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Does Your A2/xa2 Fail “below Black” Over Hdmi? - Page 13

post #361 of 399
9/27/07 at 2:38pm
Mystery explained, thanks chiifac. My HDMI is not connected to anything which explains why I've never seen "blank"...
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post #362 of 399
9/27/07 at 5:56pm
do i set the rgb setting to standard or enhanced on my a2
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post #363 of 399
9/27/07 at 6:41pm
Theoretically, you should set it to standard. However, it doesn't appear to be working at all.
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post #364 of 399
11/12/07 at 8:34pm
I am bumping this up, because firmware 2.7 is now out, but it does appear that it is still crushing the blacks. For sure there is no BTB.

Please check...
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post #365 of 399
11/12/07 at 8:38pm
Also a reminder, just because your setup does not pass BTB does not mean you have a black crush problem.
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post #366 of 399
11/12/07 at 8:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkcohen View Post

Also a reminder, just because your setup does not pass BTB does not mean you have a black crush problem.

Trust me, this is black crush, I'll take a picture if you want me to. The bottom 2 or 3 ramps of the black levels do not exist even with the brightness cranked all the way up.
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post #367 of 399
11/12/07 at 8:42pm
Not saying you don't have black crush trabbic.
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post #368 of 399
11/13/07 at 1:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkcohen View Post

Not saying you don't have black crush trabbic.

Exactly, black crush and failure to pass BTB are different problems. BTB failure should not really affect PQ noticably while black crush does.

Black crust affects blacks above BTB as well. BTB failure does not necessarily. The two issues are not interchangable, although if you have black crush you will also fail BTB.
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post #369 of 399
11/13/07 at 5:10am
2.7 did not fix the problem for me, connected HDMI-DVI to Sony RP CRT KP-57WS510.
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post #370 of 399
11/13/07 at 6:14am
Quote:


The two issues are not interchangable, although if you have black crush you will also fail BTB.

Not true, either. "Crush" is a symptom, not a cause. A display can be fed perfect video and still exhibit crushed blacks (or whites, or any other part in the grayscale) due to improper calibration or a deficiency in the display. "Crush" means displaying the same "output" for more than one consecutive grayscale input values ("crushing multiple values into one). The biggest cause for crushed blacks with the Tosh players is that studio video is converted into PC video. BTB and WTW are pushed out/off the grayscale and the others are non linearly mapped to new values. Unless the TV can accecpt PC video levels you're going to have a hard time properly calibrating the display compared to when it is given the correct video. And in the case of the PS3 with it use to clip BTB and WTW, only BTB values were "crushed" to black (16) and WTW values were "crushed" to white (235).

larry
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post #371 of 399
11/17/07 at 8:43am
I was having the problem of the Black crush with my D2 to my Toshiba 57hx93 using HDMI to DVI. I could not see 2% or 4% bars on the pluge pattern, so I returned the unit.

I just got the A-35 on Thursday. The A-35 has a setting for RGB range of Standard or Enhanced. The Standard setting takes care of the problem for me. I can now see the 2% and 4% bars. Still can't see BTB over DVI but this is okay. I could always see it using componet.

It is hard to use the test material to set the contrast level I can't get the last two white bars to ever match, to base an adjustment on, so I leave contrast at the mid point. My set was ISF calabrated when new, but at the time they didn't do the DVI port. On the Toshiba you adjust for each input.

So I guess the answer is the A-35 for me which was fine becuase I wanted to pass the audio codics via HDMI to my SR-705.

I don't know if the other 3rd generation players have the RGB settings but this might be something for you to look into if you have the Crush problem.
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post #372 of 399
12/10/07 at 1:45pm
Do Video and PC levels exist when using YCbCr signals?

Thanks.

Mark
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post #373 of 399
12/11/07 at 2:54am
Hi Guys,
I have the xa2 with latest 2.7 update. My TV is a Sony xbr4 46 inch. I have it calibrated and am pretty satisfied with the picture. Am I reading this correctly when you guys say I can get better black levels using component cables instead of hdmi? Thanks

George
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post #374 of 399
12/11/07 at 5:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducktailjiver View Post

Hi Guys,
I have the xa2 with latest 2.7 update. My TV is a Sony xbr4 46 inch. I have it calibrated and am pretty satisfied with the picture. Am I reading this correctly when you guys say I can get better black levels using component cables instead of hdmi? Thanks

George

Does your tv have DVI?
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post #375 of 399
12/11/07 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducktailjiver View Post

Hi Guys,
I have the xa2 with latest 2.7 update. My TV is a Sony xbr4 46 inch. I have it calibrated and am pretty satisfied with the picture. Am I reading this correctly when you guys say I can get better black levels using component cables instead of hdmi? Thanks

George

Hi George,

Many forum members with first and second generation players connected to DVI displays via HDMI to DVI have reported problems with black levels. So for those folks with DVI displays it is generally true that Component Video provides more accurate black levels.

However, from reports it appears that most folks with HDMI to HDMI connections do not experience the problem. Since your display has HDMI inputs, rather than DVI, it is likely that you shouldn't have a problem using your HDMI connection.

Larry
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post #376 of 399
12/11/07 at 10:08am
Anybody now of a fix for XA2 and Mitsu 65731 DLP? I don't know about btb yet as i should receive my copy of hd dvd vid essentials tomorrow, but since i've owned this combo, i have noticed that blacks are not solid are dark at all when set to 1080p 60hz or 24hz. but even with hdmi, every other resolution looks fine with solid black levels and accurate, beautiful colors. noticed the post about setting rgb 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. could this be a solution with the mitsu? i also have the ps3 and with rgb set to full, btb works perfectly thru same connection.
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post #377 of 399
1/23/08 at 10:39am
Still not fixed for me with 2.8 firmware.
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post #378 of 399
1/23/08 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Still not fixed for me with 2.8 firmware.

which player and display?

i had my hopes up for my a2 to dvi pj, oh well.

thanks!
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post #379 of 399
1/23/08 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by westgate View Post

which player and display?

i had my hopes up for my a2 to dvi pj, oh well.

thanks!

A2 going HDMI to DVI on Sony RP CRT.
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post #380 of 399
1/25/08 at 6:03am
Finally got myself a Blu-Ray player as well (Sharp) and I found I have the exact same issue with this player.

What it all boils down to is if I drop brightness a couple clicks and increase contast 9 clicks on the TV I can get the gray scale to read pretty much the same as over component. But when looking at the 75% color windows, green is way off. Secondaries are all off on the CIE chart as well.

So not sure what to make of this but it appears my TV does not play nice with anything else. Since it happens on both players I'm starting to blame my TV more than anything. But I still don't get why the RGB setting as absolutely zero effect on what the player outputs to my TV.
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post #381 of 399
1/25/08 at 7:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Finally got myself a Blu-Ray player as well (Sharp) and I found I have the exact same issue with this player.

What it all boils down to is if I drop brightness a couple clicks and increase contast 9 clicks on the TV I can get the gray scale to read pretty much the same as over component. But when looking at the 75% color windows, green is way off. Secondaries are all off on the CIE chart as well.

So not sure what to make of this but it appears my TV does not play nice with anything else. Since it happens on both players I'm starting to blame my TV more than anything. But I still don't get why the RGB setting as absolutely zero effect on what the player outputs to my TV.

From what I've read in other threads specifically on this issue, if you are using HDMI-HDMI, then the RGB setting has no affect. If you are using HDMI-DVI, then it is supposed to have an affect.
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post #382 of 399
1/25/08 at 7:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholc2 View Post

From what I've read in other threads specifically on this issue, if you are using HDMI-HDMI, then the RGB setting has no affect. If you are using HDMI-DVI, then it is supposed to have an affect.


I using HDMI-DVI so it should have an effect, but does not.
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post #383 of 399
1/25/08 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiifac View Post

As I pointed out before, not all the A2s/XA2s with HDMI connection to the display have BTB issue. But as far as I know, all the A2s/XA2s with DVI connections have BTB, and black/white crush problems. As long as the A2/XA2 is using the YCbCr(422) format to communicate with the display, you will see BTB.

I have both and they both were connected to my LCD RPTV via HDMI to DVI cable and calibrated with a THX Optimizer disc and DVE Essentials disc. Only the A2 has the BTB issue, the XA2 is perfect. It displays the shadow details in dark movies just fine. Trust me, the A2 drove me nuts and I was obsessed with the problem. Both were upgraded to 2.7 and still had the problem.
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post #384 of 399
1/25/08 at 3:30pm
......
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post #385 of 399
1/25/08 at 4:23pm
I currently have 2 XA2's running 2.7 hooked up to a Mits 65813 going HDMI to DVI at 1080i and have no problems. The upconversion is perfect on SD disks and the HD playback is also perfect. I do not have black or white crush using the DVI input but I also made a small adjustments to the XA2's brightness and contrast to get the reverse ramps to look the same as the component input looks. I was wondering if anyone going HDMI to DVI using an XA2 that has 2.8 firmware loaded correctly has had any new problems syncing with their displays or noticed any thing weird when upscaling SD disks or any other changes. I would hate to load 2.8 and screw up the players abilily to sync with my display or in any way degrade the SD upscaling performance.

Thanks in advance,
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post #386 of 399
1/25/08 at 4:33pm
Both my A35 & A2 fail to pass BTB when connected via HDMI *or* component to my Epson HC720 projector no matter what settings I use in the players and projector. I would tend to blame the projector, but my Oppo 981 passes BTB to it fine via HDMI. Thoughts?
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post #387 of 399
1/25/08 at 5:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreyS View Post

I have both and they both were connected to my LCD RPTV via HDMI to DVI cable and calibrated with a THX Optimizer disc and DVE Essentials disc. Only the A2 has the BTB issue, the XA2 is perfect. It displays the shadow details in dark movies just fine. Trust me, the A2 drove me nuts and I was obsessed with the problem. Both were upgraded to 2.7 and still had the problem.

I have the XA2 connected through HDMI/DVI to my Sony LCD RPTV. For firmware 2.7 and prior, I had the black/white crush problem and switching the Standard/Enhanced RGB mode in XA2 did not make any difference. I pretty much gave up on using the DVI connection with XA2 for my TV. To my surprise, firmware 2.8 did finally fix the incorrect RGB levels with DVI for me. Now with the same brightness and contrast settings, I see exactly the same gray scale ramp between Component and DVI. The DVI connection actually made the PQ a tad sharper than Component.
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post #388 of 399
1/25/08 at 9:04pm
I could not see the THX logo on the A2 no matter what I tried, the XA2 is clear as a bell on 2.5 and 2.7....for me.

I also used the opening scene to Transformers HD-DVD, the part with the cube in space. On the A2, you could hardly make out the details in the shadows as the cube spins in space, with the XA2, it's all there, just like component. I would pause the movie and toggle between the inputs.

Also, man this post is old.
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post #389 of 399
1/26/08 at 6:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Thanks for the info, Larry. I don't think I am explaining my issue correctly, so let me try again:

Here is the background on the issue I am having:

Last week, I installed firmware 2.5 on my XA2 using a burned ISO disc. Both steps of the update process were performed, and I initiated the player after the update. I have a Lumagen Vision Pro HDP video processor, and a JVC HD2K projector; both devices are DVI.

I could not see BTB before or after firmware 2.5 with the XA2 picture controls at their default settings. When I adjust the XA2 brightness control, then I can see BTB, but I decided not to muck around with the XA2 picture control settings.

Instead, I just calibrated using the Lumagen controls with the two other bars in the PLUGE pattern. I was adjusting the brightness and contrast settings on the Lumagen only, as my projector has no such controls.

Now, the problem is: After updating the XA2 to firmware 2.5, I can no longer calibrate that way, as I can barely see any of the bars on the PLUGE pattern! When I adjust the controls in the Lumagen, there is very little perceptible change in the picture levels when viewing the PLUGE pattern. Believe me, I'm not going crazy.

Note, that I when I first noticed this issue, I had made no changes to my settings except for updating the XA2 to firmware 2.5 and initializing the player. Further, I was not using the picture controls in the XA2 prior to the update, so they were at the default settings both before and after updating the firmware. Based on these facts, I am convinced the cause of this issue was the 2.5 firmware update.

Now, I can fix this issue by adjusting the picture controls in the XA2, but I would rather not. The question remains, what did Toshiba change in firmware 2.5 that so adversely effected my setup?

The things I tried to rectify this issue, with no difference: I tried both RGB settings on the XA2. I tried switching the DVI Level settings on the Lumagen from PC to Video. The only thing that made the Lumagen controls work properly (giving me some range of control back) was when I adjust the XA2's brightness control up from "0", so I have a suspicion that lowered brightness is the culprit.

Since I did not have this problem before firmware 2.5 and I made no changes to my setup parameters before I noticed the issue, the logical conclusion is that the firmware update is the cause of my issue. Am I crazy?

I just want to get to the bottom of this issue, so if anyone has any suggestions of things to try, I'm all ears.

Unless I can find another explanation, the culprit is the XA2.

Thanks.

Mark

I installed 2.8 last night and initialized the player. The brightness and contrast issues I was having since firmware 2.5 have now been corrected. I have a DVI display, and this issue has been solved by setting the RGB parameter to Standard. So, the RGB setting now works for me.

I am very happy this has been fixed. Before firmware 2.8, in order to calibrate brightness and contrast using the HD DVD version of DVE's PLUGE and gray ramp patterns, I had to adjust the XA2's picture control menu brightness and contrast settings to -6 and +6 respectively. I also had to make major adjustments in the Lumagen processor's brightness and contrast settings.

While I could not prove it, I never felt like the XA2 was producing an accurate picture in my setup.

After installing firmware 2.8, I re-calibrated brightness and contrast using the HD DVD version of DVE's PLUGE and gray ramp patterns. Now, I can leave the XA2's brightness and contrast settings at their default positions so the player does not alter the signal at all. I was very pleased when I also realized the Lumagen contrast and brightness control settings at the default positions resulted in accurate calibration using those patterns.

Again, while I cannot prove it, I would bet the XA2 is now producing an accurate picture based on SMPTE standards in my setup. I think if a source device and display follow SMPTE standards, then the picture should be accurately calibrated when the parameter settings are at their default positions. This assumes the projector has been properly (and accurately) calibrated, which mine has been.

Mark
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post #390 of 399
1/27/08 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmann View Post

I currently have 2 XA2's running 2.7 hooked up to a Mits 65813 going HDMI to DVI at 1080i and have no problems. The upconversion is perfect on SD disks and the HD playback is also perfect. I do not have black or white crush using the DVI input but I also made a small adjustments to the XA2's brightness and contrast to get the reverse ramps to look the same as the component input looks. I was wondering if anyone going HDMI to DVI using an XA2 that has 2.8 firmware loaded correctly has had any new problems syncing with their displays or noticed any thing weird when upscaling SD disks or any other changes. I would hate to load 2.8 and screw up the players abilily to sync with my display or in any way degrade the SD upscaling performance.

Thanks in advance,

Hi,

I have an HD-XA2 connected to an InFocus ScreenPlay 7205 via HDMI to DVI. Like you when I was using firmware 2.7 I had to adjust the Brightness and Contrast on my HD-XA2 get the PLUGE and reverse ramps on HD DVE to look the same as via Component Video.

Now with the 2.8 firmware upgrade the HDMI connection is properly calibrated when set to its default settings of zero (same as Component Video). I'm using the standard setting on the RGB Output option.

So far I haven't experienced any handshake problems or upconverting problems.

I'm very pleased with Toshiba's willingness to continue to address these types of issues.

Larry
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