Official Toshiba 65HM167 and 57HM167 Owner's thread - Page 14

The Gefen scaler would work IF it does 1080i IVTC (film-source deinterlacing)correctly and 1080i video deinterlacing correctly.

I looked at the manual and it's ambiguous. It says, "Automatic 3:2 pull-down & 2:2 pull-down detection and recovery." This is another way to say IVTC. I'm sure it does IVTC correctly on the 480i inputs - what you need to confirm is if it does IVTC on the 1080i inputs as well. The 1080i processing takes much more computational power.

You would also need to confirm if the video deintelacing is using both 540 line fields from the 1080i inputs to generate the 1080p output. Gefen calls this, "Dual 3-D motion video adaptive de-interlacers with smooth low-angle edge." Cheap video deintelacers only use one 540 line field and discard the other - the result is 540 lines worth of resolution with artifacts with a 1080i video source. If the Gefen is only using one field - it's video deintelacing would actually be a step down from the Toshiba, which does it correctly.

Summary: The 167 line handles both film and video sent as 480i correctly (i.e. any type of DVD sent as 480i). It also handles video sources sent via 1080i correctly. The only place it falls short is with film-based sources sent as 1080i.

Video game frames (which are generated progressively like film) sent as 1080i will also result is resolution loss. This is true for ANY TV. Setting the game console output to 1080p eliminates the deinterlacing step within the TV. Therefore, the game console output should always be set to 1080p to maintain full resolution to the screen.

Hmm, so even if I replaced my A1 with a A20 I technically wouldn't get a better picture compared to what I'm seeing with 1080i to my 167. I'll have to test that vatican scene with brickwork where they do their fake engine problem.

So I have to ask this. If the 167 doesn't do it right either, which setting would yield a better image? 720p or 1080i from a A1? If it only uses 1920*540, then that's not exactly a whole lot more pixels than 720p and with 720p you wouldn't have the obvious moire and other issues from the conversion. So what do you guys do?

Yes, resolution-wise, both would be equal when viewed on the 167. The MPEG noise reduction or other features of the A20 could be superior to the A1, though.


With 1080i, the loss of resolution is not an all or none scenario. When there is no movement you still get full 1080. It is when there is movement, that the resolution starts to drop. It can drop all the way down to 540 if there is a lot of movement and it is most noticeable during horizontal pans. If there is a lot of movement and high-detail scenes on the HD DVD, 720p would probably look better.

It also depends on your screen size and viewing distance. What most people don't realize is that 1080 lines worth of resolution cannot even be fully discerned by the 20/20 human eye (it is physically/anatomically impossible) UNLESS certain screen size and viewing distances are met. Sit too far away and your eyes cannot discern all 1080 lines. Like-wise, if your screen size is too small. If you sit far enough away or have a small enough screen, chosing 720p over 1080i is a no-brainer.

See this link for more great info: http://www.carltonbale.com/2006/11/1080p-does-matter/

Look at the 1st chart. If your combination of screen size and viewing distance does NOT fall within the area between the red and green lines, you should definitely choose 720p. If it does, experiment to see what looks better, but like I said, if there is a lot of movement and high-detail scenes, 720p would still probably look better than 1080i.

Um....I think I made a mistake when buying my DVE calibration disk. I think there are two versions of it(regular DVE & HD DVE), and the one I bought was just the regular DVE. Was this the wrong choice? I've already *tried* to calibrate the TV using the regular DVE, but I had trouble with some of the calibration features such as using the included filter screen on that calibration chapter for color and tint(only the blue filter was the one that came out right).

With that said, should I buy this HD DVE version instead? Would I need an HD-DVD player to use it or can I use it on a regular DVD?

You'd need an hd-dvd player to use it, though, the HD-DVD version has the regular dvd version on the other side of the disc. I don't have either so I don't know eactly what kind of new HD tests would benefit you from rebuying it. Someone else will know.

Have any xxHM167 owners found the discrete remote codes for "Power On" and for "Power Off". My Harmony remote only does a power toggle, as does the original Toshiba remote.

Ron Jones

UPDATE: I found that my inexpensive "One-for-All" learning remote includes as advanced codes the discrete Power On and Power Off that works with my 65HM167. FYI: The One-for-All device code is 0156 and the EFC codes are 06 for ON and 10 for OFF. I set up my One-for-All for this device then used it to progam my Harmony for the discrete power on and off. I don't know why it wasn't already in the Harmony data base.

Nice link, enjoyed the info. One thing people forget is they need to think about their video room, limitations, viewing scenarios ect. For me, most of my viewing is at 14 feet so going as large as possible was an option, but some viewing is done at 8ft (kids playing games), also at 25 feet (from kitchen was has great line of site to TV) but my wall for the TV isn't infinate in size and I'm not willing to pay megabucks on a TV to maximize viewing pleasure. An we can overalize things to death also. I have a 65 inch 1080p, not always seeing 1080p, but it really has worked out nice.

thanks for your posts,
avs marty

Hope all goes well with your set delivery and that it exceeds your expectations.

In the stores I have visited, the demo loop is either video or animation. My experience is that video based sources are great at showing off a set, as opposed to many film based sources.

If you lose 1/2 the resolution of 1080i you still end up with a pq that is about a detailed as the S-VHS standard or Laser Discs. This is still a fair picture.

I can't believe that Toshiba has a problem with these sets passing full resolution. They are the only game in town for HD DVD players, most of which output 1080i as a maximum resolution.

My understanding is that even the A20 HD DVD player screws up the 1080p output and that only the top of the line XA2 does it properly.

Not a good way to launch a new technology when you show it off on your own sets at less than it's best.

I hope Toshiba fixes this via a software update. I kind of doubt it, as I've heard that this is the last year for Toshiba to produce sets using this technology and the fact that they have been very slow to fix issues with their HD DVD players, often carying problems over from generation to generation.

The issues I have with these sets that prevent me from buying now:

1. The 1080i issue with film sources. Regardless of what high def dvd player you buy, much of the HD content will remain on HDTV @ 1080i. Makes no sense to me to buy a set that doesn't handle all 1080i source types properly, as that is what we'll be seeing for the forseeeable future.

2. Toshiba's uncertain lamp life. The owner's manual doesn't indicate a part number for the replacement lamp. Says to call them if you need one.

If the lamp used is the same as the one used in last year's DLP models, there are indications that these have a short lifespan and higher than average replacement cost.

I know people will jump in and say that Toshiba had a bad batch of lamps a couple of years ago and that all is well with the current version. Reading comments on the last year model of Toshiba sets shows that these lamps are starting to fail with far less than the rated number of hours on them.

If it is the same lamp in these sets, they are a ticking time bomb for lamp replacement.

An extended warranty that covers unlimited lamps would be essential on these sets, figuring that most would buy another set by the time the warranty expires.

Still, there is the down time that a lamp problem introduces.

3. Sloppy assembly. The issues that have been reported show a lack of qc by Toshiba. The screen and geometry issues are indicative of a quality program that tests for a working product, but neglects simple things like junk on the inside of the screen or a tilted picture.

This is unacceptable on a tier 1 manufacturer.

On the plus side, these sets do have an outstanding picture on the demos I've seen and the price can't be beat for the screen size.

Most of the sets out there have the same limitation as the 167 models. Why are folks thinking that you won't get a fantastic, eye popping picture from film sources?

Yes, there is a loss of resolution, but not for long, seconds really, and only with fast scans or fast motion. Usually the movie's action has you so engrosed that you probably won't notice. It all happens very fast. During all other scenes in the movie, you will get the full resulution. There is no comparison to s-vhs. The 167 models look fantastic with any hd movie as well as with sd if you have a good dvd player.

The XA2 is available to forum members for $499 + $20 shipping from Value Electronics, forum sponser. It's a one time investment and given the low price of the 167 models, the set + XA2 is still much less expensive than purchasing just a different manufacturer's dlp et al.

Shelly

Hello,

I've been lurking for awhile, and thought I would chime in.

I have had the 57HM167 for nearly two weeks, and the picture quality is great. DVE is ordered and on the way - I can't wait to fine tune the set.

I have some noob questions that members might help me with:

I have read some posts that say turn MPEG Reduction and CableClear off to minimize processing. True?

If I have Cinema Mode set to film, will I get 1080p24? If not, would I ever need film mode?

I have some concern about lamp life. Will Dynamic Contrast or Static Gamma effect this? Also what about Fast mode - Better?

Finally, I access the service menu to check lamp hrs. What do these items represent?

Power On Time - Actual lamp hrs?
LAMPL - ???
LAMPH - ???
LPON - Times lamp has been turned on?
TMP 1 - ???
TMP 2 - ???

Thanks for a great forum, and the help!

So the resolution loss is only for few seconds? I know the resolution can drop as low as 540p, but is it more movie dependent? Will i see the same quality of movie on a comedy as i would on the new matrix movies, given the mastering onto hd dvd is equal.

A comedy should have much fewer, if any, fast pans, so hat you would get the full rexolution throughout the movie.

Shelly

I believe the 2006 Toshiba RPTVs did deinterlace 1080i more or less correctly (not simply 'bob' the two field to provide 540p/60) but they did not do the 2:3 inverse pulldown for film based sources. I believe this is the real issue that needs to be answered for the new 2007 Toshiba models (i.e, do they do 2:3 inverse pulldown for 1080i sources or not). Also note the that 2006 Samsung and Sony RPTVs also failed to do 2:3 inverse pulldown for 1080i sources. However the FN and FH series of 2006 JVC DILA RPTVs did do this correctly.

That is true. They handle video sources sent via 1080i correctly as do the 2007s (XXHM167 line)


They do not - I tested a 57HM167 with the HD HQV disc and it failed the HD film resolution test. See my earlier post for more info.


Indeed, only TVs by JVC, HItachi, and Pioneer have consistenty passed the HD fillm resolution test in the past.

I too have been lurking on this line for some time. Just got the 65HM167 today...thanks to all for the great info that helped me choose this model!

In the process of updating my Harmony 880 for the 65HM167, Harmony had programmed the remote with commands that are appropriate for a DVD player, but not for a TV (e.g., "ChannelNext", "ChannelPrevious", "Eject", RepeatA-B", "Return", "TopMenu").

Also, the Harmony does not recognize IR commands from the TV remote when trying to program it that way (the remote operates the TV perfectly).

Any one else have this kind of problem? I have submitted an e-mail to Logitech, and will update when I get more info, but wondering if there are others with similar problem.

Ok I got the 65" set today. It definitely needs a professional calibration but that is true of every set I've seen. It did have a couple of black dots inside the screen but they are no more than the size of a pixel so you can't see it beyond 6 feet and I'm sitting at 9 feet. A couple of things I did notice. One was a discoloration across the top of the set. You can't see if from the front but if you look from the top it looks like it's the interior support structure of something. Anyway it's a light gray while the cabinet is a darker gray. Also the set is a little noisy. I thought it was a fan, but I noticed it changes depending on whether a picture is on the screen. No picture and I only hear the fans, a picture and I hear the noise, like it's coming from the lamp. Has anyone noticed any problems like this? Those are the only major problems. It's taking 1080P60 from my VP50 fine, 1080P24 is grayed out for some reason but I would never input 1080P24 into the set anyway. The geometry seems within spec. There is only 1/8 of an inch of difference between the right and left side which is within spec for the Samsung sets so I would think it would be the same with Toshiba. You don't notice it anyway unless you have a test pattern. My main concern is the noise from the lamp. If the sound is down low it is very noticeable and would be annoying to hear it all the time. My build date was May 2007 and the firmware is from March 2007. I guess I have a couple of weeks to mess around with it before I would need to decide on an exchange. I'm just wondering if anyone else's set has exhibited this behavior. Otherwise it does seem to produce a nice picture. Although I probably won' be able to get it calibrated until late Summer since Eliab isn't doing a tour in this area until then. I did also notice that this set has much less banding than my Samsung HLR 1080P set has. I assume that's from the 12/14 bit processing while my HLR only has 8 bit. The difference is obvious on the Digital Video Essentials HD DVD.

I can't imagine the noise being something from the lamp because it's not like the lamp dims, it stays constant, no matter if there's all black or a bright image. Though, the iris or whatever changes depending what's on screen.

I'll review what my set sounds like in those situations. Though I can say when I first got it it did have a noticeable buzzz to it most the time. But I haven't recalled hearing it much this last week. And I swear another 65hm167 I had from a different store before I returned it I rechecked the sound on that one near return time and I swear it was nothing like when I first got it, I had to get up right to it and try to hear.

Here's hoping that things get quieter as the set breaks in, or quieter the longer it's on.

I had it on for 7 hours today. Maybe by the end of the week it will quiet down. Either way for only $1700 from CC it was an excellent deal. I defintely like the set. I think I'll get an extended warranty from that Texas company that some one mentioned, once I know for sure I won't be exchanging. I think it was only around $200 for an additional 3 years including bulb replacement. Although I have almost 2 years on the bulb in my Samsung with no problems.

I am down to the Sony 55A2020 and the Toshiba 57HM167. Was leaning towards Sony after being all set on Samsung 5076 till the bowing of screen issue emerged with their new sets. NOW I hear Sony can not do 1080 in VGA I could live with 720P but they say Sony has Large Black borders while in VGA that can not be removed with screen adjustments. Does the Toshiba have black borders while in VGA? Where are the Borders are they on Top and Bottom, Sides or Top and bottom and sides? Reason I am concerned regarding VGA is due to the fact I have an Xbox 360 that requires VGA to upvert DVDs. I guess I could live without that but would like to have that option.. Starting to wonder if upverting DVDs is that of an important issue at this point (LOL).. Thanks for any input..

The Toshiba only accepts 640x480, 800x600, and 1024x768 over the VGA input. I wish it took 1920x1080P over VGA like my Samsung does. But I guess I need to use this as an excuse to pick up an Elite. I got my Toshiba mainly for the 1080P HDMI input, for the size, and for the price. So I really can't complian about the lack of 1080P over VGA and Component.

while in VGA are there black borders and if so are they on top and bottom, on the sides or top and bottom and on the sides? Also how large are the borders are they any larger than standard letterbox movie borders? Thanks for any feedback...

I have no idea. It doesn't take 1080P so I never connected it. Those resolutions it takes are not widescreen resolutions and every TV and component I have uses widescreen settings so I don't plan on trying it with my 360. I have it connected by component for now until I get my Elite, then I will input 1080P over HDMI.

Is there a way to turn of the speakers for this set? I don't see a way except to just turn the volume down, but the internal amp would still be on that way. My Samsung has a setting to turn off the internal amp.

Also what about the blue LED? Can that also be turned off or dimmed while watching TV?

On the blue light, I was thinking about dimming it at one point. The small grill panel that covers the lights in the center actually comes off. If you push it it on both sides ( I forget exactly how far in from the sides of the short center panel), it will unlatch and you can remove it. It uses the type of latches that you push in to latch it in and then push in again to release them. You could then probably put something on the end of the clear plastic that passes the blue light to the front to dim it. I got used to the light and it does not bother me any more, but I know when the set was new it did bother me.

Hi,

I just bought a 65HM167 and really enjoy it. I also bought an Onkyo HT-S790 Home Theater System. I got the tv and dvd player working along with the am/fm tuner on the HT-S790 but I can't get the sound from the tv to go through the receiver. Is there a setting on the tv for audio that I need to adjust?

cable in to dvd player
dvd out to cable box
dvd out (video three cables) to tv
dvd HDMI out to tv
cable box out to tv
receiver out to tv (two cables - audio in to audio out)

Any suggestions? I noticed on a diagram that I may need to hook up a 3 cable (Y-PB-PR) from DVD to receiver and then the same connection from reciever to TV. I'm not very smart when it comes to this so any help I can get would be great.

Thanks,
Phil

Will the 57hm167 accept a 1080p/24 signal from the new sony player and keep the full resolution even with panninng and moving scenes?

It's sometimes easier to run your video connections direct to the tv and the audio to the receiver. No need to have both the component video cables (you call them 3 cable) and the hdmi to the tiv.

You seem to have just a cable box and dvd player to connect to both your tv and to your receiver.

(1) dvd hdmi to tv (will give you both hd/sd video and stereo audio in tv)
(2) dvd digital audio (optical or coax) to the receiver. (Assign this input to the dvd input of the receiver and just press dvd button on remote to activate.
(3) cable box hdmi or component video to tv. If hdmi, you have both audio and video in tv. If just component video, then also run left,right audio from cable box to audio inputs next to the component inputs.
(4) cable box digital audio (optical) to receiver. Assign this to whatever input you want to use.
(5) no need to have cable box conected to dvd player

Shelly

I think the preliminary specs showed 1080P24 input, but the manual doesn't mention it anywhere. i know with my VP50 connected to the 65HM167 HDMI input, it only gives me the option for 1080P60. 1080P24 is grayed out. The data the VP50 is getting from the set is telling it that it doesn't accept 1080P24. Whether that is actually true, i don't know. It doesn't affect me since I would never send 1080P24 to this set since my VP50 wil do a better conversion to 1080P60 than the TV is capable of.