. (And I'd said mistakenly before because I'd argue that though greater distances have been covered, nothing has actually been accelerated to FTL speeds or moved at FTL speeds, and as such special relativity hasn't quite been violated.)

In any case, by traveling through the "bulk" (from the NS article), it's possible for the trip to take both longer or shorter depending on the path taken. But how do we tie this in to our LOST universe? Playing a little loose and taking artistic license with actual physics, we place an unstable point singularity somewhere on the island, in an adjacent dimension in the bulk. The affects of which are manifested only at points where the dimensions are in phase (hence the bubble). The instability was previously being offset by entering the numbers, but now that they're no longer being entered, we're seeing the effects worsening. And here's how I predict they'll end the series, with our heroes returning to the island to stabilize things and save our universe.
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post #5869 of 20994
3/6/08 at 1:11pm
Many "faster than light" TV shows/movies use a variation of this.
Example:
Imagine 2 parallel hallways, seperated by a wall.
1 hallway is "our" universe. The other is another universe or dimension, & there are doors along the hallway connecting the 2 when opened & passed thru..
If one could step thru a door to the other hallway, you would be in a dimension or universe where "our" laws of physics don't apply.. so you could enter & then quickly exit back "1 door over", but into to a far point that would have normally required FTL travel in our universe alone, or enter/exit in a way that makes your re-entry into a time that is far greater or far less than what your perception was ....
When various shows say "Drop out of warp", or "open a hyperspace window" , ect ...the psudoScience behind it is usually a variation of "entering" hyperspace (this "other" relm, the other hallway, where the laws of physics are different), & then exiting Hyperspace an hour later & being 45 light years away (re-entering "our" hallway).
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post #5870 of 20994
3/6/08 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by O2C View Post

In any case, by traveling through the "bulk" (from the NS article), it's possible for the trip to take both longer or shorter depending on the path taken. But how do we tie this in to our LOST universe? Playing a little loose and taking artistic license with actual physics, we place an unstable point singularity somewhere on the island, in an adjacent dimension in the bulk. The affects of which are manifested only at points where the dimensions are in phase (hence the bubble). The instability was previously being offset by entering the numbers, but now that they're no longer being entered, we're seeing the effects worsening. And here's how I predict they'll end the series, with our heroes returning to the island to stabilize things and save our universe.

Those are my EXACT thoughts !
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post #5871 of 20994
3/6/08 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

While we've been discussing the nuances of time travel and beating that horse to death, we've overlooked the strangest, most bizarre, most confounding mystery of all in last week's Desmond-centric episode "The Constant". And that is...

What the heck is up with Henry Ian Cusick's hair??

In the 1996 flashback scenes, his hair is military-cut short. We even see him without a hat and, yes, that hair is pretty short. Then, we seen him in 2004 and he's got his typical 8-12 inch long Island locks. That's got to be a year, maybe a year & a half difference in those hair lengths. How on earth are they managing that??! Is he wearing a wig on-Island? Wouldn't that get old (not to mention hot) after awhile?

There's one other possibility. Perhaps the producers are really sending Cusick back in time in order to be able to film those scenes. Maybe he has a time travel clause in his contract. Think about it.

well i saw him in real life last year at the local sushi shop (the waitress had a hard time understanding his request for "watah"). it's possible that he was on his way home from filming and still had the wig on but it looked pretty real to me. maybe they filmed all the long hair scenes first and then shaved him down for the short hair scenes.

and maybe all the radiation will make his hair fall out completely this season.
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post #5872 of 20994
3/6/08 at 1:49pm
It's also possible that now that he is back in "civilization," he may go back to the "high and tight" look again.

Problem solved for the writers.
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post #5873 of 20994
3/6/08 at 1:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by O2C View Post

I'd argue that the article doesn't really say the opposite of what's been said in the discussion. That New Scientist article merely suggests that if travel takes place along a different dimension, it's possible to travel the distance from point A to point B faster than light could travel from point A to point B in our dimensions.

When I quoted from the article, I guess I should have left out the part "faster than light". What I said about the article as opposing view to the discussion here is that, quoting again from the article:
Quote:


This has dramatic consequences for inhabitants stuck on the brane. To them, any entity that takes a short cut through the bulk appears to vanish and then pops up again at some point on the brane far sooner than it could have had it kept to the brane.

If you check back couple of pages on this board, we talked about folding a paper and point X, Y etc.
Referring to those symbols, an argument was made that if two teams leave from X, one jumping to Y though hyperspace and the other travelling along the paper, both would reach Y at the same time (I think this is incorrect). And if the teams would call back X upon reaching Y, people at X would get calls exactly at the same time from both the teams.
The article clearly states that for the people at X, the team jumping to Y "reached sooner than it could have had it kept to the brane". I think this is correct. I think the team jumping will reach Y in 5 minutes and the team travelling along the paper will reach in 60 minutes.
This makes it feel as though the team jumping had travelled faster than light, though in reality, it did not. But for all practicle purposes, for the people at X and Y, it could as well have travelled fater than light, because travelling at the speed of light along the paper, it takes 60 minutes to reach Y whereas by jumping, the team completed the travel in just 5 minutes.
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post #5874 of 20994
3/6/08 at 2:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatChicken View Post

Many "faster than light" TV shows/movies use a variation of this.
Example:
Imagine 2 parallel hallways, seperated by a wall.
1 hallway is "our" universe. The other is another universe or dimension, & there are doors along the hallway connecting the 2 when opened & passed thru..
If one could step thru a door to the other hallway, you would be in a dimension or universe where "our" laws of physics don't apply.. so you could enter & then quickly exit back "1 door over", but into to a far point that would have normally required FTL travel in our universe alone, or enter/exit in a way that makes your re-entry into a time that is far greater or far less than what your perception was ....
When various shows say "Drop out of warp", or "open a hyperspace window" , ect ...the psudoScience behind it is usually a variation of "entering" hyperspace (this "other" relm, the other hallway, where the laws of physics are different), & then exiting Hyperspace an hour later & being 45 light years away (re-entering "our" hallway).

I perfectly agree with everything you said here. Where we differ is -
When you jump into hyperspace, what was the time for the people at your destination ? I think according to them as well as for you, you jumped 1 hour ago and not 45 light years ago.
Suppose you jump to the other hallaway and I continue in the same hallway and I am travelling at the speed of light, when you emerge from the other hallway, will you find me there ?
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post #5875 of 20994
3/6/08 at 2:16pm
Think of the folded paper you are holding as time instead of space. Punch through it. Voila, you've arrived much later than you left, regardless of your local velocity or your physical distance traveled. To people traveling normally through time (along the paper), you disappeared and then reappeared much later.

God I hope tonight's episode has nothing to do with time travel, just so the topic can be mercifully put to rest for at least a few days.
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post #5876 of 20994
3/6/08 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdr25 View Post

Think of the folded paper you are holding as time instead of space. Punch through it. Voila, you've arrived much later than you left, regardless of your local velocity or your physical distance traveled. To people traveling normally through time (along the paper), you disappeared and then reappeared much later.

Didn't I say the same thing ? The question is: how much later ?

Quote:


God I hope tonight's episode has nothing to do with time travel, just so the topic can be mercifully put to rest for at least a few days.

If you really feel so ... but remember, I'll be back !
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post #5877 of 20994
3/6/08 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by akSun View Post

The question is: how much later ?

But...but...before you said the question was "why".

At least you managed to keep the thread rolling during the week, even if you didn't actually say anything. I'm done indulging you for the day. Let's see what tonight's episode brings.
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post #5878 of 20994
3/6/08 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by akSun View Post

Didn't I say the same thing ? The question is: how much later ?

If you really feel so ... but remember, I'll be back !

Great. We're all looking forward to your theory that is so complex, it apparently can only be explained through other people's comments.

__________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind
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post #5879 of 20994
3/6/08 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palladin View Post

A thoughtful response which has confirmed your position as a man of faith and science (or at least science fiction).

Here's my problem with course correction in this context. The instances of free will in the story of LOST are usually bastardized, to the extent that pre-determination seems to have cooked the books' in most instances. It compromises the notion of free will by limiting and re-directing potential options. The morality/nobility of various forms of free will, including the determination of self-sacrifice is diluted once you've been provided with convincing divining signs that your fate has already been sealed through pre-determination. A self-induced course correction' in the circumstances that have been presented in this series to date, offer little more opportunity for self-determination than the choice between a rock and a hard place.

Jack finally decides to exert his free will' by jumping off the bridge in the flash-forward, only to have course correction' pre-determination reverse his resolve by appealing to his sensibilities as a healer'. Charlie has had sufficient proof from Desmond, that no matter what he does, he's going to die and die very shortly. I would have rather seen Charlie make his difficult determination based upon his own moral judgments and his feelings for Claire and Aaron, rather than a what-the-Hell, I'm going to buy the farm any second now anyway scenario. He was not afforded a clear choice, the free will to make that decision because he had already been assured he was a dead man walking'. I think free will should be premised upon a reasonable choice, and not a Kobiyashi Maru..


On that, we are heartily in agreement.

______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

An equally valid, thoughtful post.

What gets me confused about the show is that the writers seem to be vacillating between the two. One week it seems that "fate" is what is at work, the next "free will".

However, I give the show a wide latitude, even during the times it appears to meander or is inconsistent in its construct. It still gives me enough entertainment and intellectual stimulation to keep coming back for more.

It is unfortunate that there are a number of people in my circle of friends who have never even given Lost a try....and some of them are even avid science fiction fans. Then again, I resisted Babylon 5 until its fifth and last season. At least I had the good sense to eventually buy the DVDs of the complete series and realize my mistake. I am, however, still trying to figure out how Delenn wound up on this particular island and why John Sheridan hasn't found her yet.....unless he is stuck in that darn wormhole.
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post #5880 of 20994
3/6/08 at 3:54pm
Thread Starter 
My detailed analysis:

Cool show, great storylines (again), can't wait for the next episode (again).

I'm happy.
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