Legacy Audio Speakers - Page 7

Hey DMark1, I am new to the board. I am getting a house built and I will be building a theather room. I was actually leanng towards Klipsch or maybe Bower Wilkins, but I have been doing some research on Legacy, and now I am leaning towards them now. I really like the Sig SEs, but they maybe a little bit out of my price range so I am intrigued about the Classic HDs. Where can I buy them if I want to get a pair? Also what would be a good receiver to get for them. I am looking at getting an Emotiva XPA-5, but I would also like to get a good receiver as well. Thanks again for your help.

Hi P007, welcome to AVS and the Legacy thread! Building a purpose-built home theater (let along a whole house) is probably a dream for most of us here, good luck with that! I will help you out any way I can, just ask!

As far as where to get Classic HDs, I can help you with that. I will contact you by PM...

I recently decided to sell my standmount monitor speakers to move into a pair of floor stands.

I am only familiar with Legacy products through very positive reviews and testimonials. Based on these, I am potentially interested in the Classic HD's or the Signature SE's (black pearl).

Since I have not had the opportunity to heart them, I do have a few questions:

1. I am heading to the TAVES audio show in Toronto in September for the specific reason of a speaker search. Does anyone know if Legacy will be there?

2. My front end consists of a Simaudio i7, Simaudio Supernova CD player, Wadia 170i dock and a Bryston BDA1 DAC. Does anyone have any knowledge of how well the Legacy speakers pair with Simaudio gear?

3. My room is approximately 11'W x 33'L x 8' ceilings. My system faces the long direction and I sit roughly 10 to 12 ft from the front wall. Both speakers I mention above seem to be rather imposing speakers and may be too much speaker for the size of my room. What are your thoughts?

I am located the maritime eastern provinces of Canada, so a long distance from the sole dealer in Canada so I can't easily go audition a pair.

I listen to a mixture of rock, pop, folk, new age. Rarely any country or classical.

Your responses and any other comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Hi Bluemark, looks like you have a very nice system in the pictures! Looks like Paradigm speakers...?

Either the Signature SEs and Classic HDs would be just fine in your 11' x 33' x 8' room. Its plenty big enough for these two models. I would just recommend that you don't push them up against a wall, but give them some room around them to "breathe". Both models sound excellent, are voiced similarly, and are well balanced. The main differences are that you will get bigger imaging and deeper bass extension with the Signature SEs vs. the Classics. The Black Pearl finish is gorgeous, and the pictures don't do it justice.

Your choice of music will work well on Legacy speakers. I listen to just about all types of music and movies on my Signatures and they seem to excel at whatever I throw at them. They are extremely musical and highly dynamic. The ribbons are very sensitive and transparent, so you do hear a lot of detail. The mids are open and very neutral, and the bass is fast, full when required, and tight. I get extension down to 20 Hz in my room with the Signatures. With a powered sub in your system handling deep bass duties below 40 Hz or so, your Simaudio i7 should be fine. (its a very nice integrated amp, 150W @ 8 ohms, 250W @ 4 ohms). Both Legacy models are very efficient, rated at over 92 dB and are nominal 4 ohm speakers.

Unfortunately, Legacy Audio is not planning on attending the Toronto TAVES show this year.

However, if you are serious about getting a set of Legacy speakers, I would recommend taking advantage of their 30-day in-home audition program. That's really the best possible way to know if a new speaker is right for you. If you are not satisfied, you can return them for a full refund, minus the return shipping cost. PM me if you are interested, and I can provide you with more details.

Thanks for the info and yes, my HT system does consist of the Paradigm Signature S6 v2 for mains, C3 center and S2's for rears and surrounds. When you say, don't push them up against a wall, how far do you recommend them be placed from the wall. I understand it will likely require a bit of experimentation, but I'm just thinking in general terms.

It's too bad Legacy will not be at TAVES. I was hoping to hear a pair there as Legacy was on my list of speakers to hopefully audition there.

Thanks again for the info.

From the Signature SE manual:

Regarding fine tuning of bass and treble via the rear-mounted switches:

New to the Legacy brand and thread, so hello all. I got the opportunity today, to spend a couple of hours with a gracious host of an audio shop owner locally, listening to Legacy offerings. I had gone inot the experience with the notion that these "baby of the bunch" classic hds were not going to impress, but that I would need to push the focus se to really be impressed. Well, color me an idiot. The classics impressed me so much that i think I am buying a pair for two channel listening. To say I was surprised at the "controlled attack" form these would be an understatement. The classics were only seeing less than 100watts of rotel power and they hammered! I have been looking for so long for a two channel speaker that was "audiophile grade" and offered the dynamics and attack of pro audio. These are it! I had a huge smile on my face while listening to them this morning.

The perhaps most surprising thing happened when I listened to the focus se though. I liked the classic better:confused:

I spoke at legnth with the shop owner about this and the theory we came up with goes something like this...The classic has a touch more in mid-range/upper mid bass presence naturaly, due to not extending as low as the focus. Maybe that is jsut a characteristic that I enjoy??? Anyone have any thoughts?? The dilema that is now, is the decision between the classic and the signature se (which I did not listen to today) I am wondering if it will offer the best of both worlds, but am hesitant to pony up $2k more if the experience is like my interpretation between the calssic and focus.

No thoughts??? I am also interested in what you guys are seeing success with as far as amplificationa nd processing on the Legacy brand. I am going to use for mainly home theater and some two channel 80/20%. I want big sound, but to maintain that finese that I heard at the shop. Appreciate any thoughts you may have:)

My thoughts? Home Theater, music or television, build your system around one type of sound mix and let the other pieces fall where they may. In my opinion, disappointment comes about by expecting all three formats to perform the same.

Our system is based on Home Theater. Television viewing is enhanced by this setup. Any music listening is based on cable provided music content. Any high quality music listening is done with a dedicated computer sound system based on separates and high-end headphones. My philosophy revolves around the principal of: "Great expectations, major disappointments.



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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/8/12 at 10:14am

I will base it on home theater then....I know that the Legacys perform great for music, so when I play a disc, it will be acceptable. My major concern is HT. 80% movies at least. TV is TV, on daily programming, as you said, it will improve it.

I have auditioned the Leagcys and think they sound fantastic, but only got to audition in a 2 channel setup with limited power. I would love to hear thoughts from folks about HT. I have read the entire thread and it seems like they kick a$$ there too, just curious what type of power and electronics folks are using. Thanks

Haven't heard the Classics, but the Focus SEs have been great for music AND HT for me. The musical ability of the speakers are a vital requirement for me as I have quite a few concerts and musicals on BD. I also require my HT setup to be capable of playing flat to THX Reference levels of 105db peaks per channel.

Unlike some folks who have separate systems for 2-channel music with emphasis on finesse and clarity, and another system for HT with the emphasis on dynamics, I require both from my HT setup.

I can say that the Focus SEs deliver on both counts. They are, of course, great at music reproduction, with quite a flat FR in-room even prior to EQ (with the exception of a huge hump around the 40Hz region in my room (testament to the huge bass capabilities of the Focus SEs). After Audyssey XT32 calibration, the REW measured FR is even smoother and the bass peak is tamed.

The 94.5db/w/m sensitivity definitely helps for THX Reference level dynamics for HT. I tested my previous speakers (Boston Acoustics E100's) to see if they could play flat to THX Reference without distortion at my MLP ~10 feet away and they were capable of it with their 89db/w/m. The Audyssey calibration for the SEs resulted in ~5-6 db lower trims. I was actually curious about this as I only realized AFTER getting the Focus SEs that their sensitivity on the website is rated 'in-room', where many manufacturers rate their sensitivity anechoic. I was a little afraid that expected cabin gain might skew the ratings optimistically the way some other manufacturers (*cough* Goldenear *cough*) do, but the calibrated Focus SEs produced the 5-6db differences in trims that would be expected between my previous 89db/w/m speakers and these 94.5db/w/m. The Focus SEs managed THX Reference levels with ease.

BTW, my audio setup for HT is an Oppo 93 to Onkyo 5008 to the 3 Emotiva XPA-1s powering my front end (1000 watts into 4 ohms for the SEs and 500 watts into 8 ohms for the E100 center that I'm still using). I'm using my previous LR E100s as my surrounds with an Emotiva XPA-2 as I discovered a little while back, that I can apparently localize bass below 80Hz and notice the difference in some movies with significant bass/LFE pans in the surrounds (arising from a stereo bass discussion). As such, I prefer using speakers capable of playing flat with a 40Hz crossover for surrounds.



Max

Thanks DJ!! You sound like your expectations and application of a system are much like my own. I am interested in what other amps or processors you may have used in the past with the Legacy.(or anyone else for that matter) I am fighting myself of purchasing something like the Integra dhc80.3 or going way up to ADA, Classe, maybe Anthem or even Denon AVP. Anyone have thoughts on how different electornics have reacted with Legacy in their own experience?? Bill D seems to like the idea of ICE amps..If I purchase something like the Anthem, Denon or Integra, i will use Audessy/ARC. If I purchase Classe, ADA or the like, I will expect the shop to help with setup, so hopefully it will not sacrafice much. To my understanding, I can also use Pandora, etc. by running through player or display with networking capabilities.

My dilema with the processor comes from info given to me by my local shop owner. He stated that the DACs, and some other key areas in the processors like Denon are not as high quality as some of the high end pieces. I have seen reviews where the sound quality and processing ability of the Denon and Integra have been compared to anything high end out there. Then there are others who say they get stomped. ADA particularly interests me due to the rave reviews(never seen a bad one) and the price in comparisson with Classe, AVP or the Anthem D2V. Sorry for the rant guys, I have been forced to re-start my adventure into the world of high end audio and am very excited about learning and getting some new gear:)

I can't say I've delved too much into the world of esoteric electronics, eg. all the numerous DAC options etc. I've used Denon and Onkyo AVRs and Rotel and Emotiva amps (as well as trying some Class-D pro amps). The pro amps that I tried didn't sound as clean as the others and had a more pronounced tweeter hum. Aside from that, I don't really think different solid state amps produce that much difference in the audio signature especially compared to speaker choices and room correction. I'm definitely happy with the sound I'm getting with the combo I'm using. Very neutral, and the sound floor of the setup is amazingly low. The very slight tweeter hiss is only audible up against the tweeters.

Tube amps of course, are a whole different ball game as they can be built to produce all kinds of sonic signatures, but Legacy Audio does recommend using amps with decent damping factors to get the best out of the woofers, and higher damping factors are a lot more common in solid state amps.


Max

Thanks for the info Max. What is considered a deiscernable difference in damping factor?? I am looking everywhere at different amp and processor choices, and the Mcintosh MX121 and MX150 have come up too. My local Legacy dealer has Classe, Rotel, Anthem....and another has McIntosh, so I can't even listen at the shop for differences. I may have to take the speakers home and then audition different electronics with them. I am trying to be carefull, because when I heard the Legacy Classics wtih the low power Rotel amp, they sounded FANTASTIC!! The may have had a slighlty warmer than neutral sound, possible bumb in the upper mid bass/lower midrange area that appealed to me very much. I don't want to chose the wrong electronics and lose that. The hardest part is that most of the real "high end" processors don't have much for room correction(Classe, ADA unless you spend 12k additional, MCintosh), but many say the sound waulity is much better. My room is probably less than ideal, so RC may be a must have.

The room is 20x26 with 12ft ceilings. The odd part, with reagrd to a surround setup is that the long wall is my front stage, so the room acts wider than it is long from front to back. I do have the option to change it around, but then my display would block a big double window.

For the Focus SEs, Legacy recommends a damping factor of 40<. While there are tube amps that have that, there are a lot of them that are far lower, whilst most solid state amps have damping factors higher than that (many in the 100+ range).

Yes, you'll have to listen to and audition different electronics yourself to determine if the difference is both discernible and worth the potentially substantial price differences to you. As far as room setup goes, it depends on the room and the way it's set up, but it's certainly possible to get good results with a layout like yours. In fact, that's how I have mine set up; on the long wall. Depending on how you have it set up, it can serve to minimize early first reflections from the sides, reducing the need for room treatments at the first reflection points. The downside can be proximity to the rear wall which can potentially muddy the sound due to early reflections there, but if you have more than 6 feet to the rear wall, you can use diffusers there instead of absorption.



Max

I actually got to spend some more time with the Legacy Focus today, and the local shop owner was nice enough to offer to come out to my home(which is still being finished) and help me with potential setup so taht I may wire for the locations before drywall goes up in the next couple of weeks.

I have concluded that my intitial impressions were incorrect....I love the Focus, and while the classic were good, the Focus stomp them. I got to switch back and forth between Rotel(class d and non) and Hegel amps, and much to my surprise, I heard no discernable difference. I was trying to listen for one and just couldn't hear it. What I did hear was a big difference in the processors(a rotel rsp and classe ssp800) The Classe, to me, sound so much cleaner and gave a more open, larger sound stage.

Sorry I missed these posts for some reason...

Max, I'm curious what crossover frequency you are using with your Focus SEs?

Chop, Im glad you had a chance to reevaluate the Focus SEs. I agree that they outperform the Classics, (as they should). As good as the Classics are for their price, the Focus SEs just have more of everything.

I use an EAD PowerMaster 5300 amp with an Onkyo PRSC 5508 pre pro with Audyssey, and I am getting great sound with music and movies. My source is the Oppo 83SE. It's possible that you might hear a little more refinement from exotic pre pros like the Classe, ADA, or the top Anthems, but the laws of diminishing returns kicks in hard after the Onkyo or Integra pre pros. You won't fine the exotic gear to sound 4 times better to match a 4 times larger price tag. The good news is that the Legacies are transparent enough that you will hear the difference, if there is any.

For my money, I think Audyssey XT32 is excellent and indispensable if you are using the system for movies and multichannel music. It makes a tremendous improvement in my room with my Signature SEs and Phantom HDs. I'm sure ADAs Trinnov system and Anthems ARC system work well too, but again, definitely not 4 times better at 4 times the cost. However, if money is not a concern, then go for it.

Don't forget, the Onkyo PRSC 5508 / Integra 80.3 got Stereophile Class A ratings after being reviewed by Kal Rubinson. Kal really "gets" multichannel music and room correction, and has heard many of the unit you're looking at. I think he'd probably tell you much the same things. He's an AVS member if you want to PM him.
Edited by DMark1 - 8/13/12 at 8:06am

Thanks Dmark...I have been interested in the Integra as well. The Legacy dealer that I have been dealing with has told me to spend the $$ on the processing and chose high quality, but reasonably priced amps with them. I tried hearing the difference between three different amps today(all with the same processor) and couldn't tell them apart if you paid me. When switching from the Rotel rsp and the Classe ssp800, I could hear some difference, but again, not sure how much. I have also been checking out reviews of super high power amps like the sunfire tga and earthquak cineova. The complete Rotel pre/pro amp setup could certainly save some coin, but I want to be sure I am maximizing the potential. The Integra 80.3 with lots of power attached sounds like it could be a winner. I am confused all over again agter the ordeal I had with my would have been speaker setup.

First, the Earthquake Cinenova amp is a great amp. You'd have a lot of headroom with that amp. My buddy has that amp with his Triad Platinums, and it just never seems to run out of power or control.

I think Kal likes the Classe SSP800 a lot, but I know he likes the Onkyo\Integra pre pros too. It would be awesome to compare those two head to head with a set of Focus SEs and a great amp like the Cinenova...

I agree that pre pros can make more of a difference than amps, but it comes down to cost and features. The tech is changing so fast, that it makes more sense to me to get a pre pro like the class A Rated Onkyo 5508 for $1, 600 and be able to upgrade every 2 or 3 years than to spend $8, 000 on an SSP800 and have it possibly be obsolete in 3 to 5 years, and not have a whole lot of resale value. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with the 32 bit burr brown DACs in the current Onkyos and Integras.

That's just how I look at it. I don't think you would be disappointed with an Onkyo or Integra

Dennis, I'm running the Focus SEs with a 40Hz crossover with Seaton Submersive HPs. A little while back, a discussion cropped up about stereo/multichannel bass, where a couple of studies were linked that indicate that many people can actually hear a difference/localize bass below 80Hz. It seems the common threshold in the studies below which no one could localize bass was more like 45Hz than the commonly cited 80Hz.

Out of curiosity, I tried switching between an 80Hz crossover and my normal 40Hz crossover (I've been using full range speakers that play flat into the 20's or 30's all around for some time). I realized that I could hear the differences in spaciousness with stereo bass and even more acutely, the difference in localization of the bass sources between an 80Hz and 40Hz crossover. In some of the material I used in testing, with the 80Hz XO, I could distinctly hear that some frequencies were panning across my mains and satellites vs some frequencies that did NOT pan and came only from the right side where I had placed my single (at the time) Submersive HP. The scene that this was evident in was the pod race from Star Wars 1.

With my regular 40Hz crossovers all around, I no longer heard this disparity of some frequencies panning across vs other (lower) frequencies that were no longer panning and only coming from the side of the room where the sub was with the 80Hz XO. Prior to this, I had experimented with an 80Hz XO vs my usual 40Hz, but always switched back without really knowing why. I just preferred it. AFTER trying this though, I realized I could locate hidden/discretely located subs in nightclubs the same way. Now I'm stuck using big speakers for surrounds (I was considering moving to smaller surrounds just prior to the whole episode). Seems that the guys who mix film audio tend to use full range speakers in the mixing studios and there's quite a lot of full range audio in the mains and satellites. In fact, an analysis of the channels with Speclabs actually showed MORE high SPL low frequencies in the main channels than in the LFE channel in some movies (you can see this in the 'best movies for bass' thread, or whatever it's called).

chopshop1, you might consider trying the Emotiva amps. The XPA-1 especially, is an incredible deal for amps. A fully differential design monoblock with 500 watts into 8ohms and 1000watts into 4ohms. If you go by common speaker-amp power recommendations, that actually matches the Focus SEs perfectly (500 watt power handling at 4 ohms, +3db of headroom capability which requires a doubling of the wattage). They really do sound great, and if you read the hometheaterhifi review, they actually measure better than amps costing 6X the price. $999 each at regular prices, $899 on sale.


Max
Edited by djbluemax1 - 8/9/12 at 9:42pm

Thanks for the replys guys...the only issue/concern I still have is the ribbon in the surrounds. I notice a significant difference when my ears are at different heights form the speakers, obviously due to the ribbon. My surrounds would not have the option to be mounted at ear height, and I read the one poster who said that with less than ideal mounting, the Legacy surrounds weren't as impressive.

Max: That's good to hear that 40 Hz works well with the Focus SEs and the Seaton Submersives. I am also looking at getting a pair of SubMersives soon to go with my Signature SEs.

When you say you can detect <80 Hz bass panning around the room, that's interesting. I've found that it tends to be the higher harmonics or other components of bass sounds that clue my ears into what direction it is coming from. For instance, even with a bassy kick drum, there is a higher frequency attack sound - a "click"-like sound that is a component of the overall drum sound, and that tells you where it is located more than the bass produced below 80 Hz. Did you use a pure sine wave test tone at 80 Hz or below during your tests? If you used movie clips, my guess is that other higher frequency sounds associated with the bass were giving you ears directional cues. Maybe you could try the same test with your main amp shut off and just the Subs playing?

I would second the Emotiva recommendation too. If you dont have room for 5 or 7 channels of XPA-1 monoblock amplification, the new 400 WPC, Emotiva XPR-5 multichannel amp looks like it could be a nice option ($1,999 retail):



Chop, what surrounds are you talking about?

I said earlier that the the Phantom HDs work great when they are mounted 90 degrees to the side - less well if they are mounted further back, like at 110-120 degrees... maybe that's what you were remembering. I did not say anything about mounting height.

Phantom HDs should be mounted like normal surrounds - above seated ear height. Like around 6' - 7' high. Just be sure to place side surrounds at 90 degrees, directly to the sides of the listening position for optimal audio performance. The Phantom baffle is angled toward your ears when mounted this way, so you should have no trouble with the spiral ribbon tweeter when the speaker is mounted correctly. Audyssey XT32 room correction will also help to match the surround response to the front channels too - You'll end up with a very seamless and enveloping presentation with this set up...

What it feels like I'm detecting is the origin of the pressure wave.

I'll try to describe what I mean.

When I used the 40Hz XO with the Star Wars pod race scene, with my eyes closed, as the pods zoomed/rumbled by, the sound would pan through the speakers and there was a very realistic sensation of a large object going by. It's like standing by the road as a semi goes by. The low rumble zooming past produces audible and tactile cues that tell me something big just passed by.

With the 80Hz XO, I could now detect that the higher frequencies were still panning, but the low frequency rumble/pressure wave was coming from the right side of the room where the sub was.

I then turned the sub so I could see the amp's signal light on the Submersive and confirmed that the signal light would come on at the exact points I had detected the single direction low frequencies with the 80Hz XO. When I switched back to the 40Hz XO, I could once again feel the sounds pan across my speakers without the sensation that some sounds were panning while part of the sound stayed still and came only from one spot.

Interestingly, I noticed that when the signal light on the Submersive's amp came on with the 40Hz XO, I could not pinpoint these lower frequency sounds. When the SubM reproduces frequencies 40Hz and lower, it just feels like it pressurizes the room and is all around me (as opposed to low frequencies that don't trigger the SubM's signal light at the 40Hz XO). With the 80Hz XO though, I can localize some of the frequencies as coming from the sub, but those scenes that I noted as having 40Hz and lower content, I could localize some of the lower frequencies but not the lowest part which seemed to be all around me.

When I did the test, I used music along with the Star Wars scene. I put the scene on repeat as I toggled through the settings. I must have listened to that scene well over 30 times.

No, I never tried using just 80Hz and 40Hz test tones. I wanted to see what results real world content produced.

As I said, after this test, I realized I could localize subs and after becoming aware of it, I noticed it even in places I'd never been to before. I walked into a nightclub and immediately noticed that I was hearing the higher frequencies from my right side but the visceral thump came from my left. I then looked around to see where the subs were and didn't see them, so out of curiosity, I just headed where I felt the thump coming from and found them hidden behind a baffle wall under the stage.

I'm still not sure if the localization is from what I hear or what I feel.


Max
Edited by djbluemax1 - 8/10/12 at 1:03pm

Thanks, maybe that was what I saw. What, in my own head, really makes this a fear is my experience yesterday. When listening to the focus se right in the sweet spot, they were perfect, but when the height of my head adjusted even the slightest bit, the sound changed dramaticlly.

Hello ChopShop1,

The Focus SE are designed to provide a quite linear directivity pattern to reduce room interaction. You will notice that the cabinets have a slight angle to them- this is to optimize the sweet spot towards the listening position and prevent diffraction. We recommend placing the "imaginary intersection point" of the Focus SE right behind the listening position, and adjusting from there to taste.

The Focus SE are also capable of height adjustments via the included feet, which can be removed, raised, or lowered slightly to optimize the speaker vertically. Between the height adjustments and proper spacing and toe in, the Focus SE will happily provide a wide and tall sweet spot. These adjustments are often made in recording studios to optimize the speaker's performance in each room- a practice that many users have adopted to further tailor the sound for their unique situation (close and sitting, far and standing, etc.). I hope that is helpful, and answers your question!

All the best,
James
Legacy Audio

Thanks for the info/clarifications James. I'm a little curious though about how much the directivity pattern differs (if at all) in the mids and highs between the Focus SE and Whisper HD/XD, as I see recommendations to toe-in the intersection point of the Whispers in front of the MLP as opposed to behind for the Focus SEs. Why is that?


Max

Thanks for the reply James. I actually made a plan to go back to my Legacy Dealer tomorrow to do some experiments and see just how large we can make that sweet spot.

Max,

Focus and Whisper will image similarly in the high frequencies.

The Whisper HD/XD has a recommended toe-in intersection point in front of the listening position due to it's advanced design- because we are using the four 15" woofers (per Whisper speaker) to control radiation pattern at low frequencies, we achieve a uniformly directional radiation pattern that is more cardioid in nature across all frequencies! As such there is a deeper null of low frequencies off axis (a good thing since we want to minimize room interaction to accurately reproduce the recorded event).

Since the Whisper speakers are independent of the room, they can be toed in more aggressively. Having the imaginary intersection point in front of the listening positioning increases the ratio of stereo difference (L-R) component to mono (L+R). If you imagine both speakers as lights, casting a shadow across the listener's face, the greatest shadow is cast by toeing in in front of the listening position.

That acoustic "shadow" from the speaker is interpreted by our ear and brain as stereo information. The Whisper's room independence allows greater toe in, resulting in the best possible imaging. Having the four mid-range drivers, both doubles the piston area, resulting in increased resolution, and provides a wider "lens" to shine across your face!

I hope that was helpful.

Best,
James

For those interested in the Whisper XD (or speaker design in general)- here's a demonstration in the lab, showing off their imaging capabilities.
Legacy Whisper XD Demonstration

Best,
James