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Bitstream vs. Linear PCM - Page 3

post #61 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_j_johnson View Post

The PS3 will still send the uncompressed PCM in Bitstream mode as well. The only thing Bitstream will not send currently is Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.

Only in 2.1 and not true 5.1.
post #62 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Only in 2.1 and not true 5.1.

If you are using Optical out, then yes. My post is correct if you are using HDMI out.
post #63 of 664
Let me make a chart for the lossless audio sources.

BITSTREAM MODE (HDMI OUT)
--------------------------------


5.1 LPCM passed to AV receiver untouched for DAC = YES

5.1 Dolby TrueHD passed to AV receiver untouched for decoding & DAC = NO

5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio passed to AV receiver untouched for decoding & DAC= NO



LPCM MODE (HDMI OUT)
--------------------------


5.1 LPCM passed to AV receiver untouched for DAC = YES

5.1 Dolby TrueHD decoded & passed to AV receiver for DAC = YES

5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio decoded & passed to AV receiver for DAC = NO


EDIT: DAC = Digital to Analog Conversion

EDIT2: Most of us are hoping Sony will release a firmware to change all the NO answers to YES answers.
post #64 of 664
^^The debate continues though which is actually better. I had no idea the PS3 passed 5.1 DD trueHD by Bitstream. I just run it all LPCM over HDMI. My Denon 4308 receiver doesn't show DD True HD since I am doing PCM, but it sure sound way better and the bit rate is where it should be.
post #65 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

^^The debate continues though which is actually better. I had no idea the PS3 passed 5.1 DD trueHD by Bitstream. I just run it all LPCM over HDMI. My Denon 4308 receiver doesn't show DD True HD since I am doing PCM, but it sure sound way better and the bit rate is where it should be.

The PS3 does not "pass" Dolby TrueHD via Bitstream for your AV receiver to decode and then convert to analog. Hopefully it will in the future.

When the PS3 is in LPCM mode, the PS3 first "decodes" Dolby TrueHD and *then* passes the resulting LPCM to your AV receiver to be changed to analog for your speakers.
post #66 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_j_johnson View Post

Let me make a chart for the lossless audio sources.

BITSTREAM MODE (HDMI OUT)
--------------------------------


5.1 LPCM passed to AV receiver untouched for DAC = YES

5.1 Dolby TrueHD passed to AV receiver untouched for decoding & DAC = NO

5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio passed to AV receiver untouched for decoding & DAC= NO



LPCM MODE (HDMI OUT)
--------------------------


5.1 LPCM passed to AV receiver untouched for DAC = YES

5.1 Dolby TrueHD decoded & passed to AV receiver for DAC = YES

5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio decoded & passed to AV receiver for DAC = NO


EDIT: DAC = Digital to Analog Conversion

EDIT2: Most of us are hoping Sony will release a firmware to change all the NO answers to YES answers.

This should be put somewhere for all to see, it would save a lot of questions that pop up everyday about what to set the PS3 to
post #67 of 664
For BluRay movies if I select LPCM on my PS3 via HDMI what should these setting be on the Onkyo TX-SR674 sub-menu with a 7.1 configuration to get the best sound including the subwoofer?

I have the following categories & choices.

Ana/PCM - Direct, Stereo, Mono, PL IIx movie-game-music & so on through all the DTS stuff

MCH PCM - Direct & Multich

MCH Ana - Direct & Multich

PCM192k - Direct & Stereo
post #68 of 664
For people who have 5.1 receivers with no HDMI, do you keep your PS3 set to Bitstream or LPCM? I have PLII on my receiver, so I think that the uncompressed tracks sound better in fake surround than the DD track, even if I am sacrificing some specificity in the sound field. But I don't know if it makes any difference whether I have the PS3 set to Bitstream or LPCM so I've been switching back and forth depending on whether I listen to a DD track or an uncompressed track. What settings do y'all use? Does it make any difference?
post #69 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan_P View Post

For people who have 5.1 receivers with no HDMI, do you keep your PS3 set to Bitstream or LPCM? I have PLII on my receiver, so I think that the uncompressed tracks sound better in fake surround than the DD track, even if I am sacrificing some specificity in the sound field. But I don't know if it makes any difference whether I have the PS3 set to Bitstream or LPCM so I've been switching back and forth depending on whether I listen to a DD track or an uncompressed track. What settings do y'all use? Does it make any difference?

I just got an 80 GB PS3 and am in a similar situation (my AVR is non-HDMI and supports DD and DTS over optical). I did some A/B comparisons with 2 films (Casino Royale - 5.1 PCM) and (Die Hard 4 - DTS MA). I found the following:

1. For Casino Royale, I prefered the 5.1 PCM track down-converted to 2 channel PCM w. Dolby Pro Logic applied. I found that the increased dynamic range and overall sound quality overcame the benefit of having more discrete channel separation via DD 5.1.

2. Die Hard 4's DTS MA soundtrack includes a 1.5 Mps 5.1 "Core" track that can be passed over optical. I found this to provide excellent dynamic range and overall quality.

So my conclusion is that for Dolby TrueHD and PCM tracks, I will have the PS3 downrez to 2 channel LPCM. For movies containing DTS MA (Fox, NewLine), I will switch over to Bitstream output.

I think alot of this will come down to personal taste. Many on this forum argue that 640 kps Dolby Digital (included on most every BR disc) is more than good enough to their ears.
post #70 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by bchalmers View Post

I just got an 80 GB PS3 and am in a similar situation (my AVR is non-HDMI and supports DD and DTS over optical). I did some A/B comparisons with 2 films (Casino Royale - 5.1 PCM) and (Die Hard 4 - DTS MA). I found the following:

1. For Casino Royale, I prefered the 5.1 PCM track down-converted to 2 channel PCM w. Dolby Pro Logic applied. I found that the increased dynamic range and overall sound quality overcame the benefit of having more discrete channel separation via DD 5.1.

2. Die Hard 4's DTS MA soundtrack includes a 1.5 Mps 5.1 "Core" track that can be passed over optical. I found this to provide excellent dynamic range and overall quality.

So my conclusion is that for Dolby TrueHD and PCM tracks, I will have the PS3 downrez to 2 channel LPCM. For movies containing DTS MA (Fox, NewLine), I will switch over to Bitstream output.

I think alot of this will come down to personal taste. Many on this forum argue that 640 kps Dolby Digital (included on most every BR disc) is more than good enough to their ears.

Good post, thanks for the input!
post #71 of 664
hey guys, a question here...

with linear pcm, if the signal on the disc is 5.1, and my receiver is 7.1, I've noticed my two rear speakers aren't being used, and my receiver(onkyo 605) doesn't give me any options to change that. With bitstream, I get the icon(dts in this case), and I can then use neo:6 to matrix it to 7...

does this sound right? Should the linear pcm signal be 7 channels if it's only a 5.1 on the disc, or is there a way to get it to?
post #72 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tread View Post

hey guys, a question here...

with linear pcm, if the signal on the disc is 5.1, and my receiver is 7.1, I've noticed my two rear speakers aren't being used, and my receiver(onkyo 605) doesn't give me any options to change that. With bitstream, I get the icon(dts in this case), and I can then use neo:6 to matrix it to 7...

does this sound right? Should the linear pcm signal be 7 channels if it's only a 5.1 on the disc, or is there a way to get it to?

The issue's with the 605. It can't matrix LPCM.
post #73 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by bchalmers View Post


I think alot of this will come down to personal taste. Many on this forum argue that 640 kps Dolby Digital (included on most every BR disc) is more than good enough to their ears.

I dont know about that. Maybe to those who havent heard an uncompressed HD track. DD 640 may very well be good enough. But once you have heard the two back to back..there is no comparison. I compared the 640 DD to Dolby True HD track on Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds last night. Night and day difference.
post #74 of 664
Bitstream versus Linear PCM
The PS3 provides options for either "Bitstream" or "Linear PCM" when outputing the audio signal. This option is located in the "Settings->BD/DVD Settings->BD/DVD Audio Output Format(HDMI)" and "Settings->BD/DVD Settings->BD Audio Output Format (Optical)" settings of your XMB. Linear PCM is audio data that is not encoded (nor compressed) and is in it's pure digital form, ready for conversion into analog for the speakers. A regular CD stores all its songs in Linear PCM form. Most audio starting with the DVD store digital data encoded and compressed (like Dolby Digital or DTS Digital Surround). If "Bitstream" option is selected, the PS3 will take this undecoded and uncompressed audio and send it untouched to the HDMI or TOSLINK cable for your external decoder to decode. In other words, the receiver at the other end of the HDMI or TOSLINK must have special chips that can decode and uncompress formats like Dolby Digital and DTS Digital Surround, and then convert the resultant Linear PCM to analog (via a DAC) for the speakers connected to the external decoder. If "Linear PCM" option is selected, the PS3 will actually decode the audio into Linear PCM first, before sending it to the HDMI or TOSLINK. In this case the receiver on the other end of the HDMI or TOSLINK only needs to convert the Linear PCM to analog for the speakers connected to it. Because of the current bandwidth limitations of TOSLINK, choosing Linear PCM (the decoded and uncompressed signal) on this connection limits you to only two channels of audio. For multichannel (like 5.1) over TOSLINK, you must use "bitstream", which uses smaller bandwidth of compressed and encoded data.
post #75 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Hun View Post

Bitstream versus Linear PCM
The PS3 provides options for either "Bitstream" or "Linear PCM" when outputing the audio signal. edited

You do know that everything you just posted has already been said in this thread??
post #76 of 664
No I Didnt, I dont have time to read through 70 threads. I just post facts so people can learn from them.
post #77 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Hun View Post

Bitstream versus Linear PCM

It's also considered "good form" to give credit to the sites you quote from:
http://www.edepot.com/playstation3.html

Particularly when that particular site has its own very recent and still active thread here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=988840

Even more so when the author him/herself has started a thread for that page:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=938295
post #78 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Hun View Post

No I Didnt, I dont have time to read through 70 threads. I just post facts so people can learn from them.

And thus we end up with more threads of repeated information that no one wants to bother to read through.
post #79 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Hun View Post

No I Didnt, I dont have time to read through 70 threads. I just post facts so people can learn from them.

Thats funny..you didnt take or have time to read though 76 posts..but you expect other people to read to post 76 (yours) and get the "facts"
post #80 of 664
no, i scroll right to the bottom. and yes it was from the PS3 secrets site. I still think you guys are getting to hardcore for no reason. Just trying to give out some info.
post #81 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Hun View Post

no, i scroll right to the bottom. and yes it was from the PS3 secrets site. I still think you guys are getting to hardcore for no reason. Just trying to give out some info.

Isn't kind of like walking into the last few minutes of auto shop class at the end of the semester; walking to the front of the room and having everyone stop what they're doing in order to let everyone know cars have 4 wheels, are controlled with the steering wheel and run on gasoline?
post #82 of 664
what a comedian.
post #83 of 664
I just noticed the HDMI LPCM output on the PS3 is lacking (bass, dynamics and loudnes). Further testing revealed that Star Wars Episode III sounded lifeless IN DIRECT COMPARISON to LPCM output from Toshiba HD-A2 and to Pioneer DV46AV DVD player via 7.1 analog inputs. The bitsream output seems more comparable to the other two players.

Clearly this is a PS3 issue and some other forum members have come to the same conclusion. Either there is a design flaw in the way the PS3 handles LPCM or there are a few PS3s out there that are defective.
post #84 of 664
Have you tried turning dynamic range control off on the PS3?
post #85 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by apodaca View Post

I just noticed the HDMI LPCM output on the PS3 is lacking (bass, dynamics and loudnes). Further testing revealed that Star Wars Episode III sounded lifeless IN DIRECT COMPARISON to LPCM output from Toshiba HD-A2 and to Pioneer DV46AV DVD player via 7.1 analog inputs. The bitsream output seems more comparable to the other two players.

Clearly this is a PS3 issue and some other forum members have come to the same conclusion. Either there is a design flaw in the way the PS3 handles LPCM or there are a few PS3s out there that are defective.

Except that people have tested the LFE output of the PS3 and it is correct. Since it's tough for me to believe that anything defective could just cause the LFE to be off (given that it's a digital output), then it must be some setting causing it.
post #86 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by apodaca View Post

I just noticed the HDMI LPCM output on the PS3 is lacking (bass, dynamics and loudnes). Further testing revealed that Star Wars Episode III sounded lifeless IN DIRECT COMPARISON to LPCM output from Toshiba HD-A2 and to Pioneer DV46AV DVD player via 7.1 analog inputs. The bitsream output seems more comparable to the other two players.

Clearly this is a PS3 issue and some other forum members have come to the same conclusion. Either there is a design flaw in the way the PS3 handles LPCM or there are a few PS3s out there that are defective.

You call that a direct comparision?? Last I checked the PS3 didnt have analog outs...at least not 8 of them So you compared HDMI out of the PS3 to Analog out of an A2. What you found was that the Analog sounded better right. Well to me you just found out that your AVR doesnt process HDMI LPCM very well, and doesn't do BM (bass management) on an LPCM signal via HDMI. MANY AVRs have that problem.

By comparing the PS3 HDMI vs Analog out of the A2. You COMPLETELY removed the AVR'S DAC from the equation. All your AVR had to do with the A2 feed is send that signal STRAIGHT to the amp sections for amplification, and then on to the speakers. From the PS3 the AVR has to send that Digital signal to the DAC (7-9 Meg per second of information) then to the Amp section and then to the speaker. A Cheap DAC chip in the AVR could be the source of the problem, as well as the inability to do BM via HDMI.
I personally dont think you found a thing wrong with the PS3. You found something wrong with your AVR.
post #87 of 664
Ok, I'm guessing my receiver just can't handle bitstream from my ps3. But, the problem I have is that if I select the audio output as bitstream as opposed to LPCM, the audio cuts out on my receiver. Unfortunately, this is the only way I can get DD/DTS to actually play when I'm playing Blu-ray movies. I have yet to find any info regarding my problem with bitstream so if anyone can help or has the same problem, please let me know.

I'm guessing a receiver upgrade is in the near future so if anyone has some suggestions regarding a compatible receiver for true DD/DTS with my ps3 let me know. Thanks!
post #88 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiki2216 View Post

Ok, I'm guessing my receiver just can't handle bitstream from my ps3. But, the problem I have is that if I select the audio output as bitstream as opposed to LPCM, the audio cuts out on my receiver. Unfortunately, this is the only way I can get DD/DTS to actually play when I'm playing Blu-ray movies. I have yet to find any info regarding my problem with bitstream so if anyone can help or has the same problem, please let me know.

It might help to know what receiver you're using and how it's connected. It sounds like you already recognize the problem, though.

When you send the receiver LPCM, the PS3's already done the work of processing the initial audio signal. When you send it bitstream, your receiver has to do all the initial processing work. Your receiver probably just can't handle whatever audio format is being sent to it.

I'm guessing you're connected via optical. If that's the case, the LPCM you're sending your receiver is going to be a bit limited format-wise (2-channel). Your initial hunch that you're due for a receiver upgrade may be right.
post #89 of 664
hi i have the same problem as the folks with the yamahas, except i have my ps3 hooked up via hdmi to an onkyo tx-sr705. i just got the 40gb ps3 and included with it was the blu-ray version of spiderman 3. after getting the latest firmware update, i got down to business and looked to play spiderman 3. when i select LPCM on the audio out, the sound is MUCH lower and less dynamic than when i select bitstream. this is really odd to me since i can see that the outputted audio holds significantly less data in bitstream format (640k/s) than LPCM (~3.0MB/s) - if you press Select on the ps3 controller while playing a movie, it shows you the data.
i reckon i did something wrong with the settings on either the ps3 or my receiver (or both!), but can't figure out what. all i know is that the sound is significantly reduced. just to give you all a sense, i played most movies (on my old dvd player) at -30db and was fine with this level when playing spidey 3 on bitstream with the ps3. when i dynamically switch to LPCM, i need to turn the volume on my receiver up to -16db to get the same sound levels. even then, it doesn't appear to sound any more dynamic. any help or insights would be appreciated!!
post #90 of 664
did you change the audio setting in the ps3 settings? should be under display, first you select hdmi and then select automaticly detect and then confirm. next do the same for the audio select hdmi and then auto select and then confirm. another way to check to see if the blu ray movie is playing lpcm is while playing the movie hit the triangle button and look for the setting button next to the volume button it should say something like A/V settings (hit x button on it to select it) and at the bottom of the list it will say something like sound output and you can select bitstream or lpcm, make sure it says lpcm and hit triangle again to exit. trust me you will know when you have the lossless working properly. hopefully this solves the problem and helps. let me know if this worked. good luck
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