Official Outlaw Owners thread - Page 54

I am not an expert but can't one just put a piece of 3/4 inch particle board on the carpet and then the spikes will be the factory height off the floor. I guess what laugsbach did is also OK then you wouldn't need anything else but I personally don't want to see those extensions. Now if he painted them black that would be a different story.

edit......How about a piece of ABS pipe cut into fours like laugsbach did with the cardboard tubing....then there would be no need to paint them.

Genius.

I was floored when my wife didn't want me to paint the extensions black. She thought they blended quite well with the carpet...one less thing that I had to do.


That should work quite well.

I and my subs thank you sir!

They have arrived at their new home, have been set up on either side of the couch as end tables, have had their lamps placed on them to verify to the GF that they are indeed endtables , etc etc etc.

I'm beat so I'm doing no tweaking tonight. They are hooked up in ME mode, set at 3, and I'll say this:

This is a huge difference from the sub they are replacing an Audiosource SW4 (12 inch down firing driver with dual 3 inch down firing ports, rated to 20hz). Laugh if you must, but it served me well for these past 10 years, even if it was a little boomy. It has gone to live with my brother and sister in law, who previously was using a Bose Accoustimess setup. When I was setting up the AS4 he asked "do I really need 3 subs?" Um, dude, those bass modules are not subs, no matter what Bose says,


Clearly, not the AS4 is not same class of sub though as the Outlaws. First thing I noticed right away was that the Outlaws SHAKE things, which the Audiosource did not. It was loud and gave nice thumping and booming LFE effects, but I never heard the windows shake. The bass from the Outlaws I can FEEL, which I never did with the AS4.

I played the opening scene from Superman Returns, when the sun goes supernova. When it actually explodes, I could feel my ears kind of pop. I am wondering if this what people mean when they talk about a sub "pressurizing" a room?

Anyways, off to see what WOTW sounds like with these,

Wow great to hear your enjoying your new sub that just re affirms my purchase thank goodness I made the 439.00 deal. Thanks for the quick but concise review it just makes me even more impatient 40 days and 40 sleepless nights. I sure hope that boat comes in sooner rather than later...

Congrats, enjoy.

laugsbach

How did you determine that 2 inches was the sweet spot?

When I received my first Plus, I had the same opinion as jwv651. It had a muffled sound and when I measured, the sub was only about 1" off the thick carpet.

When I made my extenders, I was going for 1.750" and went over slightly and ended up at 2". Earlier in this thread, there was a post referencing an article about the "optimal" distance for a 12" driver and the author presented his equation for why 2" was ideal for a downward firing sub.

My ears & SPL meter agreed so I left my extenders at 2".

My God, I love my Outlaw subs, but I want the A7.

It would never pass WAF.

2 inches for a 12" driver or any downward firing sub.......how about a 10" driver? Also so I am not too confused you do or do not use a gramma?

I unpacked and positioned my new Plus in my HT setup. Because my room is so small (15 x 11 x 8) I really only have two options for placement. I put it in the same spot my forward-firing (8") Velodyne used to be, and am hoping for the best.

I haven't really done a lot of listening yet, but I did throw in "Kung Fu Panda" on Blu-ray to see how the Plus would do. I admittedly wasn't terribly impressed at first, but over time the sub seemed to perform better and better. I was quite blown away by Tai Lung's landing at the end of the bridge fight sequence - I literally felt the bass wave flow through my body and reverberate out of the room and into the hallway beyond. Cue the big stupid grin.

So, I'd been reading all about the "Ska-doosh!" moment in another thread, and was curious to see how the Plus would handle it. My Velodyne had done a pretty reasonable job with it - you know, pants legs moving and all that. Well, when the moment hit, I was at first chagrined by the loud rattle that accompanied it. So I went back and replayed it, and realized that no, that wasn't the sub bottoming out - that was my house shuddering from the sonic impact!

Also, I don't know if this is related or not, but the rest of my system also seemed to sound better with the Plus attached. I was hearing details in the mid- and upper-ranges I'd never noticed before (I'm running Ascend 340SEs in the L-C-R, and 170SEs in the LS-RS, all connected to an Onkyo 805). I'm not sure if it's a placebo effect because I was listening more intently than I typically do, or if the Plus's more powerful amp relieved the Onkyo of extra duties (the Velodyne was also externally powered), or if it's something else altogether.

Regardless, at this early stage I'm very happy with my purchase, and I look forward to seeing what difference a GRAMMA can provide (arriving tomorrow!).

Guys....quick update. She took it well! I said...it's really bigger than I imagined...looked worried...and she just acted like it was nothing! HEEEE

I do not use a Gramma. I like the way all of the subs sound with the carpet and just wanted a little more room underneath and 2" works for my subjective/REW results and the article was specific to a 12" driver. If you have a thick carpet, just experiment with small blocks of wood/tile to raise your sub. I experimented with 3" as well.

FWIW, I have a poured concrete floor with a .5" thick high density carpet pad and a .5" thick carpet. Also, I'm sure my room plays a role in this.

The Gramma is going to do the same thing as my extensions and I would think, more. I will search for the article...

I hope this helps.

I have a question about testing subs. You can download Bink Audio Test CD or just the frequency's you want in a wave file form here: http://binkster.net/extras.shtml
Then burn it to CD disk and play the wave file in your DVD player. If you set your surround speakers to small or above 60 Hz the sound will only come from the sub.

Has anyone tested their outlaw with different frequency's such as 16Hz,20Hz,25Hz,30Hz,40Hz etc. Just to see what kind of extension the sub has and how clean it is at different volumes.
This would also help when it comes to sub placement by moving sub to different locations and finding where it sounds the best.

Yesterday I tested my Sony sub and below 40 Hz all distortion even lower volumes.
Now the long wait for the back ordered Outlaw EX.

Please check back with your thoughts on the GRAMMA. BTW, were you in ME mode for KFP?

I have used the Rives Audio CD to do the same thing. I did this to prepare for REW/BFD and to get a general idea of my room before investing the time to learn/set-up REW/BFD.

http://www.rivesaudio.com/software/softframes.html

Hi archer and welcome. We typically use Room EQ Wizard (REW) software to generate frequency sweeps and response graphs, then use a parametric EQ such as the Behringer Feedback Destroyer (BFD) to smooth out the response.

With REW, you can quickly generate graphs for multiple sub positions to find out which yields the flattest response and requires the least correction.

Here are links to the Home Theater Shack REW and BFD Forums where you can get the best and most complete info and help from experts.

Room EQ Wizard (REW) Information Index - Start Here:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ease-read.html

REW & BFD Forums
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfd-forum/

For reference, here are my REW response graphs before and after EQing with BFD. The Volume knob on the EX is at 3 and the Subwoofer level coming out of the Onkyo 606 receiver is at 0dB. Crossover is set at 80Hz for all 7 channels. As you'll see, I'm measuring flat down to 14Hz in my 4,200 ft^3 room:

Before EQ:
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...-nofilters.jpg

After EQ:
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...edplugxo80.jpg

Here's the layout of my room with the location of the Sub Cal marked:
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m.../HTLayout2.jpg

Hope this is helpful.

WOW, EQing with BFD made a big difference. Thanks for the links and info.

There are quite a few fans of the Subdude/GRAMMA in the other thread, so I'm hopeful that it will provide similar benefits for me. Tighter bass, fewer house rattles ... I hope to increase both my enjoyment as well as WAF simultaneously. I hope to test it out later tonight.


Yup. My primary reason for upgrading was to hear frequencies below the 35Hz threshold on my Velodyne (on paper; I'm positive I've heard it go lower). In a room as small as mine, I've got no problem with SPLs. Do you think I'd do (even) better with MO?

I watch movies 100% with an occasional concert DVD/Blu-ray. For me, I like ME for movies like KFP. I have had both ME & MO set for long periods and just like ME for my set-up and listening habits. I want to feel the movie and I never stop enjoying the "little girl" screams from my Wife & Daughter.

My next tweaking session will be to set up a "Concert" filter on the BFD to see if I can smooth it out more under ME. I use a House Curve for movies.

Just wanted to drop in and say that the posts about WAF were awesome!

Some of you guys are truly insane!!!

You can say that again!

Awesome job ajstan99.

ajstan99,

Are you using Audyssey and REW/BFD together? Do you turn off your sub before running Audyssey to EQ your other speakers?

Thanks, archer. Once I got rid of the huge peaks at 40Hz and 18Hz, the sound became fuller and I was able to hear/feel the bass at the lower end, instead of hearing the walls/doors rattle.


If you have a small room, I would think you're better with the 16Hz ME tuning (heck, I'm in a big room and prefer ME), but a big part of the fun of a tunable sub is that you can experiment. Might as well give it a shot and see what you think.


Thanks, Larry. You and weverb were a big help.

Hi Bryan and welcome to you as well. Here's a link to the Audyssey thread where an expert is available for questions, but see below for what I (think I) know about Audyssey setup from my experience:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795421

My Onkyo 606 only has Audyssey 2EQ, which doesn't affect the sub, but I used REW and set BFD filters and measurements with only the sub playing and without the Audyssey EQ engaged. Maybe someone with MultEQ (or other advanced Audyssey EQ) could chime in with what to do with the sub in their situation.

Here was my final process (as always, anyone should feel free to chime in and correct any errors and I will update this post):

1. Connect the BFD in the chain, put it into pass-through mode and run Audyessey setup to get the sub level-matched to the system. If the sub was not at 0dB in the receiver setup, I adjusted the volume on the sub and ran Audyssey again. The 0dB setting seems to provide an adequate level to BFD as well as to "wake-up" the sub out of stand-by mode. While I'm sure that a few dB in either direction would be OK, this is what works for me.

2. Set crossover to desired setting. 80Hz recommended. You can adjust the Audysey-determined crossover up (i.e. change Full band/40 Hz/60Hz to 80 Hz) but not down (i.e. change 100Hz, 120Hz, etc. to 80Hz) as you will likely have missing frequencies in your sound.

3. Put receiver into "stereo" mode, turn off Audyssey EQ, disconnect the fronts, and run measurements in REW.

4. Create the filters in REW, upload to the BFD and engage EQ.

5. Measure the response and adjust filters as necessary.

6. Rerun Audyssey with the sub and BFD engaged. Readjust crossover to desired setting (80Hz).

After running with Audyssey EQ engaged for about 4 months, I wound up disengaging the Audyssey EQ and saw how it was muffling my speakers. In parallel, I also reduced the toe-in of my Polk Monitor 50 fronts so they were intersecting 6ft. behind the main seating position, instead of directly at it. (I probably should run Audyssey again just to see the effect.)

I don't miss the DynamicEQ and am enjoying the flat sub response, although I can adjust the Subwoofer output if I so desired. Of course, I'll likely dig back into REW and experiment with some house curves just for fun, (but will see what Larry comes up with first ).

Thank you for describing your EQ process - I'm sure I'll be referring to it at least a few times in the future.

When I got my 805 a year ago, I went to the Audyssey thread and read/skimmed through almost the entire thing. I went home and ran the whole 8-position EQ process and was generally satisfied with the results. Over time, though, I began to be irritated by what I perceived as a muffling of certain high frequencies and muddiness ("blatting"?) from the subwoofer. I disabled Audyssey and was much more satisfied with the results (above and beyond both the "house" Audyssey curve and Audyssey Flat). Thinking I did something wrong the first time, I ran Audyssey again. Same result.

I think I've gone through the process 3-4 times now, most recently with the sub turned off so Audyssey didn't mess with it. While I've liked the way it creates a more seamless soundstage between my speakers, the muffling has just been unacceptable. (Maybe I just prefer a "bright" sound? I dunno.)

I find it interesting that you used Audyssey to level match your sub at 0dB, especially since you end up disabling Audyssey anyway. I've just been using the receiver's test tones and my Rat Shack (old analog) meter to do it. My guess is you wouldn't recommend using Audyssey to level match your sub if you have no intention of using its auto-EQ settings.

Thanks for the info on your experience in re-running Audyssey - I won't get my hopes up.

Regarding using Audyssey to set speaker distance and level, I found it to be spot-on after verifying with the internal test tones, RS meter, and a tape measure. Sure, I could do it manually, but being as I have 2EQ and thus only 3 positions to measure, I'm done within 10 minutes, plus I also get updated Audyssey EQ settings to try out.

Even if it took 20-30 minutes, I'd probably do it anyhow, since half the fun for me is tweaking and seeing the impact of changing various settings.

I agree guys and have my Audyssey MultEQ XT turned off. I really didn't like how Audy was boosting my sub(s) and it seemed to go against what I was trying to do with REW/BFD for my room response.



That is how I do it.

Wow, a fellow Ohioan Tweaker.