Official Toshiba 65HM167 and 57HM167 Owner's thread - Page 11

Can someone (with HD-A2 or 360 set to 1080i) PLEASE comment on the video performance?

From the low, low price on the 65", I knew something had to give and now we know what......not a good thing since 1080i is more often used than 720p in the current market

I luv the HD-A2's 1080i performance right now on my Hitachi CRT set and I also have no plans to trade up to a Xbox Elite, considering I just bought it (second time) recently.

Frag

I think last year's models were probably the same, so there was likely no affect on the price. The lower price was more likely due to a combination of competitive factors and dropping Cablecard, POP, TV Guide, an RF slot, and the ethernet port.

I agree with Shelly about the quality of HD on this set, though I think I'll cancel my order for the A2 in favor of getting the XA2 at some point. I may as well take full advantage of the Toshiba's capabilities. I was in on the $199 deal for the A2 too.

I still have 25 days to return it, but the big, beautiful picture with dark blacks appeals to me so much. I guess as along as I use quality 1080p devices on HDMI, then I will get moneys worth essentially bypassing this sets scaler altogether. Wow, I can't believe Discovery HD is more beautiful than my eyes are seeing on this set.

Yes, but only when watching film-based programs like CSI, ER, movies, etc and HD DVD/BRDs on players limited to 1080i60 output.

However, you should be aware that the loss of resolution is not an all or none scenario. When there is no movement you still get full 1080. It is when there is movement, that the resolution starts to drop. It can drop all the way down to 540 if there is a lot of movement and it is most noticeable during horizontal pans.

All 1080i video-based programs (regardless of source) do just fine with this TV and stay at 1080 since this sets passes the HD Video Resolution Loss test.


Since this is a 1080p set, you always see 1080 lines no mater what the source. The issue is that not all of those 1080 lines are discrete depending on the source signal.

A DVD is a 480i source. All an upconverting DVD player does is take the 480 lines worth of resolution on a DVD, deinterlace it, and upscale it to 1080 lines. The player's video processor does the deinterlacing and then interpolates (makes up) the additional 600 lines required for upscaling.

Any 1080p TV does this exact same thing when you just hook up a regular 480i player. However, the earlier TVs didn't do it very well since the internal 480i video processors were lacking. The upconverting players used better processors and were introduced so that the TV's processors could be bypassed.

However, an upconverting DVD player is typically no longer necessary since the latest generation of HDTVs have 480i processors better or equal to what you find in most sub $300 upconverting DVD players offered today. Most HDTVS offered today deinterlace and upscale 480i quite well.

This must explain why Scrubs (and possibly Law and Order) doesn't look all that great (but better than SD). I haven't really noticed this with any other show, as everything on Discovery, House on Fox, all sports, etc. must be video and not film.

Does the TV's film vs. video pulldown modes (user selectable) have any affect on the deinterlacing?

Hello, thanks for the response.

So to overcome this 1080i thing - I would need to look out for a BR/HD DVD player that output 1080p via HDMI in the near future. I am waiting for the prices on those player to drop to $200 range as I won't buy one for $700 and it will be ALOT cheaper in a year or 2.

What about the HD channels on my cable? While I only have analog programming on my $10/mo cable, I can get the HD channels (FOX, ABC, NBC, CBS and a couple demos ones) with built in tuner. I've only been watching FOX HD - but will be watching Lost on ABC once season 4 is started. I just want to make sure I'll get the best picture possible when I DO get the digital HD packages. Please advise.

It is true that resolution is only one factor out of many to consider. In fact, the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF) found that the most important aspects of picture quality are (in order): 1) contrast ratio, 2) color saturation, 3) color accuracy, 4) resolution. Resolution is 4th on the list.

Also, what most people don't even realize is that 1080 lines worth of resolution cannot even be fully appreciated by the 20/20 human eye (it is physically/anatomically impossible) UNLESS certain screen size and viewing distances are met. Sit too far away and your eyes cannot discern all 1080 lines. Like-wise, if your screen size is too small.

For instance, if your viewing distance is 10', your screen size must be roughly 75" for you to be able to fully discern all 1080 lines on a 1080 set. At 10', as long as you stay under a 50"screen size, you only need a 720 set, as your eyes simply cannot appreciate the additional resolution offered by a 1080 set under those conditions.

See this link for more great info: http://www.carltonbale.com/2006/11/1080p-does-matter/

Excellent question. I tried both settings, Video and Film, just to be sure. The set still failed under either setting.

Also, you never will notice it on Fox since Fox broadcasts everything in 720p.

Yes, but you must make sure the player still deinterlaces the 1080i correctly. Even though a HD DVD/BR player may output 1080p60, it still may be have gotten to there by deinterlacing the 1080i incorrectly. The HD-A20 is such an example. The only HD DVD player that I know of that currently does the deinterlacing correctly, is the HD-XA2. There may be some BR players out there as well.

Your other option is to buy a TV that does it correctly. All JVC, Pioneer, and Hitachi models do it. Some of the soon to be released models from the other manufacturers may do it as well. They will just need to be tested to be sure.


It doesn't mater what package you get. Just make sure you get a box with a "native" or "bypass" mode. That will allow the TV to process the signal directly, which is better for the reasons I explained earlier.

Since the issue is only with 1080i moving sources, I wonder if one workaround would be setting the HD-A2 and XBox 360 to output 720p instead of 1080i

No, the issue is only with 1080i FILM-BASED moving sources. Again, all 1080i video-based sources maintain full resolution.

Also, all HD DVD/BR source material is on the disc at 1080p (1920x1080 or 2,073,600 pixels). If you set either the HD-A2 or Xbox 360 to output 720p (1280x720 or 921, 600 pixels), you are losing over 1 million pixels worth of resolution (or 33% or the vertical resolution). INO, doing this really defeats the purpose of having a HD DVD/BR player to begin with.

I admit to not having a full handle on the HQV test protocol, but if I am reading this right (and I might not be ) it seems to be at odds with what The Perfect Vision found using the HVQ Benchmark DVD in its review of last year's 72HM196. (All indications from Toshiba are that this year's models use the same or slightly improved Talen processing as last year's models.)

In it's review (available here), The Perfect Vision said, "The processor picked up 3:2 pulldown reliably, but not so quickly. The same was true for a 3:2-pulldown test clip in 1080i from HD DVD. However, once it did lock on, the clip looked exceptionally smooth, leading me to suspect that it must be performing inverse telecine instead of motion-adaptive deinterlacing."

Also, "Looking at a pixel-phase test pattern (which indicates the relationship between the imager's actual pixel structure and the pixels in the processed image), Dave and I determined that the Natural aspect-ratio setting looks like a 1:1 modethat is, we were able to easily discern each pixel in the imager...I love watching HD DVDs on a good 1080p display, and the 72HM196 did not disappoint. Blazing Saddles exhibited all the detail and clarity endemic to that title, with great color...The importance of a 1:1 mode cannot be overstated when it comes to 1920x1080 contentwithout it, whatever scaling the processor does definitely degrades the image. This is one reason the 72HM196 looked so good displaying HD DVDs (as long as its Natural aspect ratio was selected). Another factor is its apparent use of inverse telecine to deinterlace 1080i content, resulting in smooth, artifact-free motion."

Not having used the HQV benchmark, what I'm wondering is where The Perfect Vision said, "The processor picked up 3:2 pulldown reliably, but not so quickly" -- do you need to let the benchmark run for awhile in order to detect this? If so, might this account for the difference in results?

I ran the benchmark 3 times to check for consistency - it failed all 3 times. Did TPV ever say what benchmark they used? Was it HD HQV? I doubt it based on your quotes since the HD HQV film test is not subjective - it either passes the test or it doesn't. There is no "leading".

Also, when HT tested the 62MX196 in Feb 2007, it failed the HD HQV film test. I believe the 62MX196 uses the same Talen/PixelPure processing as the 72HM196 - yes? See results here: http://www.hometheatermag.com/rearpr...ce/index4.html
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Processing was fairly average. The 62MX196 picked up the 3:2 sequence with 480i on both the Gladiator clip and the Silicon Optix disc. The waving flag from Silicon Optix had some jagged edges, but it wasn't too bad. While the 62MX196 deinterlaced 1080i/30 correctly, it wasn't able to pick up the 3:2 sequence (like most of the displays here).
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Anyone who wants to confirm my results for themselves on the 57HM167 can pick up HD HQV here: http://www.hqv.com/benchmark.cfm It's only $20.

Areu4real/Tim/Shelly

Your contribution is highly appreciated by me and Im sure I speak for other 'noobs' too on this thread .

Keep it coming.....even with its flaws, I might still pick up the 65" Toshiba.....Worst case scenario, when I move my 57" CRT RPTV to my bedroom, the HD-A2 may move with it and by that time, the prices on the A20 should have fallen too.

I went to my rental property today to pick up my tenants rent and since its close to CCity, we stopped by there briefly and I showed that Toshiba to the wife (shes one of those people that can hardly tell the difference between SD and HD ) and she was like "hon...so thats our new TV?" with wonder in her voice.....

Another question for current owners:::
How does the Toshiba handle SD 480i material? Does it actually display it with 4:3 and borders all around or there is a 'stretch' mode to expand it? And yes, I can live with the 'fat people' look as long as the screen is filled up.

I currently have Dish 322 standard receiver so dont have any HD programming and neither do I have plans to upgrade to HD....my reasons are that I hardly watch TV at all and the majority of my TV viewing is based on 60% movies, 30% console and 10% regular TV viewing....I simply dislike the content on TV
Frag

PS: Even though I hate the waiting game but Im hoping by footy season, the prices may fall down even more. Honestly, every time I turn on my Hitachi, I want it to fail right there so I have an reason for replacement but damn wouldn't .

Does anyone use the RCA audio outputs on these things? Any hum (a.k.a. buzz)? I have the 57HM167 and there's a serious hum on the RCA audio outputs. I don't have any way to test the optical output. But this hum is absolutely killing me! My hope is that this is just a defective unit, that there's a loose wire in there. I mean, they can't possibly ship it like this intentionally, can they?

Fragster,
You can watch SD content that is 4:3 with borders, or you can select a zoom/stretch mode that suits your preference. Of course when zooming, the content tends to look a little worse.

I just got the ideal-lume light for my 65hm167. I just threw it in the back and
haven't calibrated it to be the recommended 10% of the full white of the tv.

Since it's a tube light all the wires and tv mount for the center speaker hardly
have a shadow compared to say a single point of light from a normal bulb. And the
6500k temp really works well with the tv, blends right with it compared to a warm
yellow 15watt I had back there.

I watched over 2 hours with all lights out except for the lume and no eye strain,
and no glare on the tv. Most the time in bright scenes you are so engulfed by the
tv you don't noticed the lighting, and dark scenes you are thankful it's there.

It's hard to take a photo showing what I see from the light and the tv without the
camera under or over exposing on or the other. So I took two photos and
combined them to get a somewhat close picture.

Most hums are the result of ground problems with the cable tv coax connecton.

I use this device in another system that had a hum and also 3 of them to connect the analog outs of my hd dvd player to the receiver. They will totally eliminate the hum.

It was a no brainer for me for the 2 channel system and the $150 to connect up my hd dvd player was a lot cheaper and easier than buying a new receiver with hdmi inputs.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DTI/

Shelly

The 65" Toshiba will present a 53" 4:3 picture with blackish bars on the sides.

Scroll down this page for conversion tool between 16:9 and 4:3.

http://www.cnet.com/4520-7874_1-5108...html?tag=print


Remember that there is no burn-in with a dlp set. But the non stretched picture is slightly sharper.

There are 3 stretch modes but only theater 1 is intended for 4:3 material. Another is a zoom (Theater 2, I think) for letterboxed material. Can't remembeer the 3rd one.

I have been very pleased with the 4:3 picture from sd material but the quality is better through my digital cable box (even with the analog channels 2-72) than with the direct cable coax feed into the Toshiba. The 4"3 is actually better than it was with my previous smaller 57" Sony rptv.

Shelly

For anyone who uses Closed Captioning or subtitles, do you see any dimming effect in letters and other parts of screen, more noticable during dark scene? I can't really tell if I turn off the CC.

I'm not doubting the results of your tests or Home Theater's. Just looking for some insight or explanation on why The Perfect Vision came up with different results using the HQV Benchmark DVD. Their statement that "The same was true for a 3:2-pulldown test clip in 1080i from HD DVD" leads me to think that they used the HD HQV benchmark. In any event, I am glad you brought up this issue because it tells me that I may be disappointed in the PQ of the A2 HD DVD player.

Thanks for the tip, Shelly. Are you saying the problem is in the cable TV signal itself or in the jack on the TV? I'm using an HD box connected to the TV via HDMI so there's no directly connected coax. I could (and will) try disconnecting the HDMI input and see if that helps. And it makes sense that it might: after my last post, I actually unplugged the TV from the electrical outlet and the buzz was still there--so it makes sense that it was coming from somewhere other than the TV! But if I unplug the TV from electricity and I unplug every single input and there's still hum--at that point can I be confident there's a problem with the TV?

If the hum is from the cable--is that something I just have to live with? Will Comcast just laugh if I call to complain about it?

Thanks!

Josh

My Toshiba is dead silent. And if it were coming from the tv, unplugging it would silence the hum.

Unplugging the cable coax from the set top box would be the first thing I'd try. It's not the jack on the tv.

And there is a difference between a buzz and a hum. The hum is due to groud loop conflict and usually will appear only in a stereo/home threater system.

You said that you were using the rca audio outputs from your set top box. Is this to the receiver? Is the hum coming from your stereo speakers or from the tv? You also say that you use just the hdmi to the tv which contradicts using the rca audio outputs. If your hum is coming from the tv and you have nothing other than the hdmi connected, then it might not be groud loop hum.

But the ground loop hum eliminator that I linked is an excellent product with two rca inputs and outputs for your stereo connection. They also have a 30 day trial period.

Shelly

I am curious how this issue manifests itself because I use an Xbox 360 with the HD DVD addon outputting to 1080i and it looks excellent playing HD DVD's and in the 360 dashboard and games and also a Panasonic upconveting DVD player also sending 1080i and that doesnt look too bad either on my 57".

Great--I will try that as soon as I get home! Thanks!


Sorry I wasn't clear: the HDMI is from the cable box to the TV, but yes, I have to use RCA for the audio because the stupid cable box has DVI but not HDMI! I'm using the RCA audio outputs of the TV to connect to an external system (it's not a receiver; it's a pair of Bose Personalized Amplification Systems; they're WAY overpowered for this use but I figure that rather than just have them sitting around when I'm not DJing with them, I should get some use out of them! Each of the TV's audio output jacks is connected by a single RCA male to 1/4" tip-sleeve (unbalanced) male cable to an unbalanced 1/4" jack on a Bose PAS). The hum is only detectable in the output of the TV to the external system (and by the way, that's true if I send the output to other external systems as well--in order to eliminate variables, I did try). Note that the TV and the Bose PASs are connected to the same power-conditioning UPS so this isn't an issue of different circuits coming into play.

So if the hum is from Comcast, will they do something to get rid of it?

Thanks!

Josh

A loss of resolution (softening) and artifacts. Watch the MI:3 Vatican scence. It is especially prevalent in that scene.

From my recent posts in this thread:
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However, you should be aware that the loss of resolution is not an all or none scenario. When there is no movement you still get full 1080. It is when there is movement, that the resolution starts to drop. It can drop all the way down to 540 if there is a lot of movement and it is most noticeable during horizontal pans.

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1080i60 may very well look excellent to your eyes, especially when contrasted with SD (480i). However, 1080i60 will never look as good as 1080p60 with this TV. Only if the TV were deinterlacing 1080i60 film-based sources properly, would both look the same.

Ordered this tv today. Should have it in a few days. Will post my impressions then. Thanks for all the good posts thus far.

So if I understand correctly - you're running your STB to the TV via DVI -> HDMI, presumably via a cord with DVI on one end and HDMI on the other. If this is the case there's no sound being transferred from the STB to the TV (since the DVI out is video only)...and the buzz/hum you're getting when connecting the TV audio out to your external system is probably the buzz/hum of your system being on but no audio signal to play! In order to get sound from the STB to your speakers, you will either need to connect the STB to the speaker system via RCA or Optical (if optical is an option on both the STB and your speakers).

So you'd have STB -> TV via your DVI to HDMI cable for video and STB -> Speakers (BOSE PAS) via RCA or Optical for audio.

Another option would be to run your audio from your STB to TV via RCA cables and then from the TV out to your speakers, but that would seem like an unneeded step to me...