AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › HD DVD Players › Lack of DTS-Master HD
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Lack of DTS-Master HD

post #1 of 31
5/10/07 at 11:23am
Thread Starter 
Sorry if this question has been asked earlier, I couldn't find an answer when searching.

I am considering picking up a Toshiba HD-A2 or A-20 but i have a question regarding them not being able to decode DTS-Master HD. My question is, does this even matter? If every movie that becomes available has either PCM or Dolby HD for high def, and then one of the legacy formats then no, but is it possible that some movies will come out with only a DTS-Master HD high def soundtrack and then one of the older legacy soundtracks? This would suck, as you would be forced to play the legacy format in this case.
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #2 of 31
5/10/07 at 11:36am
They support and decode DTS-HD Core, which is the Lossy version, since most disks seem to be either DD+ and/or TrueHD I chose TrueHD where possible.

~Bobby
Reply
Reply
post #3 of 31
5/10/07 at 11:42am
how many titles on hd-dvd even use dts hdma? ive rented close to 40 and owned about 50 and none are in dts hd ma. most are dolby digital plus and truehd
Reply
Reply
post #4 of 31
5/10/07 at 12:07pm
I don't think many do here in the US but Studio Canal HD DVDs have DTS-Master HD (I own a few.)

I wonder if the XA2 is firmware upgradeable for this? I asked on the Insiders thread but never received a response.
Reply
Reply
post #5 of 31
5/10/07 at 4:04pm
I've never received a response either. DTS-HD MA was demoed at CES using the A20. So I'm assuming at least it will be SW upgraded to support it.

I'm guessing not much changed on the audio decoding side from gen 1 to gen 2 players. So I'm hopeful that all will eventually decode DTS-HD MA (and HRA) with an eventual fw upgrade.

Unless someone can point out why the A20 could be upgraded and the others cannot (such as completely different audio-side makeup compared to all other players), I think its a safe assumption. As for when, that's another story altogether I'm guessing TOSH anticipated DTS-MA and built the players to be able to upgraded accordingly.

It would be GREAT if SOMEONE or ANYONE would comment on the possiblity. I've brought it up like 10 times and nobody says yes or no. I've also asked about 7.1 DD+ and TrueHD audio decoding. I'm guessing this is also possible since TrueHD was upped from 2 channel to 5.1 via fw. Finally (and the farthest reach) would be IF the players can be upgraded to 7.1 via fw, can the analog outs (stereo + 5.1) also be remapped to be useful as well? This is probably a longshot, but again possible.

ANY INSIDERS KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT POSSIBLITIES??? I'm not asking if it will be done, but if it can be done with the exhisting hardware via fw upgrade.

Thanks!
Reply
Reply
post #6 of 31
5/10/07 at 4:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggster View Post

how many titles on hd-dvd even use dts hdma?

Answer: 11

Wolf Creek
The Matador
The Pianist (European Import)
La Haine (European Import)
Scary Movie 4
Total Recall (European Import)
Rambo: First Blood Part II (European Import)
First Blood (European Import)
The Fog (European Import)
Derailed
King Kong 1976 (European Import)
Reply
Reply
post #7 of 31
5/10/07 at 4:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

Answer: 11

Wolf Creek
The Matador
Scary Movie 4
Derailed

?

The only ones I see in the U.S are Alice Cooper - Live at Montreux and Pat Metheny Group - The Way Up: Live.

Also there are quite a few more European HD DVDs that have it.
Reply
Reply
post #8 of 31
5/10/07 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damnationdoormat View Post

The only ones I see in the U.S are Alice Cooper - Live at Montreux and Pat Metheny Group - The Way Up: Live.

Also there are quite a few more European HD DVDs that have it.

That is correct. Those Weinstein titles only have 1.5 mbps DD+ tracks.

Every one of Studio Canal's European HD DVD releases has a DTS-HD MA track.
Reply
Reply
post #9 of 31
5/10/07 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSmith83 View Post

That is correct. Those Weinstein titles only have 1.5 mbps DD+ tracks.

Every one of Studio Canal's European HD DVD releases has a DTS-HD MA track.

My mistake.... I was just going off of Fett's information in the tier thread.
Reply
Reply
post #10 of 31
5/11/07 at 3:23am
It isn't just Studio Canal that uses DTS-HD. In fact, the DTS/DD divide seems to correspond near-perfectly to which side of the Atlantic you're on. Dolby reigns supreme in the US/Canada, DTS in Europe. All the European HD-DVD producing Home Video companies - Optimum Pictures, Constantin Films (e.g. Das Parfum), Ascot Elite (e.g. Renaissance, Bugs!, etc.), and of course Studio Canal all use DTS-HD (MA) almost exclusively.

Although generally speaking, Hollywood subsidiaries produce the same content, audio format included, as the US parent, especially UK companies (such as Warner Home Video UK, with the UK-exclusive Harry Potter 4 in TrueHD, not DTS) whose content is often identical to US discs (for obvious reasons), many still use DTS for native-language audio streams (e.g. Spanish audio in DTS on the Spanish HD-DVD of 'Underworld:Evolution', English in DD+).
Reply
Reply
post #11 of 31
5/11/07 at 3:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolintheRain View Post

I've never received a response either. DTS-HD MA was demoed at CES using the A20. So I'm assuming at least it will be SW upgraded to support it.

I'm guessing not much changed on the audio decoding side from gen 1 to gen 2 players. So I'm hopeful that all will eventually decode DTS-HD MA (and HRA) with an eventual fw upgrade.

Unless someone can point out why the A20 could be upgraded and the others cannot (such as completely different audio-side makeup compared to all other players), I think its a safe assumption. As for when, that's another story altogether I'm guessing TOSH anticipated DTS-MA and built the players to be able to upgraded accordingly.

It would be GREAT if SOMEONE or ANYONE would comment on the possiblity. I've brought it up like 10 times and nobody says yes or no. I've also asked about 7.1 DD+ and TrueHD audio decoding. I'm guessing this is also possible since TrueHD was upped from 2 channel to 5.1 via fw. Finally (and the farthest reach) would be IF the players can be upgraded to 7.1 via fw, can the analog outs (stereo + 5.1) also be remapped to be useful as well? This is probably a longshot, but again possible.

ANY INSIDERS KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT POSSIBLITIES??? I'm not asking if it will be done, but if it can be done with the exhisting hardware via fw upgrade.

Thanks!

It should be possible through firmware upgrade for the XA2 model as it uses an Analog Devices audio DSP chip ('Sharc').

It's a possibility to remap the 7.1 surround back channels into the 5.1 analog output by matrix encododing the additional two channels in the 5.1 back channels.

It can be done but if that gets implemented in firmware is unclear at this point.

It might be that the upcoming and recent European releases having a DTS HD MA tracks trigger such a firmware upgrade. Perhaps a lot of the work is already done. Now that content is becoming available the firmware department might starting to look into it or start testing with the discs to prepare for the firmware release.

I suspect we get 24fps output first.
Reply
Reply
post #12 of 31
5/11/07 at 4:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolintheRain View Post

I've never received a response either. DTS-HD MA was demoed at CES using the A20. So I'm assuming at least it will be SW upgraded to support it.

I'm guessing not much changed on the audio decoding side from gen 1 to gen 2 players. So I'm hopeful that all will eventually decode DTS-HD MA (and HRA) with an eventual fw upgrade.

Unless someone can point out why the A20 could be upgraded and the others cannot (such as completely different audio-side makeup compared to all other players), I think its a safe assumption. As for when, that's another story altogether I'm guessing TOSH anticipated DTS-MA and built the players to be able to upgraded accordingly.

It would be GREAT if SOMEONE or ANYONE would comment on the possiblity. I've brought it up like 10 times and nobody says yes or no. I've also asked about 7.1 DD+ and TrueHD audio decoding. I'm guessing this is also possible since TrueHD was upped from 2 channel to 5.1 via fw. Finally (and the farthest reach) would be IF the players can be upgraded to 7.1 via fw, can the analog outs (stereo + 5.1) also be remapped to be useful as well? This is probably a longshot, but again possible.

ANY INSIDERS KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT POSSIBLITIES??? I'm not asking if it will be done, but if it can be done with the exhisting hardware via fw upgrade.

Thanks!

Thanks for the excellent post and questions! After the Panasonic DMP BD10 issue and DTS-MA (many thought it would be fw upgradable and found out the chip inside it doesn't have enough power-per Kjack) I am guarded with any of my assumptions.
Reply
Reply
post #13 of 31
5/11/07 at 7:48am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the help.
Reply
Reply
post #14 of 31
5/11/07 at 8:06am
I might be wrong, but don't ALL ths Tosh's use the "Sharc" DSP? I'm pretty sure it says so on my XA1 (can't check at this moment, I'm at work

I don't think matrix-encoding the 7.1 into the 5.1 analog outs would do anyone anygood. Most receivers just amplify the analog ins. They wouldn't separate out the rear to channels and play them on separate rear speakers. I was refering to maybe using the stereo L/R and adding them to the 5.1's.

Ex: You could make the Stereo L/R the FL and FR. Leave C the same. Leave the SL and SR the same. Then make the 5.1 FL/FR into the RL and RR. Something to that affect so you could use 7.1 out into the receiver 7.1 ins. OR I suppose you could just make the Stereo L/R the RL and RR so you only had to remap 2 channels.
Reply
Reply
post #15 of 31
5/11/07 at 9:34am
There are different revisions of the SHARC DSP lines, some are firmware updatable others not. I imagine Toshiba used the updatable on the XA1/XA2 but not he A1/A2/A20

I could be wrong in this logic though. I am pleased to say DD+ and TrueHD have me content, unless of course DTS-MA HD makes full use of the system I have in place with 7.1, and 7.1 PCM out.

~Bobby
Reply
Reply
post #16 of 31
5/16/07 at 1:14pm
So no insiders or dealers out there with ANY INFO to give on the subject? The silence is defeaning every time this topic is brought up.

Every reference I look at says the same thing about the audio side of things for all gen1 and gen2 Tosh players:


Built-in Dolby Digital Plus 5.1 , Dolby True HD 5.1, DTS 5.1, DTS-HD (core only)

Four 32-bit Floating Point Signal Processors, High Performance Sharc DSP

Multi-Channel 24-bit/192kHz Audio DACs

HDMI Audio support up to 5.1 L-PCM


So if there are no differences on the audio side of the hardware among the players...
Reply
Reply
post #17 of 31
5/16/07 at 1:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by khellandros66 View Post

There are different revisions of the SHARC DSP lines, some are firmware updatable others not. I imagine Toshiba used the updatable on the XA1/XA2 but not he A1/A2/A20

I could be wrong in this logic though. I am pleased to say DD+ and TrueHD have me content, unless of course DTS-MA HD makes full use of the system I have in place with 7.1, and 7.1 PCM out.

~Bobby

The A1/D1/XA1/HDV5000 use the identical circuitboards and components and yes, they also use reflashable SHARC processors -- that's how the G1 players picked up 5.1 DD-THD last September (previously 2.0).

PS. Robert of VE reported being told by Toshiba reps last Fall that the G2 players would be upgraded with DTS-HD MA -- G1 players were not mentioned. However, this information should be considered speculative.
Reply
Reply
post #18 of 31
5/18/07 at 6:26am
So is it true that the A20 and the XA2 wouldnt beable to send the DTS-MA via bitstream through HDMI 1.3 into a 1.3 receiver?
Reply
Reply
post #19 of 31
5/18/07 at 9:03am
The A20 only has HDMI 1.2a so it can't. The jury is still out on the HD-XA2 since it has HDMI 1.3. Unless we get an official statement from Toshiba -- we are going to have to wait till somebody reports back on what happens with HDMI audio/bitstream connection using an Onkyo 605 AVR.
Reply
Reply
post #20 of 31
5/18/07 at 10:21am
IMO the A20 is nothing more then a newer revision of the A2, only with 1080p enabled

~Bobby
Reply
Reply
post #21 of 31
5/18/07 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

The A20 only has HDMI 1.2a so it can't. The jury is still out on the HD-XA2 since it has HDMI 1.3. Unless we get an official statement from Toshiba -- we are going to have to wait till somebody reports back on what happens with HDMI audio/bitstream connection using an Onkyo 605 AVR.

Well, it's been discussed in other HDMI 1.3 threads, it really does no matter (1.2, 1.3, ...) since most HD DVD movies are required to be decoded AND mixed in the player.

Further, not all HDMI 1.3 devices are capable of passing/receiving advanced audio streams (these are optional features of 1.3). It's a total mess. See insiders thread comments by Amir and Keith.

As far as DTS-HT MA support, it's not mandatory for HD DVD, so I don't know why studios simply just use TrueHD, given its support is mandatory and both are lossless.
Reply
Reply
post #22 of 31
5/18/07 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolintheRain View Post

So no insiders or dealers out there with ANY INFO to give on the subject? The silence is defeaning every time this topic is brought up.

Every reference I look at says the same thing about the audio side of things for all gen1 and gen2 Tosh players:


Built-in Dolby Digital Plus 5.1 , Dolby True HD 5.1, DTS 5.1, DTS-HD (core only)

Four 32-bit Floating Point Signal Processors, High Performance Sharc DSP

Multi-Channel 24-bit/192kHz Audio DACs

HDMI Audio support up to 5.1 L-PCM


So if there are no differences on the audio side of the hardware among the players...


Probably not.
Reply
Reply
post #23 of 31
5/18/07 at 12:44pm
Those of you who calls for 7.1 should realise that there is no thetrical format out there like that. The 6 ch "discrete" DTS ES is a HT format, and no commercial decoder support it.
The current Dolby True HD and BD's PCM tracks of the highest quality available, and carries the actual film soundtrack mixed for[home] exhibition, however most commercial cinemas are still use lossy DD and DTS sound for their theaters, so we actually getting vastly superrior sound right now on both HD formats, then most cinema goers get.
However they are not 7.1, and right now only matrixing in the receiver or the player that can achieve that, well sort of. It won't be a discrete 7.1. Of course studios could create 7.1 DD THD and DTS HD-MA tracks I'm sure as they are capabale to carry that info.


As for DTS HD-MA what exactly the advantage of that over Dolby's THD? Nothing, I don't know why people cry for that, once again DTS delivers a redundant product too late for to be included into the standard of HD DVD. If you a fan of DTS you'll may found it on some BR discs.
Reply
Reply
post #24 of 31
5/18/07 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

As for DTS HD-MA what exactly the advantage of that over Dolby's THD? Nothing, I don't know why people cry for that, once again DTS delivers a redundant product too late for to be included into the standard of HD DVD. If you a fan of DTS you'll may found it on some BR discs.

Just because it is not part of the HD-DVD standard doesn't mean players will not incorporate support for it in the future. As an example: TrueHD 5.1 is not required in the HD-DVD standard, but the players have been updated to support it. Honestly, I am unsure how you can claim it is redundant and offers no advantage... Nobody has been able to sample it yet, so unless you know something we don't...I'll reserve judgement until the codec is actually sampled by audiophiles and we get some reviews.
Reply
Reply
post #25 of 31
5/18/07 at 6:42pm
I agree that DTS-HD MA will be redundant with Dd TrueHD, but unfortunately some people like a "label". It's perceived as superior by many people. And to be honest, everyone wants a player that decodes everything. It would just make the HD DVD players complete. Also, some studios like to use DTS on releases over DD. Look at the overseas releases.

6.1 and 7.1 are coming (actually 6.1 is already on a handful of HD DVDs and BD). We are all aware that studio masters are 5.1 or 5.1 with a matrixed EX channel. The point is that there are plenty of DVDs remastered in 6.1 (whether it be matrix or discrete...I own over 50 that I can think of). Those soundtracks are being ported over to HD DVD and BD. Not to mention that there have been 7.1 soundtracks announced (LOTR comes to mind AND its advertised in both HD DVD and BD ads). True, they aren't out yet, but it is one of the ways studios get you to purchase a movie again. Why argue against something? There will be discs with it, so I want my player to be able to decode it.

The reason we want it is the reason you want any tech- b/c its available and WILL be taken advantage of. If you are happy with 5.1, good for you. I listen to all my DVDs with one of the following options

a) DD-EX (mono rears)
b) DD-PLIIx (stereo rears)
c) DTS-ES (mono rears)
d) DTS-Neo6 (mono rears)

because I have a 7.1 setup. Is it subtle, of course, but its glorious.

The next gen of HD DVD players will support these 2 things we speak of, I'm sure. They will have to to stay competitive. The question is if us early adopters will be able to take advantage.
Reply
Reply
post #26 of 31
5/18/07 at 10:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

Just because it is not part of the HD-DVD standard doesn't mean players will not incorporate support for it in the future. As an example: TrueHD 5.1 is not required in the HD-DVD standard, but the players have been updated to support it. Honestly, I am unsure how you can claim it is redundant and offers no advantage... Nobody has been able to sample it yet, so unless you know something we don't...I'll reserve judgement until the codec is actually sampled by audiophiles and we get some reviews.


What codec? They both the same PCM losslesly compressed to fit on smaller places. I hate to tell you this but this is widely known, so if I where you I wouldn't hold my breath for what audiophools will tell you.
Reply
Reply
post #27 of 31
5/18/07 at 10:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolintheRain View Post

I agree that DTS-HD MA will be redundant with Dd TrueHD, but unfortunately some people like a "label". It's perceived as superior by many people. And to be honest, everyone wants a player that decodes everything. It would just make the HD DVD players complete. Also, some studios like to use DTS on releases over DD. Look at the overseas releases.

6.1 and 7.1 are coming (actually 6.1 is already on a handful of HD DVDs and BD). We are all aware that studio masters are 5.1 or 5.1 with a matrixed EX channel. The point is that there are plenty of DVDs remastered in 6.1 (whether it be matrix or discrete...I own over 50 that I can think of). Those soundtracks are being ported over to HD DVD and BD. Not to mention that there have been 7.1 soundtracks announced (LOTR comes to mind AND its advertised in both HD DVD and BD ads). True, they aren't out yet, but it is one of the ways studios get you to purchase a movie again. Why argue against something? There will be discs with it, so I want my player to be able to decode it.

The reason we want it is the reason you want any tech- b/c its available and WILL be taken advantage of. If you are happy with 5.1, good for you. I listen to all my DVDs with one of the following options

a) DD-EX (mono rears)
b) DD-PLIIx (stereo rears)
c) DTS-ES (mono rears)
d) DTS-Neo6 (mono rears)

because I have a 7.1 setup. Is it subtle, of course, but its glorious.

The next gen of HD DVD players will support these 2 things we speak of, I'm sure. They will have to to stay competitive. The question is if us early adopters will be able to take advantage.


I'm not against or arguing against 7.1, I simply reminded some of you that it isn't a theatrical format so it would needed extra work to create those, which costs money. I'm sure studios will offer some in the future, but if DTS ES is any indication, it won't be a large number of those.
Reply
Reply
post #28 of 31
5/18/07 at 11:07pm
It may cost more for 7.1 but taking how they can take old 2.0 soundtracks from the 60s 70s and what not and make them 5.1, i dont see it being too difficult to make movies that were mastered in 5.1 to receive two extra channels in the back of them. Expecially now with HD-DVD and blu-ray both supporting 7.1 lossless channel audio people will start to want these eventually.
Reply
Reply
post #29 of 31
5/19/07 at 3:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

What codec? They both the same PCM losslesly compressed to fit on smaller places. I hate to tell you this but this is widely known, so if I where you I wouldn't hold my breath for what audiophools will tell you.

Why don't you just admit you are a Dolby rep or cheerleader here. It's all I have seen from you. Are you really saying that Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA are the same and since TrueHD was first, DTS sucks so we don't need it? What are you really saying here? All bow down to Dolby? Maybe if DTS just went away, Dolby could charge a premium?
Reply
Reply
post #30 of 31
5/19/07 at 8:21am
It's not what I'm saying it is what it is. If you lack the basic knowledge on these formats don't go around an accuse me of anything, but rather educate yourself, and might just elevate yourself from this silly argument of Dolby vs DTS.
I actually prefer neither, I'm just as happy with straight PCM but you would know that if you really had paid attention to my posts.
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: HD DVD Players

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › HD DVD Players › Lack of DTS-Master HD