DRA-01601A: DVD Recorder with 160GB Hard Drive Info - Page 9

I think you're confusing what 16x9 means. Most people don't fully understand what 16x9 means and what is it does and doesn't do. 16x9 is the aspect "ratio", the vertical height of the picture as opposed to the horizontal length. It has nothing to do with the size or resolution of the picture. A couple of common resolutions that 16x9 come in is 720x480p (DVD) and 1080i (broadcast TV) When 16x9 HD movies or programs are broadcast for TV they are sent in 1 "resolution" or size, not in 5 or 6 different "resolutions" or sizes. However, HDTV sets come in several "resolutions" or sizes. A 60" widescreen HDTVs resolution will be different from, say, a 32" widescreen HDTV. But Television Stations broadcast in only 1 resolution. That's where the HDTV set's software comes in. It takes the "Native" resolution of the broadcast and converts it to the resolution of the HDTV set. All widescreen HDTV sets (whether LCD, LCOS, Plasma or DLP) have "Picture" and/or "Zoom" modes for doing that very thing, converting the "Native" resolution (whether from DVD - 720x480 or from broadcast - usually 1080i ) to the resolution of the particular widescreen HDTV you have so you will have a 16x9 "ratio" picture that fills your screen properly and people and objects are not squeezed from any side. Some HDTVs do it automatically (default) and some will display the "Native" resolution (a 16x9 display that only fills maybe 2 thirds of the screen) and let you adjust the picture mode (resolution conversion) manually to your liking. I have a 32" LCD HDTV widescreen that has a resolution of 1368i and a high end HDTV widescreen projector system with a resolution of 1280i on a 120" screen. The 32" LCD displays the 16x9 in the broadcast "Native" resolution and I have to use the pic/zoom mode on the remote to fill the screen. My projection system will take the same 16x9 HDTV broadcast and automatically convert to the projectors 1280i res and properly fill the screen whether its set to 70" or 120".

Anyway, what I am saying is that the unit records in the native 16x9 "aspect ratio". Whether it fills your TVs widescreen is dependant on a couple factors, the resolution of your TV and whether it converts the boadcast resolution automatically or you have to do it manually with your "Picture Mode" on your remote. In other words, its not the recorder that "letterboxes", its the TV that does it. If a recorder is not capable of recording in 16x9 it won't record in widescreen and set it as letterbox, rather you will get a 4x3 aspect ratio (a square box) picture with people and objects squeezed. I'm sure you already knew most of this, I just couldn't explain it without going into detail.

DrBrain- great post. I have a projector and your post made a lot of what it offers in aspects clear.

I understand aspect ratios, resolutions and the difference between them. Here's what I'm saying:

If this unit records black bars at the top and bottom of the frame in order to preserve the original aspect ratio of the broadcast, it's a terrible waste of resolution and it's going to look awful if you then use the zoom feature of your TV to get the picture to fill the screen and eliminate the black bars that were recorded.

Yep, if anyone still doesn't understand it, this explains it in more digestible terms

That's what I'm trying to explain. The unit is NOT recording black bars. The HD channel you're recording from is NOT broadcasting black bars. It is the HDTV set that is displaying black bars top and bottom and/or sides to compensate for the broadcast and/or recorded resolution that doesn't match the HDTV set's native resolution. Therefore, the HDTV set's software intelligently converts the broadcast or recorded display to its own "Native" resolution by the Picture modes stretch, enhance, zoom, whatever its called. Example: The default (Normal)picture mode on my 32" LCD is to display the broadcast (1080i) or DVDs (720p) native resolution on its 1368i screen. So, if its picture mode is set to "Normal", whether playing a DVD, viewing an HD channel broadcasting in wide aspect or viewing an SD channel broadcasting in 4x3 I will have an image not filling my 1368i display. Depending on what I'm viewing I will set the picture mode to Normal, Wide, Panoramic or Zoom (not the same as the old digital zoom that was useless and looked like crap). My satellite HD receiver, 32" LCD HD widescreen and LCD Projector all have picture modes to compensate and when used the picture fills the 16x9 screen and is perfectly sharp, not blocked or pixelated as the image is merely being converted to whatever the HDTV set's native resolution is (1368i - 1280i or whatever). Now, if you zoom beyond the TV set's native resolution, which some HDTVs are capable of doing (a totally useless feature) then, and only then, will you begin to see image degradation. The following quote is from this link:

http://www.dvdreview.com/html/lingo.shtml

"Anamorphic, 16x9 enhanced:
Since 16x9 screens have a widescreen ratio themselves, they do not have to bother about the black bars at the top and bottom of a widescreen movie and can thus "stretch" the image to use the full height of the display."

This quote is what I've been saying. A 16x9 HDTV has intelligent software that converts or "stretches" the native resolution of a broadcast or DVD picture to its own native resolution to nicely fill its screen. Many high end 16x9 TVs have software that will even take a 4x3 SD broadcast and intelligently convert or stretch the resolution to fill the screen and still not have people that look squashed or skinny.

Bought one just yesterday. Works as expected. A little distortion on a few chanels, but most goes away when I plug directly into the main wall cable. Has anyone actually TRIED accessing an SD chip via the front slot? I've tried 2 different ones and neither seems to show up under the Files menu. I can get it to recognize and read a USB flash drive fine, but it just seems to ignore the still camera SD 1Gb chips with jpgs. Is there a trick to it? Am I doing something wrong? I've tried all different combinations of exiting and reentering the menu, etc. Do I need to send it in for service already?

DrBrain: so you're saying that this unit correctly records the anamorphic signal and sets the flag properly on widescreen material?

I've lost track of the discussion but I returned the phillips because it was adding black bars to anamorphic programs creating a nonanamorphic recording.

Thanks! That's what I was trying to figure out. I thought, based on previous comments, that that's what it did.

Ok, let's try this. I recorded a concert on RaveHD that broadcasts in 1080i HD 16x9. I put the DVD in the Polaroid and play back. In my 32" TVs "Normal" Picture mode the screen is not full (black all around) and not letterboxed (full right and left but not top and bottom). I freeze the image and it measures about 22" wide and about 12" top to bottom. That is a 16x9 aspect ratio image! Recorded by the Polaroid! Now wait a minute, you say, that sucks 'cuz its not filling your screen, so it must not be 16x9! But of course its not filling my screen because it was broadcast and/or recorded in a resolution that doesn't match the TV screen's 1366i resolution. You can't get full screen unless you are viewing or recording in the same resolution as your TV is displaying. Even if I had a 1080i High Definition recorder the recorded image would still not fill my 1366i resolution screen! Thats the job of the widescreen TVs picture modes. That's why just viewing an HD channel (without a recorder) broadcasting in 16x9 won't fill the screen without using the TVs picture modes. When recording, whether it fills the TV screen is irrelevant! The only thing that matters is when you record a 16x9 ratio picture does the image shape come out in 16x9 ratio showing wide and proper shape of people and objects. If it doesn't because its not capable of recording in 16x9 (many recorders are not capable of recording 16x9 image correctly) then the picture modes may fill the screen but not completely properly or show correct shaped of people and objects.

Btw, I was passing through and picked up the new Philips at the Winslow, AZ Super Wal-Mart "Well, Im standin' on the corner in Winslow, AZ...." Sorry. Anyway, I'm going to do a side by side with these units the next 3 days.

I'll be interested to hear how the results of a 16:9 recording compare on the Philips.

Just to clarify, you do have a 16:9 TV, right?

Resolution should have nothing to do with it. It's the picture will either be 4:3 or anamorphic 16:9. The TV will actually never be the source of the "black bars" except in cases where a 4:3 picture is broadcast by a digital station, in which case the broadcast is specifically flagged as being 4:3. Not all digital 4:3 broadcasts include the flag. For example, a local PBS station is digital, but not HD. They do not include the flag and if you don't specifically tell a 16:9 TV to squeeze the picture to 4:3, it will be distorted. When they broadcast widescreen content, it is letterboxed by the broadcaster to fit a 4:3 TV. Based on everything that everyone else here and a few other places has said, if you record 16:9 content on the polaroid, it will be letterboxed by the unit and the bars above and below are part of the recorded image. Put the resulting DVD into a PC and play it back in a window (not full screen), you'll see the bars are there and the complete image, including the bars, is 4:3.

In contrast, the Philips records the entire 16:9 image in the frame. If you play it back on a 16:9 TV in its default mode, it will fill the screen regardless of resolution. If, however, you put that DVD into a PC, you will see the entire image squeezed into a 4:3 frame because the anamorphic flag is not set. Otherwise it would play back in a 16:9 frame.

I think you'll see the difference when you try recording a widescreen broadcast on the Philips.

Yes, both my 32" and my Panasonic Projector are 16x9 HD widescreens. However,
it seems I owe you a bit of an opology. Let me explain. I just got through playing with both these recorders and the Philips is out of here, going back to Wal-Nuts. The Polaroid is definitely staying. I also talked to 2 techs at Panasonic and Hitachi (I used to have a Hitachi 65" HD widescreen and the techs always knew their stuff).

I noticed when viewing and recording with the new Philips on a HD 16:9 broadcast in my TVs normal mode the image was 4:3 and there were horizontal black bars! I'm like, what? I didn't see that on the new Polaroid! I used the picture modes and it filled the screen ok but it just didn't look as good as the polaroid. I looked through the Philips manual and on page 42 there is this statement in a large "Note" box at the bottom of the page:

"This unit cannot record images as aspect ratio of 16:9. The 16:9 images will be recorded as 4:3."

Ok, I'm thinking why would the Philips not record proper 16:9 and the Polaroid will. I must be wrong about the Polaroid. So I hooked the Polaroid back up and I realized that, besides the picture being cleaner, sharper and the colors looking better, the black was blacker. So much so that I didn't see that I was, in fact, looking at a 4:3 image with black bars top and bottom! When using the picture mode it filled the screen perfectly and looked way better than the Philips, natural, sharp and clean. It looks like a natural perfect 16:9 image. Both the Panasonic and the Hitachi tech told me the same thing, that they know of no recorder that records 16:9 aspect. Why? Because the only 16:9 broadcasts are HD and the only recorders that will record 16:9 will be the comming (and very expensive) HD recorders. The Hitachi tech also told me that it shouldn't really be that big of a deal as long as your TVs picture mode does a good job of converting to 16:9 (he says Hitachi does it the best, of course) and your recorder does a good job of dispalying and recording a sharp clean image, which he says is not easy to find among brands. He asked me "don't you have to adjust the picture mode on your TV when viewing an HD channel broadcasting in 16:9 to display it properly?" I said yea. He said, "so whats the big deal if you have to do the same when viewing through your recorder, as long as the result is of good clean quality? Its either that or cough up $1,200-$1,500 for a good HD recorder and get true 16:9 recording" I think I'll wait awhile.

And sorry for being wrong about the Polaroid.

I will say this. After going back and forth with them the Polaroid pissed all over the Philips. I hate to say this because I hate Polaroid. The bastages have no QC and in fact have probably never tried one out themselves. Nevertheless, after returning the first one this one seems to work quite well. The Philips picture was not nearly as clean and sharp as the Polar on an HD channel and on a SD channel it was a bit crappy. The Philips recording quality was not as good as the Polar but the recording looked better than just viewing the channel through it, which is odd. The Polar has better features. With the Philips you can't see where you're at when going back and forward using timeshifting like on the Polar. A lot of functions on the Philips work without showing you that its doing it. The Polaroid shows you almost everything that you're doing with it on screen. The Philips remote worked better but not by a lot. I know we all have different needs and wants in this regard. I don't use the tuner since I have Satellite so my main concern is picture and recording quality and timeshift features. I've had Lite-On, Pioneer, Panasonic, RCA, Polaroid and Philips the past 4 years. And I have to say, feature for feature, picture and recording quality, this Polaroid is the best performing unit for what it does that I've ever had. And its as quite as a mouse! This Polaroid has got to be a fluke! The only question for me now, is, how long is this bloody thing going to work properly. Who knows.

The TV can be the source of the black bars, it just depends on your TV. I recorded a couple minutes of a 16x9 PBS broadcast to a DVD+RW from the Philips QAM tuner. Playing back on the PC it displays at 720x480, 4x3, everything looks squished but there are no black bars. How it looks on my 16x9 TV depends on which display mode the TV is set. 1:1 gives black bars on all 4 sides, aspect gives black bars left and right, full screen is the correct display mode and fills the screen with no black bars. then there's panoramic, zoom 1 and zoom 2 which also fill the screen but aren't appropriate for this video.

I don't have the Polaroid to test but its seems you're saying if I did exactly the same as above on the Polaroid, playing back on the PC the video would again be 720x480 but there would be black bars top and bottom and things wouldn't look squished. Playing on my TV I would likely get even larger black bars top and bottom when displayed 1:1, black bars on all 4 sides in aspect, bars top and bottom only in full screen and zoom 1 would be the correct display mode to make it fill the screen.

There is a lot of misconception going on here.

Every frame of every DVD you own is 720 x 480 pixels (in NTSC anyway)
(real DVDs - I'm not talking about DivX or VCDs or things like that)
always
no exceptions

4x3 images fill the entire 720 x 480.
1.78 images also fill the entire 720 x 480.
Note that 720 x 480 is not equal to either 16x9 or 4x3; both are scaled.
The player and display, if set correctly, give you back the correct result.

Your TV being 768 or 1080 is irrelevant.

Whether it is fullscreen, old widescreen (letterboxed), or modern anamorphic, every frame is 720 x 480.

Now, you set your DVD player for what type of TV you have. You set your display for what to do with what it is sent. This combination affects what you see.

Here is the issue that concerns some of us.
A widescreen 16x9 HD broadcast should be scaled to use all 720 x 480 pixels. It is then correctly re-scaled on playback if your player and display are set correctly.

If instead the recorder squeezes the 16x9 image into a 16x9 letterboxed 4x3 image, you would indeed be throwing away resolution recording bars.

I hope that makes things more clear.

Mike

PS
I know firsthand that the LG RC797T, Panny EZ37, and Maggie 450/8 (~) all correctly record and play a 16:9 filling the 720x480.

That's exactly what I was trying to describe above. They're both 720x480 but the Philips fills the entire 720x480 with the video and the Polaroid keeps the aspect ratio of the video within that 720x480 and leaves black bars top and bottom. If that's correct then it seems the Philips would be the preferred method. Though either way you can still get black bars on your TV depending on the display mode.

DrBrain, I was still writing my previous post when you left your last, what display modes does your TV have and which is necessary to make the Polaroids picture fill the screen?

mkjnovak. Thanks! That's what I was trying to get across. I just wasn't articulating it well at all.

So I can "cough up $1,200-$1,500 for a good HD recorder and get true 16:9 recording"?

Here I am with my $1500, ready to lay it down or even cough it up. Where's the good HD recorder that will record in true 16:9?

Note, it looks like you and I were typing at the same time.
I was more responding to DrB's screen re-sizing thoughts.

Of course filling the frame is ideal, but one recorder might have a better tuner and de/en/coders and have a more pleasing picture even if not doing everything ideally. Note I don't own either the Philips or the Polaroid, but both have been in consideration on my quest for my next recorder. I may yet try the 5575 or the 5545.


Thanks.
I hoped I explained it well; it can be so hard to describe pictures with words.

So often people seem unclear on aspect ratios, widescreen recording, and the difference between recording the picture correctly and actually setting the flag. There doesn't seem to be one clear all-encompassing sticky on the subject. If I missed it please let me know.

Take care,
Mike

Dude, if you read my post you'll see in the middle I said "will be the comming (and very expensive") as in they're not here yet. They're already in Asia and when they hit the states the projected initial retail will be 1200-1500 bones, maybe more. So when they do come out the end of this year or 1st quarter next I expect to read a post from you aknowledging you "coughed up" your 1,500 bones for one.

bondiablo:
My TV has Normal, Wide, Panoramic, Zoom. The Zoom mode has one setting and is not for zooming the picture as in digital zoom. The manual says its for other aspect ratios like 16:9 to properly fill the screen. As mkjnovak says it's "scaling" it to display properly. But then that was my point from the start, is that a 16:9 HD broadcast has to be "scaled" or "converted" to display properly on whatever TV you have. And as mkjnovak said its losing some for not recording 16:9 but, for now, just how much and whether it makes enough of a difference to throw up on I don't think so. I mean I pic mode the thing to fill my 16:9 screen and it looks clean. It doesn't look zoomed or jacked or something.

mkjnovak:
Thanks for the clarification! Its too bad this industry makes things so complicated that even people who do understand this tech stuff find it hard to explain it in words that the average Joe Sixpack can understand.
When I mention the tech said he knows of no recorder that records 16:9 properly I was talking about hdd recorders since thats basically what this thread is about and I'm only interested in, although he may have been talking about all DVD recorders, I don't know. However, if you check the Panasonic pdf manual (on the Panny site) for the EZ37 on page 13 you'll see that it, in fact, does NOT record 16:9 to DVD. Only 4:3. It does record 16:9 to VHS. Useless. To me anyway.

Zoom is doing more than just scaling the image, it's cutting off part of the picture to make a letterboxed video fill the screen. Not all widescreen TVs even have a zoom, I found that out the hard way when I was first shopping for them, so it sounds like some people would never be able to watch 16x9 recordings from the Polaroid without black bars.

I know this is going to sound pompous, but the manual is wrong, or at least misleading. I think they must mean it doesn't set the widescreen flag, which is different than not recording 16:9.

So it's bad enough if one of us can't explain it to another. Even the manufacturers and manual writers don't get it right or clear sometimes.

I promise you I had the EZ37. It recorded 16:9 to the full 720x480.
I returned it for other reasons.

I now have the Mag 450/8 (give or take). It also correctly records 16:9 though the manual for it says it does not. Again, no flag setting.

The flag doesn't bother me. If a recording is just to catch a show while I'm out, who cares? If it's a keeper it goes to the PC for re-authoring anyway.

You only lose one thing without the flag.
A DVD player feeding a 4:3 TV will not know to letterbox or pan&scan it. It will feed the whole frame unaltered to the TV which will fill the screen with it.
Result: tall thin people.
Your PC will think it is 4:3 as well.

Mike

Ok, I just figured out something interesting with the Philips. In General Settings under Video you set the TV Aspect to 4:3 Letter Box, 4:3 Pan & Scan or 16:9 Wide. I had been recording with it set to 16:9 Wide. When set to Wide it records 16:9 video full screen, filling the entire 720x480 with the picture. When set to PS the picture fills the screen but the sides are cut off. When set to LB it records the same way people seem to be saying the Polaroid records, retaining the aspect ratio and leaving black bars top and bottom, letterboxing it. I wonder if the Polaroid does the same thing when it's display setting is changed?

Dr. Brain- Wouldn't a simple way to see if either is doing what some think they are doing would be to transfer a 16:9 hd program to disk from each recorder and play it on your computer?

If the computer pictures are the same on both then they are recording exactly the same and the rest is being done by the TV.

The polaroid will not record an anamorphic broadcast in anamorphic. It will either add black bars to the top and bottom creating a 16x9 window when viewed on a 4x3 display or require zooming on a 16x9 display. Or, it will record a 4x3 nonanamorphic window in the middle of the 16x9 anamorphic picture removing part of the picture.

I found no way around this and returned the machine.

Did you try all 3 display settings on the Polaroid, 4:3 LB, 4:3 PS and 16x9 Wide?

Yea, I was dead wrong about the Polaroid. That's what I get for thinking I know what I'm talking about. Next time I'm going to do my homework before opening my mouth.

Since my TV is 16:9 widescreen I only have the aspect settings in the recorders at 16:9 and both viewed and recorded an HD 16:9 broadcast (with TV aspect mode set to Normal) in 4:3 letterbox. With both recorders if I use the "Wide" or "Panoramic" settings it retains letterbox while stretching to fill most of the screen. However, on both settings people are stretched. But with the single setting "Zoom" mode designed for 16:9 viewing (so the manual says) it fills the screen perfectly and clean with the Polaroid, not so perfect and clean with the Philips. In fact, with the Polaroid, at the "Zoom" setting, while watching an HD16:9 broadcast, I switch back and forth from HDMI (Satellite) source and S-Video (recorder) source and, although the HDMI source is better because of being HD, the 16:9 image matches perfectly.

As to the PC, I have a 19" LCD but not widescreen and my PowerDVD settings all give me letterbox when viewing an HD broadcast or playing a DVD but it should be interesting to try a DVD recording from both recorders.

Mike, I don't doubt you on the manual. I've seen enough of them, usually from China, that say screwy things. I just assumed from Panasonic it would be accurate. Although, on page 13 it doesn't just make statements, it shows a picture of 16:9 aspect under "RAM" Disc and "VHS" and says "Recorded in 16:9 aspect (Widescreen)" and under the various DVD formats (+R, -R etc) it shows a picture of 4:3 aspect and says "Recorded in 4:3 aspect". At any rate, it would be nice to see a hdd recorder perform this function.

Yes, I tried all three modes. No joy.

On most (all that I am aware of) DVD recorders, including mine, those settings only affect PLAYBACK of DVDs, not recording. Those same settings are available on every DVD player also.

That said, this is still confusing to folks new to this arena.

The ability to record an anamorphic picture that actually represents a 16x9 source picture squeezed into "4x3" on a DVD recorder is dependent wholly on the source of that picture. Whether or not the widescreen flag is involved, an anamorphic recording on a DVD will take full advantage of the 720x480 resolution of the DVD recorder and player and display properly on a widescreen (16x9) TV. This is how "enhanced for widescreen" commercial DVDs are recorded.

But, the commercial "enhanced for widescreen" recordings also include the widescreen flag, which tells the DVD PLAYER to follow the user-set option for displaying widescreen video properly on a 4x3 TV (letterboxed or full screen pan and scan with cropped sides).

I have not yet read of an example of a new DVD recorder with a digital (ATSC/QAM) tuner that will record a widescreen program anamorphically from the internal tuner.

ANY DVD recorder can record an anamorphic picture supplied by a source device. I do it all the time, recording from my HD TiVo to my Pioneer DVD recorder. The HD TiVo supplies the needed anamorphic video.

Without the widescreen flag, a 4x3 TV will play that recording with a distorted aspect ratio--everyone looks tall and skinny. Again, with the widescreen flag (as found on commercial "enahnced for widescreen" DVDs) the anamorphic picture will be displayed on a 4x3 TV as either letterboxed (black bars above and below the widescreen picture) or "pan and scan" which crops the left- and right-most portions of the picture so the remainder can fill the 4x3 screen without distorting the aspect ratio of the picture.

If anyone discovers a DVD recorder with a digital tuner that makes anamorphic recordings of widescreen programs from its internal tuner, I would like to hear about it.

I believe that my Philips DVDR3575H does create the anamorphic picture (without the widescreen flag set) you have described.
I used it to record an OTA High Def broadcast on the hard drive and then dubbed that title to a DVD.
When the DVD was played on an old 4x3 TV, the tall thin people were displayed with no black banding.
When I played the same DVD on my Visio VX32LA which is a widescreen TV the display depended on the TV settings. If I set the display for NORMAL, the picture was displayed with pillar bars at each edge, no banding on top or bottom, and the tall skinny people. When I set the display to WIDE, which is designed to use the full screen width, there was no black banding at all and the people were proportioned normally.

As I said above, those settings do affect the recording on the Philips. Setting to Wide creates an anamorphic recording, setting to LB creates a letterboxed recording. PS fills the screen but cuts off the sides of a 16:9 picture. Which is why I asked if he tried all 3 settings on the Polaroid because I suspect it might be the same.