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Bitstream vs. Linear PCM - Page 8

post #211 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Thanks! So to summarize - he is only able to get lossy DTS core @ 1.5Mbs from any 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio that he plays - is that correct ?

There is no secret way for him to get the full 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio from his Sony BDP-S1 or Sony BDP-300 player - is there ?

Nikonowski

Nikonowski, he will not be able to get DTS-HD MA from neither player no matter if he tries BITSTREAM or PCM. Sorry
post #212 of 664
OK, thaks all for all you valuable feedback over the last few days. As you recall, myself and my brother-in-law had a "little" debate about sound quality when playing DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 Blu Ray disc.

So we dcided to test it out ourselves yesterday and we did

Background:

I have Samsung 1400 (with 1.7FW) so I can bitstream DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 to my reciever (Denon AVR-988)


He has Sony BDP-S1 BD player and he cannot decode nor bitsream DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1, however, he can convert to PCM via menu on his Sony BDP-S1 BD player .


So what we did next, we played the same BD disc in both players and output via HDMI to Denon reciever.

We could not tell the difference in sound quality from player to player! The sound was excellent from both, even though I was getting DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 light up on the Denon reciever when playing via Samsung 1400 and he was getting Multi Channel PCM display when playing from his Sony BDP-S1 BD player. The only piesce of mind was that I was trully outputing DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 because Denon reciever showed us so. The quality was exceptional (and we think identical) from both.

So what gives here, according to most (if not all) of your feedback, Sony BDP-S1 BD player should be only outputting lossy DTS core from DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 discs but I can assure you, the quality was the same from both of our players !!!??? Should it be ? I am at a loss what's happening here. At the beginning, I was thinking that what my brother-in-law tells me , it is just his perception , but I have to be honest here: to me as well, the quality was identical ! So I guess, you do not need to have player that can bitstream DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 after all (!) as you can obtain the same quality with PCM option! I woudl love to know why this is happening and maybe this is an excpeted behaviour - I just always thought that the DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 sound should be superior - especially over lossy DTS core ! Please remember that Sony BDP-S1 BD player does not decode DTS-HD internally and only can extract DTS core via bitstream or PCM option.

Couple other important items that have come up during our text:

Sony BDP-S1 BD player cannot output 7.1 surround sound when playing DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 disc , even after converting to PCM - so that's a one shortcoming.

Also, the strangest thing is those menu sounds. They are on ( i.e. menus make sounds when navigating between different options: Scene selection, play etc...) when playing via PCM but not on (not sounds at all) when navigating when using Bitstream option. Some of you suggested that you can turn these menu sounds on or off via disc menu selection. Well, we looked and looked and no! There is no option to turn them on anywhere. We used "The day after tomorrow" disc. The funny thing is that the same behaviour with teh menu sounds as I described above happened with both BD players: Sony BDP-S1 BD player and Samsung 1400. Can someone explain taht one to me - I am really at loss here. What gives ?

To summarize though, quality was amazing (identical to us) with both players. We did play like certain scenes from The day after tomorrow" disc 20 times in a row on each player.

Please help restore our sanity :

Thanks,
Nikonowski
post #213 of 664
Apologies. I'm coming in on this conversation mid-discussion, but some notes based on your post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Sony BDP-S1 BD player cannot output 7.1 surround sound when playing DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 disc , even after converting to PCM - so that's a one shortcoming.

If the player can't process DTS-HDMA and instead uses the DTS core track, then that would explain why it's only 5.1. You'd have to then matrix the 5.1 track to 7.1 via your receiver (if it's capable of it), but that still wouldn't make it a true 7.1 track.

Quote:


To summarize though, quality was amazing (identical to us) with both players.

As far as I'm aware, the S1 still can't bitstream or decode DTS-MA. Your AVR is essentially telling you that one player is sending it DTS-MA and the other is sending it DTS core (as decoded multichannel PCM), but if your ears can't tell the difference, then just be happy and don't worry about it.
post #214 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

Apologies. I'm coming in on this conversation mid-discussion, but some notes based on your post:If the player can't process DTS-HDMA and instead uses the DTS core track, then that would explain why it's only 5.1. You'd have to then matrix the 5.1 track to 7.1 via your receiver (if it's capable of it), but that still wouldn't make it a true 7.1 track.

As far as I'm aware, the S1 still can't bitstream or decode DTS-MA. Your AVR is essentially telling you that one player is sending it DTS-MA and the other is sending it DTS core (as decoded multichannel PCM), but if your ears can't tell the difference, then just be happy and don't worry about it.

Thanks confidenceman

I am happy, however I am just so surprised to find that out. You have to remember what we found out in my test that if we switch Sony S1 output to bitstream the DTS core track that we getting as a result, sounds noticeably worse than when we use the PCM option on S1. The surprised thing is that the PCM output sounds that so much better and it is supposed to be the same lossy DTS core only track. I just cannot believe it that this is the case.

That's all - I am trying to get someone to explain this "phenomenon" to me. Is the processing different within S1 for bitstream vs. pcm and if so, what's so different then.

I am perhaps sounding like a broken record already - I just would like to know

Thanks,
Nikonowski
post #215 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

I am trying to get someone to explain this "phenomenon" to me. Is the processing different within S1 for bitstream vs. pcm and if so, what's so different then.

I'm sure others have pointed this out already, but it really could just be a difference in audio processing between the S1 and your AVR.

Perhaps you just don't like the way your AVR processes the DTS core track compared to how the S1 does it. Both are decoding the same DTS track, but you just happen to prefer the way the S1 decodes it. But in neither case could/should it be a DTS-MA track (which you're getting from the Samsung player that you're using for comparison).
post #216 of 664
I have reading this thread trying to figure stuff out, and I am so confused. When watching a Standard DVD with DD, DD EX, DTS, etc. what should the PS3 be set to?

Now that the PS3 can handle DTS-MA, I assume it can decode all audio codecs internally. Can't we just leave it on LPCM all the time??? I assume that when the PS3 is set to LPCM and I bring up the display, the audio codec being shown at the top right is what the PS3 is outputting and what my receiver is...receiving.

That is all what I think based on my understanding of all of this garbage, but I've heard that the PS3 still can't handle DTS-MA (even after the April update) or the PS3 can't handle DD EX or my Onkyo 805 can't handle certain audio codecs.

Am I right to assume that with my PS3 outputting audio my Onkyo 805 via HDMI that I am decoding (or have the ability to decode) ALL audio codecs???
post #217 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonham2 View Post

I have reading this thread trying to figure stuff out, and I am so confused. When watching a Standard DVD with DD, DD EX, DTS, etc. what should the PS3 be set to?

Now that the PS3 can handle DTS-MA, I assume it can decode all audio codecs internally. Can't we just leave it on LPCM all the time??? I assume that when the PS3 is set to LPCM and I bring up the display, the audio codec being shown at the top right is what the PS3 is outputting and what my receiver is...receiving.

That is all what I think based on my understanding of all of this garbage, but I've heard that the PS3 still can't handle DTS-MA (even after the April update) or the PS3 can't handle DD EX or my Onkyo 805 can't handle certain audio codecs.

Am I right to assume that with my PS3 outputting audio my Onkyo 805 via HDMI that I am decoding (or have the ability to decode) ALL audio codecs???

If you keep your ps3 on LPCM you are good to go, though there are some caveats. The ps3 will take any standard DVD or Bluray encodes in DD-EX or DTS-ES and output it as 5.1 when using LPCM. If you have a 6.1 setup then I would recommend you set the PS3 to bitstream while watching these disc. The PS3 handles DTS-MA, DTS-HD and DolbyTru-HD just fine when set to LPCM. You are correct in that what ever codec the PS3 is playing shows when you press the display button. Your Onkyo 805 will decode all current codecs available, if you had a Bluray or HDDVD player that was capable of bitstreaming the HD Lossless codecs then you would see your receiver decode these just fine and the front display would show this as well.
Hope this helps!
post #218 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

Apologies. I'm coming in on this conversation mid-discussion, but some notes based on your post:If the player can't process DTS-HDMA and instead uses the DTS core track, then that would explain why it's only 5.1. You'd have to then matrix the 5.1 track to 7.1 via your receiver (if it's capable of it), but that still wouldn't make it a true 7.1 track.

As far as I'm aware, the S1 still can't bitstream or decode DTS-MA. Your AVR is essentially telling you that one player is sending it DTS-MA and the other is sending it DTS core (as decoded multichannel PCM), but if your ears can't tell the difference, then just be happy and don't worry about it.

I am pretty convinced nobody on this forum would not tell any difference as there is none ! The only difference you get when you play this movie on S1 using bitstream.Then the quality is crappy lossy DTS core track. As soon as you switch to LPCM on S1 the quality matches exactly the quality of DTS-MA track that I am getting from my Samsung 1400 via bitstream (FW 1.7) There is no difference whatsoever I have listened to different part of this movie about 20-50 times on each and I will restate , there is no difference. Why doesn't somebody test that themselves as well. I am sure your results will be the same on any DTS-HD MA 5.1 discs. Please note that we used the same receiver (Denon AVR-988) with both players and no processing of any kind was added on the reciever, just direct signal (one player displayed DTS-HD MA and the other one DVD Multi Channel in (PCM)

Nikonowski
post #219 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

I'm sure others have pointed this out already, but it really could just be a difference in audio processing between the S1 and your AVR.

Perhaps you just don't like the way your AVR processes the DTS core track compared to how the S1 does it. Both are decoding the same DTS track, but you just happen to prefer the way the S1 decodes it. But in neither case could/should it be a DTS-MA track (which you're getting from the Samsung player that you're using for comparison).

There is no difference whatsoever I have listened to different part of this movie about 20-50 times on each and I will restate , there is no difference. Why doesn't somebody test that themselves as well. I am sure your results will be the same on any DTS-HD MA 5.1 discs. Please note that we used the same receiver (Denon AVR-988) with both players and no processing of any kind was added on the reciever, just direct signal (one player displayed DTS-HD MA and the other one DVD Multi Channel in (PCM)

Nikonowski
post #220 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

There is no difference whatsoever I have listened to different part of this movie about 20-50 times on each and I will restate , there is no difference. Why doesn't somebody test that themselves as well. I am sure your results will be the same on any DTS-HD MA 5.1 discs. Please note that we used the same receiver (Denon AVR-988) with both players and no processing of any kind was added on the reciever, just direct signal (one player displayed DTS-HD MA and the other one DVD Multi Channel in (PCM)

Nikonowski

I totally agree with you here. My friend just bought a Samsung BDP1500 from Wally world and brought it over so I could see the the pretty DTS-HD MA show up on my Yammy 1800. We compared it back and forth with my PS3 watching the crash scene from Flight of the Phoenix and neither one of us could tell any difference in the two once they were both volume level matched. This debate will never end!
post #221 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Then the quality is crappy lossy DTS core track.

I just thought this was funny. Remember when DTS was the best you could get???
post #222 of 664
Someone in this or a similar thread said it simply and best.

DVD's go bitstream.

BD's go LPCM.
post #223 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonham2 View Post

I just thought this was funny. Remember when DTS was the best you could get???

No! LOL never been big fan of DTS. It always sounded too bright too me (of course I have Klipsch speakers)
post #224 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Someone in this or a similar thread said it simply and best.

DVD's go bitstream.

BD's go LPCM.

Hughmc, I am not sure if your statement has to do with anything we have been dicussing here: Bitstream vs. LPCM ? Besides, who watches DVDs any longer really ? )

Nikonowski
post #225 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Someone in this or a similar thread said it simply and best.

DVD's go bitstream.

BD's go LPCM.

Except for BD's that don't have a lossless track
post #226 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaymerkramer View Post

I totally agree with you here. My friend just bought a Samsung BDP1500 from Wally world and brought it over so I could see the the pretty DTS-HD MA show up on my Yammy 1800. We compared it back and forth with my PS3 watching the crash scene from Flight of the Phoenix and neither one of us could tell any difference in the two once they were both volume level matched. This debate will never end!


Thanks jaymerkramer!

I don't mind the debates - I actually love them However, there is nothing to debate here. There is no difference!

What I don't like is that some people are suggesting that to enjoy DTS-HD Master Audio you need greatest and the most expensive equipment, but as I proved it it is not the case at all. So all of you that have older equipment can enjoy the latest HD codecs.

Nikonowski
post #227 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

Except for BD's that don't have a lossless track

There is no difference whatsoever I have listened to different part of this movie about 20-50 times on each and I will restate , there is no difference. Why doesn't somebody test that themselves as well. I am sure your results will be the same on any DTS-HD MA 5.1 discs. Please note that we used the same receiver (Denon AVR-988) with both players and no processing of any kind was added on the reciever, just direct signal (one player displayed DTS-HD MA and the other one DVD Multi Channel in (PCM)

Nikonowski
post #228 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

There is no difference whatsoever I have listened to different part of this movie about 20-50 times on each and I will restate , there is no difference. Why doesn't somebody test that themselves as well. I am sure your results will be the same on any DTS-HD MA 5.1 discs. Please note that we used the same receiver (Denon AVR-988) with both players and no processing of any kind was added on the reciever, just direct signal (one player displayed DTS-HD MA and the other one DVD Multi Channel in (PCM)

Nikonowski

I wasn't referring to the player or receiver decoding lossless tracks, I was talking about when to leave the PS3 set to PCM as opposed to bitstream.
post #229 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Thanks jaymerkramer!

I don't mind the debates - I actually love them However, there is nothing to debate here. There is no difference!

What I don't like is that some people are suggesting that to enjoy DTS-HD Master Audio you need greatest and the most expensive equipment, but as I proved it it is not the case at all. So all of you that have older equipment can enjoy the latest HD codecs.

Nikonowski

Here's the problem, you are saying that there's no difference between the full DTS-HD MA track and the basic DTS core track. This is simply not true. If you can' hear the difference then you are doing something wrong or your equipment (including ears) isn't good enough.
post #230 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

Here's the problem, you are saying that there's no difference between the full DTS-HD MA track and the basic DTS core track. This is simply not true. If you can' hear the difference then you are doing something wrong or your equipment (including ears) isn't good enough.

Well, I appreciate your feedback Jay_Davis, however, I would challenge you to do the test I performed yourself There will be no difference.

And you have to fully understand what I am saying and that is: there is no difference in playing full DTS-HD MA track with Samsung 1400 via bitstream output vs. playing the same full DTS-HD MA track with Sony S1 via PCM output. The quality is excellent and equal with both methods. I have never said that no difference between the full DTS-HD MA track and the basic DTS core track in general. You are right it should be but in my test there wasn't any so I am asking , what gives ???How come?

Regards,
Nikonowski
post #231 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Well, I appreciate your feedback Jay_Davis, however, I would challenge you to do the test I performed yourself There will be no difference.

And you have to fully understand what I am saying and that is: there is no difference in playing full DTS-HD MA track with Samsung 1400 via bitstream output vs. playing the same full DTS-HD MA track with Sony S1 via PCM output. The quality is excellent and equal with both methods. I have never said that no difference between the full DTS-HD MA track and the basic DTS core track in general. You are right it should be but in my test there wasn't any so I am asking , what gives ???How come?

Regards,
Nikonowski

What gives??? If you are bitstreaming a DTS-HD MA track to a AVR that will decode it the end result will be a decoded DTS-HD MA track coming from the speakers. Now if you have the Sony S1 Decode the DTS-HD- MA track and send it via PCM to the same AVR, the end result will be...a DTS-HD MA track from your speakers. I dont understand where the DTS core track comes into play in this case. All you have proven is that the Track sounds the same no matter where the decoding is being done. On board the BDP S1 or the AVR the end result is the same.
post #232 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndskyz View Post

What gives??? If you are bitstreaming a DTS-HD MA track to a AVR that will decode it the end result will be a decoded DTS-HD MA track coming from the speakers. Now if you have the Sony S1 Decode the DTS-HD- MA track and send it via PCM to the same AVR, the end result will be...a DTS-HD MA track from your speakers. I dont understand where the DTS core track comes into play in this case. All you have proven is that the Track sounds the same no matter where the decoding is being done. On board the BDP S1 or the AVR the end result is the same.

Good points

Except Sony S1 does not decode the DTS-HD- MA track , it does not have that capability. So according to some folks on this forum , the best you can out of the Sony S1 is lossy DTS core track which should sound a lot worse than the DTS-HD- MA track I am bitstreaming from my samsung 1400 to reciever. However, I am saying that the quality is the same

N.
post #233 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Good points

Except Sony S1 does not decode the DTS-HD- MA track , it does not have that capability. So according to some folks on this forum , the best you can out of the Sony S1 is lossy DTS core track which should sound a lot worse than the DTS-HD- MA track I am bitstreaming from my samsung 1400 to reciever. However, I am saying that the quality is the same

N.

The "quality" is the same, quality being the key word. I don't know where you got the idea or belief that the 1.5 DTS core track should be a lot worse. That just isn't true.
While the DTS core track is amazing and some AVS insiders who work on audio for films have said at 1.5 Mbps there is no "audible" discernable difference to the human ear compared to the lossless DTS MA track, the DTS MA track seems to have more punch than the 1.5. I think the DTS MA track is "better".
post #234 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Hughmc, I am not sure if your statement has to do with anything we have been dicussing here: Bitstream vs. LPCM ? Besides, who watches DVDs any longer really ? )

Nikonowski

Kevin12586 gets it and it absolutely matters and is part of the point of this thread.
post #235 of 664
Alrighty since everyone here seems to know 10 times what i do. And reading through the posts is making my head spin, tell me what you would recommend for my set up.

PS3 of course and a Pioneer VSX-1016TXV which has HDMI, but only for video it doesnt accpet audio on it. I bought it thinking that it was ok because i planed running HDMI right to my tv for video and optical to receiver for audio. What i didnt know was the optical out was limited for a PS3 for true lossless audio. I dont feel like getting a new reciever so what do you guys recommend for the best sound. I have a 5.1 system
post #236 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by F355FTS View Post

Alrighty since everyone here seems to know 10 times what i do. And reading through the posts is making my head spin, tell me what you would recommend for my set up.

PS3 of course and a Pioneer VSX-1016TXV which has HDMI, but only for video it doesnt accpet audio on it. I bought it thinking that it was ok because i planed running HDMI right to my tv for video and optical to receiver for audio. What i didnt know was the optical out was limited for a PS3 for true lossless audio. I dont feel like getting a new reciever so what do you guys recommend for the best sound. I have a 5.1 system

hehe, set your ps3 to bitstream via optical. You'll get lossy but good soundtracks.

What you see above is lossless debate of compressed lossless vs. uncompressed lossless. At the end of the day, "Do what makes you happy."

-Splints
post #237 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

The "quality" is the same, quality being the key word. I don't know where you got the idea or belief that the 1.5 DTS core track should be a lot worse. That just isn't true.
While the DTS core track is amazing and some AVS insiders who work on audio for films have said at 1.5 Mbps there is no "audible" discernable difference to the human ear compared to the lossless DTS MA track, the DTS MA track seems to have more punch than the 1.5. I think the DTS MA track is "better".

Hughmc, thanks for your feedback! I think that you are the first person here that said that quality is the same. And Yes, "quality being the key word. "
All I have been hearing all along is that DTS-MA is simply the best that there is and there is day and night difference between it and DTS core - well in my tests , it became that isn't so. So I am simply stating that peopels hsoul not spend money on teh greatest and latest just to get the DTS-MA stream to work either with recieved or decoded internally. It may not be worth it , taht's all. I rest my case.

Thanks all for you great feedback and I have learned a lot!

Cheers,
N.
post #238 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Well, I appreciate your feedback Jay_Davis, however, I would challenge you to do the test I performed yourself There will be no difference.

And you have to fully understand what I am saying and that is: there is no difference in playing full DTS-HD MA track with Samsung 1400 via bitstream output vs. playing the same full DTS-HD MA track with Sony S1 via PCM output. The quality is excellent and equal with both methods. I have never said that no difference between the full DTS-HD MA track and the basic DTS core track in general. You are right it should be but in my test there wasn't any so I am asking , what gives ???How come?

Regards,
Nikonowski

The S1 doesn't decode DTS-HD MA, so you are comparing a DTS-HD MA track to the DTS core. There is a difference. If you don't hear the difference then your setup is weak. Could be the receiver or your speakers. I'm betting you can't hear the benefit of a True-HD or native PCM track either.
post #239 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by splinters View Post

hehe, set your ps3 to bitstream via optical. You'll get lossy but good soundtracks.

What you see above is lossless debate of compressed lossless vs. uncompressed lossless. At the end of the day, "Do what makes you happy."

-Splints

Splints!!!

You're a wise man... very wise indeed...!!!!
post #240 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

The S1 doesn't decode DTS-HD MA, so you are comparing a DTS-HD MA track to the DTS core. There is a difference. If you don't hear the difference then your setup is weak. Could be the receiver or your speakers. I'm betting you can't hear the benefit of a True-HD or native PCM track either.

Jay_Davis, once again , I appreciate your comments , but I respectfully beg to differ. I don't have a top of the line setup, but it isn't weak either:

- Denon AVR-988 reciever
- 7 Paradigm speakers and Yamaha Active subwoofer
- quality speaker cables and banana plugs
(the speakers were calibrated for my room using Denon's auto setup ( I took measurements in 8th position across my room)

So the setup isn't that weak after all in my opinion. I also tested it on a different setup ( my brother's in law) :

- Yamaha 1800 reciever
- 7.1 Klipich speakers + sub
- quality speaker cables and banana plugs

And same results, there were no difference between the DTS core vs. DTS-MA. I wish you could hear it yourself I will test the TrueHD vs PCM track. What else can I do to prove that there is no difference ? And really, should there be a difference and if so, what difference would one excpect ? How do you determine that difference? Can you tell yourself on your setup and what's your setup ? The only difference I hear is when I play the 5.1 DTS-HD MA disc on Sony S1 via bitstream - then it really sounds crappy i.e. sounds like the way you and other folks are saying: lossy DTS core track. However, once I switch S1 to PCM output, the sound is identical to what I hear via bitsream on Samsung 1400 ??? Go figure

Regards,
Nikonowski

P.S> Can someone do a similar tests to compare if their experience is the sam or different. I would love to find out!
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