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Official Outlaw Owners thread - Page 219

post #6541 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdub1 View Post

Thanks, but sort of confused by the response.... If I turn the gain to 2 (from 3.5) on the sub then it will be less prominent (which isn't what I want). I have recalibrated several times and seem to be getting consistent results. I also have read numerous posts that say as long as audyssey isn't maxed out during calibration (+/-12), then it shouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately I don't have an spl meter to test, but am mainly wondering how many db I can increase the sub trim with the AVR before risking my sub? I have heard many people run 3 db hot from what audyssey sets the trim at, but is there risk in running 6 db or perhaps even 8-10 db hot as long as it doesn't reach the +12 range on the AVR? thanks

If you are at -8 in the receiver, then you have headroom in the receiver, about "20db" worth(-8 to 0, then 0 to +12). So essentially your receiver is sending the sub a really low signal(voltage) & the amp on the sub is having to do more work to amplify the signal. If you set the receiver at lets say, 0, you are then sending more voltage"Sub signal" to the amp on the sub & it has to do less work to amplify the signal. You probably would not overdrive it by setting the receiver at 0 & the sub at 4, but judging by the settings you have listed(if everything is correct) you would be roughly 10db higher in the lfe range. So crank away. To each his own. I highly recommend letting Audyssey calibrate your system.(Not that I'm a pro or anything, just an enthusiast), but if you have everything set-up correctly & follow the Audyssey guidelines it will do a good job for a home set-up. Then afterwards if you want to raise the sub 3-4db, go for it. For me I had a couple budget subs that even after running Audyssey basically just went boom boom(not actually playing bass notes, but making loud distorted sounds biggrin.gif but, after getting the Outlaw it was a clean non distorted sound that actually produced a musical note & it took a couple of week to get used to.
Edited by cadett - 1/8/13 at 12:27pm
post #6542 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadett View Post

^What he said. If you are at -8 in the receiver, then you have headroom in the receiver, about "20db" worth(-8 to 0, then 0 to +12). So essentially your receiver is sending the sub a really low signal(voltage) & the amp on the sub is having to do more work to amplify the signal. If you set the receiver at lets say, 0, you are then sending more voltage"Sub signal" to the amp on the sub & it has to do less work to amplify the signal. You probably would not overdrive it by setting the receiver at 0 & the sub at 4, but judging by the settings you have listed(if everything is correct) you would be roughly 10db higher in the lfe range. So crank away. To each his own.

I am not certain about that... It seems to me that whatever the output signal is from the amp to the driver is what we really need to be concerned about when we think about whether we're going to do damage to the sub. I don't see how it could make a lick of difference whether we're multiplying 2 * 3 or 3 * 2 in order to get six, if you see what I'm saying. Of course, I could be wrong about that and if so I'd love to be educated further in that regard.

That being said, if the channel trim for the sub is so very low that you've reached the noise floor of the AVR's electronics, or that it's an insufficient signal to activate auto on, then some adjustment is going to be needed.
post #6543 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Well, the common convention among Outlaw owners has been to optimize the gain on the sub with the input signal from the receiver by getting it close to zero. The opinion has been that there is some SQ improvement. Whether or not the effect is psychological, still seems worth trying first.
There is also one reason (more rumor; I've never verified it) that MultEQ may not be able to properly adjust sub frequencies when the trim level is too near the extremes.
Moreover, some people new to Outlaw subs, having come from budget subs which have a lot of distortion, are not used to the more refined sound. It's better to try it without all the extra bass added in first for awhile and see if one adjusts to the better SQ.
Finally, the problem could also be bad placement if a sub needs a ton of bass boost beyond what Audyssey determines. Could be there is a huge dip in the frequency response. Might be better to try a different position in the room before resorting to cranking it up with a big boost.

Thanks for the response. I have noticed that the sub sounds a lot less boomy and cleaner with more frequencies that stand out, so this will probably take some getting used to. According to all the reviews for this sub, it should shake my house (only about 1800 sf total). It gets loud and clear, but just want to know what the limit would be in the AVR that's considered safe for trim adjustments. Unfortunately I have an odd shaped room and have tried different placements, but my current placement tends to sound noticeably better than the rest. I will try to optimize the sub's gain (using 0 on the receiver trim as a goal)and see what happens, but I did find this quote :

Chris Kyriakakis

Audyssey

There is no need to worry about getting the speakers to have 0 dB level adjustment. The whole point of calibrating is to let Audyssey measure and automatically set the levels. As long as the sub level is not out of the range that the AVR can handle (–12 dB for most AVRs) then you are fine. This "need" to get the sub close to 0 dB is one of those silly internet myths that have no basis (imagine that!).

June 26, 2012 04:19 pm.
post #6544 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

I am not certain about that... It seems to me that whatever the output signal is from the amp to the driver is what we really need to be concerned about when we think about whether we're going to do damage to the sub. I don't see how it could make a lick of difference whether we're multiplying 2 * 3 or 3 * 2 in order to get six, if you see what I'm saying. Of course, I could be wrong about that and if so I'd love to be educated further in that regard.
That being said, if the channel trim for the sub is so very low that you've reached the noise floor of the AVR's electronics, or that it's an insufficient signal to activate auto on, then some adjustment is going to be needed.

I guess I should have been more specific. I'm not saying that you can just go and turn the receiver up if it's set at -8, after reading what I typed I see how it could be interpreted that way. I guess what I was trying to say was that he was sending the sub a low signal & that the amp might be introducing more distortion, due to the low level on the receiver. I would be willing to bet if he had a spl meter & checked the sub it would be somewhere near 68 instead of 72, just a hunch. If you have a smartphone there are also apps available. Not sure how well they would work with detecting below 200Hz though.
post #6545 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadett View Post

I guess I should have been more specific. I'm not saying that you can just go and turn the receiver up if it's set at -8, after reading what I typed I see how it could be interpreted that way. I guess what I was trying to say was that he was sending the sub a low signal & that the amp might be introducing more distortion, due to the low level on the receiver. I would be willing to bet if he had a spl meter & checked the sub it would be somewhere near 68 instead of 72, just a hunch. If you have a smartphone there are also apps available. Not sure how well they would work with detecting below 200Hz though.

I think I see what you meant, thanks for clarifying. In the end, my suspicion would be that so long as the sub amp gain is set to a low value, 1.5 or 2 or 3, it shouldn't be distorting very much even with fairly strong input signals. These subs are designed to be capable of producing a lot of sound. But I've been wrong before.
post #6546 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdub1 View Post

There is no need to worry about getting the speakers to have 0 dB level adjustment. The whole point of calibrating is to let Audyssey measure and automatically set the levels. As long as the sub level is not out of the range that the AVR can handle (–12 dB for most AVRs) then you are fine. This "need" to get the sub close to 0 dB is one of those silly internet myths that have no basis (imagine that!).
June 26, 2012 04:19 pm.

Thanks for sharing that. It's good to know. Doesn't negate that there might be some audio benefit from optimizing the sub gain with the receiver. But it's helpful to see that it doesn't effect Audyssey's ability to EQ the sub frequencies.
post #6547 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Really? LOL
I'm sorry. I had to laugh. I could see how that movie could be especially punishing. I thought the plaster on my walls was going to come off when the mountain came down biggrin.gif

Yea it was the tidal wave scene. First the clipping of the part where he hits the water left me cringing...than the tidal wave and the unmistakable sound of metal contact....My parents who were over to watch a movie all stared at me after that scene lol. They didn't know what it was so I just tried to play it off cool like it was part of the movie.... hahah

Carefully reran audyssey and never had an issue again. I found that I actually had the sub trim at -10 the first time. I found that if you are going to use an spl meter to set the subs make sure the trim on the avr is set to 0. If the trim is at -4 or whatever the sub gain may actually be higher than you think.
post #6548 of 7087
Just an FYI for those considering purchasing the LFM-1 Plus. It is currently on a 3 week back order. The site won't tell you this. Outlaw claims it is due to the success of their holiday sale.
post #6549 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Yea it was the tidal wave scene. First the clipping of the part where he hits the water left me cringing...than the tidal wave and the unmistakable sound of metal contact....My parents who were over to watch a movie all stared at me after that scene lol. They didn't know what it was so I just tried to play it off cool like it was part of the movie.... hahah
Carefully reran audyssey and never had an issue again. I found that I actually had the sub trim at -10 the first time. I found that if you are going to use an spl meter to set the subs make sure the trim on the avr is set to 0. If the trim is at -4 or whatever the sub gain may actually be higher than you think.

Are you saying that you're sub starting clipping because Audyssey set the trim at -10? thanks
post #6550 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdub1 View Post

Are you saying that you're sub starting clipping because Audyssey set the trim at -10? thanks

In my experience, everytime audyssey set the trim to -8 or less I had bottoming out issues with many scenes. Could possibly be due to a mixture of Dyn EQ and EQ boosting. Ever since I started setting the subs up more precise and got around -3 for a trim I never had those issues again. I am using QuadEXs.
post #6551 of 7087
Turn the gain on the sub down so that the receiver sub trim level at 0db creates a 75db spl at listening position. Then rerun Audyssey.
post #6552 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

Turn the gain on the sub down so that the receiver sub trim level at 0db creates a 75db spl at listening position. Then rerun Audyssey.

Are you saying to do this with an spl meter? or are you saying that optimizing the subwoofer gain with the goal of getting audyssey to set the trim for the sub at 0 is ideal?
post #6553 of 7087
Since we are talking about bottoming, I'll throw a reminder out there. Make sure the MO/ME switch on the back matches the port config you are using (both open, or one plugged and one open).
post #6554 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdub1 View Post

Are you saying to do this with an spl meter? or are you saying that optimizing the subwoofer gain with the goal of getting audyssey to set the trim for the sub at 0 is ideal?

When running Audyssey doesn't a screen come up to level match the sub to 75db? If not you should wan't to have the sub around 75db or (72db with a digital Radio Shack meter) while using the built in avr test tones. That is pretty standard, I know what Kris said & I know that Audyssey is his baby, but in theory, this is the proper way of "level" matching. It helps to keep from, well whats happening with you, from happening. Plus it it balances out the signal sent from the avr, then to the amp, then to the sub. Think of it like this: You are sending 10% of the signal of what you receiver can produce before it starts clipping & distorting, so now that you are sending a low signal the amp just has to work that much harder to amplify the signal to produce the desired db your trying to reach. It might be running at 90% of it's threshold. What you are trying to do is find a happy median. Having one set low & one set high, just says that there is an unbalanced signal being processed. It could be fine & not clipping. There is no way anyone on here can tell you that you are overdriving, but what we are saying is that the majority of the people are running in the -3 to +3 range.
post #6555 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdub1 View Post

Are you saying to do this with an spl meter? or are you saying that optimizing the subwoofer gain with the goal of getting audyssey to set the trim for the sub at 0 is ideal?

SPL meter makes it easier to get the gain set right the first time. Otherwise, you have to run Audyssey multiple times, adjusting the gain each time, until Audyssey comes up with that trim level close to 0.
post #6556 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadett View Post

When running Audyssey doesn't a screen come up to level match the sub to 75db? If not you should wan't to have the sub around 75db or (72db with a digital Radio Shack meter) while using the built in avr test tones. That is pretty standard, I know what Kris said & I know that Audyssey is his baby, but in theory, this is the proper way of "level" matching. It helps to keep from, well whats happening with you, from happening. Plus it it balances out the signal sent from the avr, then to the amp, then to the sub. Think of it like this: You are sending 10% of the signal of what you receiver can produce before it starts clipping & distorting, so now that you are sending a low signal the amp just has to work that much harder to amplify the signal to produce the desired db your trying to reach. It might be running at 90% of it's threshold. What you are trying to do is find a happy median. Having one set low & one set high, just says that there is an unbalanced signal being processed. It could be fine & not clipping. There is no way anyone on here can tell you that you are overdriving, but what we are saying is that the majority of the people are running in the -3 to +3 range.

I do not know where you are getting your information but this is completely not true. It does not matter where the avr is on the sub output. It can be way down and plate amplifiers have no problem taking that signal. All it is is a less tha1vdc signal up to 7vdc maxed out on higher end avr's. Pro amps however, might have an issue but most of them do not. By the way....this is an UNBALANCED sinal.

People the are using the miniDSP on a BALANCED connection only get a max of 2V no matter where the avr is set. A lot of people say that the avr needs to be set at 0 +-3db. This make no difference at all other than changing the gain on the sub. That is gain and not volume. I hopoe this helps.
post #6557 of 7087
Thanks everyone for your responses, I will try re-running audyssey and play with the trim and gain levels and see if it sounds any different. If I'm not happy with how audyssey sets the sub, then I'll just bump it up to a max of 5 extra db from where audyssey sets it, since this seems to be the "safe" zone that is common.
post #6558 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdub1 View Post

Thanks everyone for your responses, I will try re-running audyssey and play with the trim and gain levels and see if it sounds any different. If I'm not happy with how audyssey sets the sub, then I'll just bump it up to a max of 5 extra db from where audyssey sets it, since this seems to be the "safe" zone that is common.

make sue you listen to a movie with heavy bass and not music. I tend to run my subs hot because I love bass and I love the feel of it as well.
post #6559 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

make sue you listen to a movie with heavy bass and not music. I tend to run my subs hot because I love bass and I love the feel of it as well.

ok will do, just out of curiosity, how many db "hot" do you run your sub/s from where audyssey sets them?
post #6560 of 7087
I only used audyssey for setting the distance of the speakers. Then I went and calibrated my system via spl meter. I am using a pro amp and a miniDSP so my setting are going to be way different than yours. I actually have my sub channel around +5db I think. The amp I have is an ep2000 and I think the gain on that is around 27??? I do not remember what I had the the avr and Outlaws set to when I was using those only. That was at my last house with an open floor plan so I am sure I was running them really hot in MO mode. I had two of them stacked in the corner. That was the only good placement.
post #6561 of 7087
Just know your limits......you will bottom out the sub before you will clip the amp or the avr no matter what setting you have it at.
post #6562 of 7087
Any use the Auralex Acoustics SubDude HD Subwoofer Isolation Platform ? I am considering buying these for the subs but........the problem is they are 15X15....The outlaw is 15x21....BUMMER. Would love to find a decent isolation platform that would work
post #6563 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbr100 View Post

Any use the Auralex Acoustics SubDude HD Subwoofer Isolation Platform ? I am considering buying these for the subs but........the problem is they are 15X15....The outlaw is 15x21....BUMMER. Would love to find a decent isolation platform that would work

I use an Auralex Gramma with my new EX. The EX fits perfectly. I previously used it with an eD A3-250. the SubDude is too small for most subs.
Edited by dharel - 1/15/13 at 12:51pm
post #6564 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbr100 View Post

Any use the Auralex Acoustics SubDude HD Subwoofer Isolation Platform ? I am considering buying these for the subs but........the problem is they are 15X15....The outlaw is 15x21....BUMMER. Would love to find a decent isolation platform that would work
This will do everything that the Sub Dud does (which isn't much) and you can cut it to size:
http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Joe-Anti-Fatigue-Beveled-3-Feet/dp/B000EFK9KM/ref=sr_1_12?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1358282258&sr=1-12&keywords=comfort+mats
post #6565 of 7087
I use the GRAMMA as well. Works great!
post #6566 of 7087
Thanks guys I have two on order. Will see if they work I guess
post #6567 of 7087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

This will do everything that the Sub Dud does (which isn't much) and you can cut it to size:
http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Joe-Anti-Fatigue-Beveled-3-Feet/dp/B000EFK9KM/ref=sr_1_12?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1358282258&sr=1-12&keywords=comfort+mats
It even has Deep Groove Bass Dispersion Guides (tm)
post #6568 of 7087
Well everyone, I am about to become a new member of the outlaw family. My Outlaw Lmf-1 plus just ship and I'm coming from an ED A3-250. My driver was blown, so I decided to upgrade lol. I have a pair of Revel F12 and the C12 center, so I hope they don't mind the company lol. I'm pretty excited to hear what is all the fuss about biggrin.gif
post #6569 of 7087
I'm over one month in, coming from a HTIB sub, and I already want another! It's awesome. I used the packing foam and cut 4 3/4" pieces, used some small paperback books to put on each and set the sub up about 1" off the ground. Better sound and feel for me.
post #6570 of 7087
I've got both my Outlaws on Auralex Grammas. A Plus and an EX. I felt like the difference was night and day, both with clarity and output. Could it be the placebo effect? Possibly, worth the relatively small investment? Yes. Absolutely. Would definitely like to compare actual physical measurements to see the truth though.

I would recommend anyone on the fence about an isolation platform to spend the 50 bucks and decide for themselves. I did and was happy with my decision.
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