Legacy Audio Speakers - Page 6

Glad to see they're still around and heading with the right direction with the ribbon tweeters. The Legacy Studio was the first high end speaker I've ever wanted ever since the Paradigm Mini Monitors opened my eyes to a world of better sound. Never got around owning one because of the price. Did own a Whisper CC once but wasn't impressed with the sound since I was running some lowest end Yamaha receiver (poor college student). Everytime I went to high end events I tried to spend some time in Legacy's room. A few decades later, a slew of owning most popular brands, I'm now focused on well measured speakers but those Studios... damn... still creeps out once in a while in my mind. Must be because of the professional studio acceptance...

Glad to see the pics are working now. They do look very nice. I am sure having three of the same speaker across the front stage really sounds good. Can't wait to hear more of your thoughts. I know you said you are working on treatments and maybe getting XT32 at some point. I am sure with those two items, it will really make them sing . Congrats again.

Thanks, I did try "Double Bass" with my Onkyo 809 receiver and my Signature IIs, along with an admittedly inexpensive Outlaw sub. For me, it was just too much, too boomy. Perhaps I just wasn't able to arrive at the best settings, or perhaps the sub is not very good.

I think part of the problem with "double bass" is that LFE output is sent not only to the sub, but also to the front L/R speakers.

I do tend to like to run the Sigs full range, because I find that, contrary to what one reads, I do find a lot of bass effects in movies to be directional, and I can hear them coming from the right or left speakers. I also have full range surrounds, and I like to run them full range as well.

Regarding Double Bass - If you have selected subwoofer "Yes" in the setup menu, then the LFE channel should only be going to the subs, not to the Front Mains, even if they are set to "Full Range"....

I would not say the bass I am getting is boomy - on the contrary, it is very tight and punchy with the new Signature SEs. Perhaps the overall bass level could be reduced for a flatter response, but I do not feel the bass is bloated or boomy at the moment.

Update - did some more listening tonight for this specific aspect, and found a better balance by using the tone control to pull the Front L/C/R bass down by -3 dB. Still plenty of bass depth, punch, and drive, but better balanced and cleaner sounding. I'm really happy with the sound I'm getting!

I have a pair of legacy Whispers and one LF Extreme as a sub. My processor puts out balanced output but the LF Extreme does not have the right input for it.
I'm not sure what to do.

A friend mentioned that I should be looking to use two subs in any case and I have to admit that I like leaner, punchier bass than the very low (more flabby?) sound of the LF Extreme.

Has anyone had good experiences with other subs that integrate well with the Whispers?

Moosik: You need an Female XLR to Female RCA adapter like this one by Hosa, model number GXF-132. I found it on Amazon for around $6.

As far as subwoofers go, the LF Xtreme is a very capable sub, with a sophisticated dynamic braking circuit built right into the driver. If you are getting a "flabby" sound out of it, you probably need to focus on improving its settings (phase, level, crossover), its positioning in the room, and/or improving your room acoustics with bass traps in the corners. Where is your crossover point set? Tell us more about the current settings, positioning, and room characteristics so we can help you better. Pictures would help.

Also, does your pre/pro have room correction software like Audyssey? I found Audyssey really cleans up and tightens bass response, especially from 300 Hz down. Adding room correction would be a very worthwhile upgrade. I can very much recommend the Onkyo PR-SC5508 (Stereophile Class A-rated), which has the latest version of Audyssey, Mult-EQ XT32. Its a very transparent and great sounding unit.

Do you have the ability to take any measurements of the sub's frequency response in the room? If not, and you have a computer, a simple measurement system like XTZ Room Analyzer II (about $200) can tell you a lot about what your system is doing in the room, pinpointing problem areas, and really help you tune the system to the room.

Don't blame the sub - you've already got very good equipment! Before throwing more money at the issue, invest some time and effort in the things I suggest above. I think you'll be very happy with the result. BTW, two subs do help to even out the room frequency response, but there's no reason you can't get great results with what you currently have. Feel free to post for more help, or PM me directly.

So what's the verdict Craig?


Max

I have been to Dennis' three times in the last three weeks to do some comparison listening with some pre/pro's (long off-topic story) and in the process of focusing on fine details in the music have come to the conclusion that the Signature SE's are very fine speakers. I had already come to prefer ribbon mids and highs, and these speakers only moved me further in that direction with very silky mids and highs. But along with being smooth, they are very finely detailed as well. And this is all without being overly analytical.

While we were focusing on the fine detail, it was obvious that they also have a great bottom end as well. Much of our listening was stereo and full range. I am not the 2-ch audiophile that some are, but I understand the benefits/advantages of "Pure Audio" with no processing, i.e. no bass management, and these speakers seemed to do quite well in that mode.

Jeff

Hmmm.... darned upgradeitis...


Max

Two weeks ago, I was in NYC at the Waldorf-Astoria, helping out Bill Dudleston and his lovely daughter, Victoria, at the Legacy Audio booth at the NY Audio Show. The crowds were great, and the show was well attended. I got to meet alot of people from all over the NorthEast that came to hear some great Legacy speakers.

One notable visitor was the legendary jazz drummer, Billy Drummond! Here is a picture of me and Billy:



Billy is a very cool guy, very down to earth, and we chatted about drums, music, and audio gear for probably a half hour or more. The next day, he jetted over to Spain to play a jazz concert over there. The guy gets around! Billy has a website which you can see here: Billy Drummond Website

The room was very large, and sounded pretty good for a hotel conference room. Legacy brought 3 sets of speakers. We had the Whisper XDs down on one end of the room, paired with some very nice solid state gear by a German company, AVM. The small monoblock amps on either end of the table were 400W Class D amps, and they sounded very good with the Whispers:



On the other end of the room was a pair of Focus SEs in Cherry, paired with some very nice sounding tube gear by Ayon:



And on the long wall in between, was a pair of Signature SEs in Black Pearl, paired with some inexpensive, but well-built tube gear by Chinese manufacturer Raysonic:



All three systems sounded really good for the show. Bill and I spent some time Friday afternoon tuning the Whisper's Wavelaunch DSP processor to the room, and got those speakers sounding pretty good. The DSP is very cool, and you can basically dial in the speakers to whatever room they are in. Multiple programs can be stored in the processor too, if you want to have one setting for movies and another setting for music, for example. (A very handy feature that comes with the Whispers).

I will say that uncrating and setting up 3 pairs of speakers ranging from 100 - 300 pounds each speaker is hard work!! Then to re-crate everything back up at the end of the show was a chore too! But, I'm glad I was able to spend the time with Bill and his family, listen to some great music, meet new people, and enjoy a weekend in NYC. I'm looking forward to doing more shows in the future!

Sounds like a good time at the show Dmark . I wonder if Legacy will ever go to the CEDIA show. I attend every year on business but they've never been there. It's not really a hifi show but many speaker manufacturers and other hifi companies have a presence there.

I wrote a little summary of my visit to Dennis's on my blog, I thought I'd transpose here where there is an interest in Legacy speakers. .


"The other day I had a chance to visit a friend and listen to his Legacy Signature SE floor standing speakers. I would not call this a review, but just sharing a bit of my experience. These particular speakers have some factory upgraded crossovers using Clarity capacitors. Having heard other Legacy speakers from the recent lines, I knew these would not disappoint. The top end driver configuration is similar to the Signature SE's big brother, The Focus SE (which a pair just happen to be in the same room) utilizing a pair of folded ribbon tweeters. A single 7" silver graphite driver for the midrange and the bottom end driven by a pair of sealed 10" drivers. These were setup as full range in a home theater configuration with 3 across the front and a pair of Legacy Phantom surrounds. A couple M&K subwoofers were also in the system, but they were turned down quite a bit. Simply level balanced with no EQ being used at all, these speakers sounded well balanced. I attribute this to the way these speakers are "voiced" from the factory. Bill Dudleston, President of Legacy, puts a lot of effort in tuning the speakers for typical room environments, so natively out of the box they can already sound good. Some minimal use of EQ should dial in the frequency response to perfection. Of particular note is the smoothness of the vocal range. Just like their big brother, they convey an effortless reproduction of vocals. Legacy has made me a fan of ribbon tweeters, which is where I suspect some of this smoothness formula comes from. The high end was perhaps a touch hot but only noticeable on a couple of recordings we heard. The bass range was well defined and tight but didn't have the same depth as the Focus SE. Any home theater system will utilize a separate subwoofer, so deep bass is a non-issue here. We rolled through a variety of SACDs and Bluray discs during the late evening. It was a pleasure to listen to about anything. I'm sure on my next visit these will be further dialed in using an Audyssey EQ system. I can't wait for that! If anyone in the South Central Pennsylvania area would like to learn more about Legacy speakers, drop me an email and I can point you in the right direction."

I dropped by Dennis' place yesterday to do some further listening to his Signature SE speakers. I had heard them twice before, but each time we were focused on other things: measuring the response and setting up an ABX test. This time we just leisurely listened to the speakers.

To provide the final conclusion first... I *really* like these speakers! They are both aesthetically beautiful AND they make beautiful music. Dennis previously posted pic's of the speakers, but honestly, the pic's don't do the finish justice. It is really stunning. The metallic flake in the paint is actually much finer than it appears in Dennis' pic's. The finish looks like it's a half inch thick and like it's still wet. Dennis builds and finishes drum kits on the side. I've seen several of his finished kits. He sets a *very* high standard for finishes. That the Legacy Black Pearl finish is acceptable to Dennis speaks for how beautiful it really is.



While these speaker really "shine" visually, their primary claim to fame is their sound quality. The ribbon midrange and tweeter are truly artistic music reproducers. Jeff, (pepar) described them as "silky" and I totally agree. The tap of a cymbal, the transient of a plucked string, sound of brushes on a snare drum... these are all reproduced with incredible realism and clarity. These speakers easily resolve all the detail in a recording without adding any harshness or excessive brightness. The treble and upper midrange is where these speaker really "shine".

Edit: I previously owned a set of AV911 Strata Mini's, which used ribbon midrange and tweeter drivers. I *loved* those speakers for their upper mids and highs. The Legacy Sig SE's sound VERY MUCH like the Strata Mini's in the upper mid's and highs. The one downside of the Mini's was a very narrow sweet spot. It was so small that you couldn't turn your head, and you couldn't slouch. If you were in the sweet spot, they were glorious. Outside the sweet spot, even by an inch or two, the soundstage disappeared. The Sig's, retain the excellent sound and soundstage *without* the extremely small sweet spot.

Most of the midrange is covered by the 7" cone mid-woofer, (180 Hz to 2.8kHz.) Through this range, I would describe the sound as deadly accurate. This is the range where the human voice is most prominent. Male and female voices where reproduced with no hint of nasality or chestiness. I did hear some graininess to some voices, but when we turned Audyssey on, that completely disappeared. I think the graininess was something in the front end because it was completely removed with Audyssey.

One of the things I like best about these speakers is the prodigious bass they reproduce. The dual 10" drivers in sealed cabinets exhibit incredible LF extension. We measured them down to their specified 22 Hz -2 dB point, and they are the real deal. (Dennis has those measurements, and I will let him post them.)

We played around with different combinations with Dennis' dual M&K subwoofers. We tried "Double Bass", standard Bass Management with 80 Hz crossovers, Bass Management with the speakers set to Full Range, and just the speakers with the subwoofers off. My personal favorite for music was the speakers alone, without the the subs. This is the first system I've ever heard where I preferred the bass from the speakers to bass from dedicated subwoofers. (I think this says more about the SQ of the bass from these speakers vs. the bass from the outclassed M&K subs than it does about subs and Bass Management in general. If Dennis were to add a couple of high quality subs to this system, it would easily become a "world-class" system.)

A speaker needs to be completely integrated to reproduce the sound of a drum kit. Drums have deep bass fundamentals, percussive mid-bass and impactful midrange as well as dynamic and brilliant treble. Dennis is a drummer/percussionist and it is fun to watch him listen to music on these speakers. He plays the "air drums" while listening, kicking the bass drum and hitting the snares, toms and cymbals. I agree completely with his comment that these speakers reproduce drums as very realistically. That is probably the biggest compliment Dennis can give a speaker system.

To be fair, I was somewhat disappointed in the Phantom surrounds in Dennis' system. I don't mean to imply that there is anything wrong with the Phantom surrounds, but in Dennis' system, they are mounted in such a way that he's not able to take advantage of the dispersion of the tweeter. The Phantom surrounds have a "front" mounted tweeter. As such, they need to be mounted at 90 degrees to the LP to be in the dispersion pattern of the tweeter:



In Dennis' system, they are mounted behind and above the LP. On several occasions I got up and walked back to the more ideal spot for the surrounds. The front soundstage suffered, but the directionality and immersiveness of the surround-field improved exponentially. We ended up raising the surround trims by 2 dB and that helped some. Nonetheless, I think the Phantom surrounds are pretty sensitive to placement. If they can be placed ideally, they would be absolutely excellent surround speakers. If their placement is compromised... maybe not so much. I suggested to Dennis that he try to configure some wedges that would aim the Phantom's more forward toward the LP. He is, I think, considering that option. He's a pretty "handy" guy, so I'm sure he could do it.

Bottom line, the Legacy Signature SE's are excellent speakers. They have all the qualities I would look for in a full range speaker: excellent high frequency detail without harshness; accurate midrange without "coloration", and prodigious, clean, tight bass response. They would work very well as the mains in an HT system and they would be superb as the L/R's in a stereo pair. In the later system, if the room cooperates, they could easily be used without subwoofers for music reproduction.

Craig

Great review Craig, I really respect your opinion and your help! For those reading this thread, Craig's 9.3 channel Triad Platinum LCR / Seaton Submersive system is definately World-Class, and a major inspiration for me, so his comments mean a lot.

Anyway, here are the measurements we took a few weeks ago. It was our first attempt at dialing in the new Signatures in my room. I still have some more acoustical work to do to get them dialed in perfectly, but they are already sounding really good, and the measurements aren't too bad.

The first chart ("Baseline Pre-Aud[1]") is the Signatures running full-range with no Audyssey XT Room Correction. (The chart shows from 16Hz-300Hz). You can definately see that I am getting strong output in-room down to 20 Hz.



The second chart ("Post Aud[1]") shows two measurements, both after running a full 8-point Audyssey Mult EQ XT calibration. The blue line is the corrected Signature SEs by themselves (fullrange), and the pink line is the corrected Signature SEs (fullrange), plus my two 12" M&K subs also playing, crossed over at 80 Hz in Onkyo's "Double Bass" mode. We found after trying numerous crossover points that running Double Bass seemed to give us the flattest response for now. Although both Craig and I agree that the Signatures do a great job with the bass on their own, and the bass was actually better detailed and clearer without the subwoofers!



Audyssey XT was able to correct the Signature's response below 300 Hz to within a +/-2.5 dB range or so. Adding the subs smoothed things out more in the 60-160 Hz range, and also gave the response a bit of a "room curve" boost in the 25-60 Hz range of about 5 dB or so, which is kinda fun, but slightly "over-ripe".

Looking at the RTA, the first chart ("Post Aud RTA Mains") shows the RTA of just the Signatures after Audyssey XT correction. You can see the response is within a +/-5dB range up to 10 kHz, above which it rolls off very rapidly, as the Audyssey target curve does. (I don't like that, I think its too aggressive, and not needed for quality speakers like the Sigs).



I am planning on upgrading my prepro from an Onkyo 885 to an Onkyo 5508 soon, which has the upgraded Audyssey Mult EQ XT32, which does a much better job in the mids and treble. Also, I will probably run Audyssey again with the Signature SE tweeter trim switches down, so I can flip them back up to flat after Audyssey does its calibration. That way, I can get back some of the HF energy above 10 kHz that Audyssey rolls off. (BTW, the tweeter switch on the Signature SEs is a 2 dB "shelf" cut above 10 kHz).

The second RTA chart ("Post Aud RTA Mains + Subs") shows the response with the subs after Audyssey calibration. You can definately see the effects of the subs, giving the RTA a room curve bump from about 100 Hz down. Its maybe a little full in the bass, but its fun for now. Once I build some more room treatments and get the new prepro in, I will work a little harder to flatten the curve a bit.



For now, I am thrilled with how everything is sounding at this early stage. Craig did point out some areas for improvement above, which I will be working on along with room treatments, but I will say that the Legacy Signature SEs certainly gives one a fantastic starting point on which to build a World-Class system!

I'll be posting more as I go along. Comments welcome, as usual!

^^^^^
Nice review of the Signature SE's. I haven't heard them, but own the Focus SE and Marquis HD, and agree with your description of the driver characteristics.

A few of my observations....The soundstaging of the Focus SE (and I would expect similar with the Signature SE) is best with at least 9 feet between the speakers and a fairly strong toe-in. This is obviously room dependent, but has been a constant in four different rooms of different shapes and sizes where I have set them up. I have found the bass (<130 Hz or so) challenging to integrate seamlessly into all of these rooms. In the end, what has worked best is plugging the ports and using a digital processor for the dual 12" woofers in a bi-amp configuration. Additionally, I have found that even the Focus SE's benefit from a good subwoofer (or pair). I have dual SVS PB13 Ultra's and find the system sounds best crossed over to the subs at 40Hz.

For surrounds, I use Mackie HR824mk2 monitors. I don't think it is very important to stick with the same brand for surrounds like for front three. One thing the Mackies do great is provide a wide dispersion coherent sound field. This allows them to completely disappear and makes it difficult to localize the sound....exactly what you want a surround speaker to do.

Matt

Edited by mjbuoni - 6/14/12 at 10:23am

Craig and Dennis, thanks for the reviews and observations.

I'm personally finding it a little difficult to integrate the Focus SEs in my room right now. When I get back in town, I'll try several different things, but thus far, although I can hear the potential of these speakers and the drivers (I do really like the sound of those Heil AMTs and the Rohacell mids), placing them where my previous speakers were did not produce a flat FR.

Even after XT32, I could hear that the FR was off, and the look on my face probably wasn't too good when I measured the speakers and saw their before and after XT32 graphs. Even XT32 couldn't flatten the FR.

I'll try Matt's placement ideas and a few other things and see how it goes. I do love the bass the Focus SEs are capable of and their efficiency. XT32 trims really are 6db lower than with my 89db/w/m speakers. When I realized that Legacy Audio's sensitivity ratings are 'room sensitivity', I worried that I might discover that they weren't really much more sensitive than my 89db speakers, but the 95.4db rated Focus SEs have trims set at -9.5db vs -3.5db, and of course, with a 4 ohm load, the XPA-1's can put out 1000 watts vs the 500 with my 8 ohm speakers.

Can't wait to get back home to play around with the setup some more.


Max

I dropped by Dennis' a few days ago to hear his Legacy speakers. It's probably the 4th or 5th time. When he played music, all I heard was the music. When he put in a movie, all I saw and heard was the movie. I guess I'll never "hear" the Legacy speakers.

BTW, music sounds fabulous .. lots of layering and texturing on complex instruments and mixes. Stunning bottom as well. Switching to 5.1 content (with bass management), the (very old) M&K subs reinforce, but do not extend the bottom end.

Jeff

Good stuff Dennis. They look really nice. I have no doubt that they sound very nice as well. With three matching speakers for a front stage, I am sure that action on the screen is really reproduced well. I wanted to go to the NY show but I found about to late. I went to the older ones they used to have though. Hopefully I can make it next year. But again. enjoy those speakers Dennis.

Pretty odd, I wonder if there's something to the driver break-in thing? Just tried remeasuring the Focus SE's (without moving them) after more hours of music + movies and they measure differently now. Much flatter (and I don't smell the drivers while the speakers are playing anymore LOL).

Tried a few placement tweaks and got some further improvements. Very nice! Next thing on the list to try is what someone else mentioned about running Audyssey XT32 with the Treble dip switches in the down position thus allowing a +2db boost to the 10kHz+ region by flipping the switches up if desired. Unfortunately, AFAIK, the Onkyo 5008 doesn't have a separate Movie (default Audyssey curve with the 10kHz - 20KHz rolloff) and Music (flat) curve, so this would be one way to restore a little more HF to the EQ'd FR to see if it's preferable for music.


Max

Hi Max. Its definately possible that further break in could change the measurements as the woofers loosen up. A speaker is a very mechanical device after all, so it makes sense (to me at least).

Yes, I mentioned the tweeter switch trick earlier. It works great with Audyssey. Just flip the tweeter cut switch to the down position (-2 dB cut above 10 kHz engaged), run Audyssey, then flip the switch back up to the "flat" position. You'll get back about 2 dB of hi frequency energy above 10 kHz, which is usually just enough to bring back detail without harshness. A neat trick!

When you get a chance, please post your final in-room measurements!

I can't seem to find any details concerning the Wavelaunch Processor, mainly it's dimensions ( W x H x D). Can anyone provide the info?? Thanks..

Here's a link to the OEM xilica manual.

The specs tab shows it's designed as a 1U box suitable for mounting in an EIA-310D compliant rack - Dimensions: 19”x1.75”x9” (483x44x229mm).

The width is the width of the front panel, including mounting ears. The ears don't appear to be removable. The case itself would be no wider than 17.76".

As a follow up to a question I already posted, my processor has a single balanced output for bass. The LF Extreme has 3 unbalanced inputs labelled left, right, and LFE.

It was suggested that I attach a plug that converts the channel from balanced to unbalanced. But where should this single channel be plugged into the LF extreme?

Thank You Very Much russ_ 777...

Moosik, did you check your private messages? I answered that for you there.

Use the LFE input on the LF Xtreme sub.

The LFE input bypasses the sub's internal crossover and level control, allowing your pre/pro to control the crossover and level. When you use the LFE input, the level knob on the sub acts as a sensitivity control, letting your preamp set the real level. Just set the sub level knob at its middle position (50%).

You can look at the manual for more information on connections: http://www.legacyaudio.com/images/up..._XD_Manual.pdf

Hope that helps!

Dennis

I just saw that the Legacy Signature SEs were awarded a PERFECT 5 STAR score from AV MAX magazine. (click the link to download the article)

The review compared the Signature SEs to 19 different speakers from Bowers & Wilkens, Totem Acoustic, Paradigm, Definitive Technology, DALI, ELAC, Monitor Audio, and others. I don't think I've ever seen a perfect 5 star rating awarded to ANY speaker in ANY magazine before!!! Congratulations to Legacy Audio!

Something I'd find of particular interest is how those speakers, which list for around 6K/pair (?) would compare to either Salk Soundscape 8's (8K/pair) or the V3's (4,300/pair) in a shootout. For better or worse, Salk does come across as the golden child on these boards and it would be interesting to see it come head to head against different competition.

I just finished watching Tron Legacy with my Legacy Point One it was phenomenal.

It takes everything thrown at it...too bad its not as popular on AVS as some of the others in the same price point.

Much as I'm enjoying the Focus SE's, the AV Max review doesn't really say too much for me. They rated the Goldenear Triton Two a full five stars too and claimed it "Truly a flawless example of hi-end audio". As impressed as I am by the writing of the reviewers in an Indian AV magazine, they tend to be a little prone to hyperbole. I auditioned the Triton Two's a few times while looking around and I certainly wouldn't call them 'flawless'. They were decent speakers for the price then, but there were still better offerings available in the same price range.

As I said though, I AM enjoying the Focus SE's and the Sig SE's look like the Focus SE's little brother. They appear to be pretty much identical aside from the smaller woofers and having only one midrange vs the Focus SE's 2. Pity though that aside from Anthony Cordesman's review of the Focus SE in Absolute Sound, there haven't been too many informative reviews about the newer Legacy Audio speakers.

I don't give too much credit to Doug Schroeder's reviews in Dagogo either seeing how he displays an obvious bias. In the Salk Soundscape review he mentions that he dislikes speakers that have non-removable grills in front of the drivers quoted here: but never mentions a thing about the grills over the tweeters in his reviews of Legacy speakers.

What I WOULD love to see is a review by something like Stereophile accompanied by measurements by John Atkinson. Haven't seen a Legacy Audio review by them since the Focus 20/20 8(!) years ago.


Max

Yes, Stereophile does not seem to give Legacy any love. Whenever they report from a show about Legacy, it's always like "Oh BTW, Legacy Audio was there in the room too". For a long time, it seems that most of Stereophile's love goes to companies that buy lots of advertising in their magazine. Legacy has started stepping up their advertising in Stereophile recently, so maybe the editors/writers will finally take notice and do some reviews. However, after meeting and getting to know Bill D. a bit better, he is much more interested in what his customers think than what magazines say. Of course, good press is always beneficial, but I know he is not chasing any reviewers down just to get reviews into magazines.

It is interesting how fast the high end market is growing overseas in places like India, China, Russia, etc. There seems to be a genuine interest in high end audio over there, and the market is growing faster over there than it is in the USA.

Chu Gai - I agree there seem to be a lot of very vocal Salk fan-boys on AVS. I would be curious to see a Legacy vs. Salk shoot-out too.