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How Viewing Environment Conditions Can Corrupt Or Enhance Your Calibration - Page 2

post #31 of 108
Thread Starter 
Quote:


I just got my ideallume backlights and installed them. I haven´t yet calibrated the backlights but I dimmed them down pretty much all I could. I only have a 32" and I still get tons of backlight. Gonna get DVE to try and calibrate it a bit.

That's a lot of light for such a small TV. However, LCDs tend to run brighter and you may end up needing the extra illumination to put the right amount of illumimation on the wall (10% of peak white). Another way to reduce the light, after rotating the baffle tubes all the way around, is to rotate the whole fixture around to block more light from reaching the wall.
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Feels like the image somewhat feels brighter then before due to the backlight which I thought would be the other way around?

If you mean versus having the room lighting on, yes it will likely appear brighter in a darkened room.
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I also use the tv as computer monitor so it being better for the eyes is a big plus if it turns to be true

Of course it's true!
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Though it´s not all that far from grey after all.

Sounds decent enough for a 90% kind of guy.
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Should I set it to 6500 too if it isn´t already

Only if you want better image fidelity.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
post #32 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

Here's a neat trick for folks who balk at the bat cave concept. Use darker shades of gray, rather than black, especially on the front and side walls. Illuminate the neutral gray portions with soffited or baffled colored lights. The lights will turn the gray portions of the room any color you want. This gives unlimited color choices for the designer to use when the lights are on in the room. Darker shades of gray are very nearly as effective as flat black during the showing of the movie.

More colored light options are appearing on a regular basis with LED arrays. In fact, the red/green/blue arrays can be controlled electronically to produce just about any color in the spectrum. Conventional white lights can be added for times when the room must be navigated in or for cleaning.

The LED arrays would offer automated color schemes that could be changed with mood or theme. How about green, prior to showing 'The Matrix' films. Blue could be used prior to 'The Terminator.' Red would be appropriate prior to a Dracula flick. The options are only limited to the owner's imagination.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

A little like this:

http://gallery.mac.com/kipnis#100013

Cheers -

Jeremy


www.Kipnis-Studios.com
post #33 of 108
Thread Starter 
post #34 of 108
I think it very important to stress these lighting schemes are kind of cool prior to the movie and not during! But, then again, I suppose that is covered in the title of this thread. Great examples, guys.
post #35 of 108
Thread Starter 
Yes, the point is- rooms can be designed to look "cool" when the video system isn't being operated and all the lights are on. When the lights go out and the show begins, the room should disappear. All that is required to reach an acceptable compromise is some fundamental understanding of imaging science principles and a little imagination/ingenuity.

The problem remains that so many consumers, home entertainment contractors, and interior design professionals, haven't realized that correctly performing home theater design isn't "business as usual." Like most pursuits in life, genuine excellence requires education and extra effort. Intuition, whim, fad, fashion, anecdotal experience, uninformed preconceived notions, etc., may suffice for some decisions but not when it comes to conveying image fidelity.
post #36 of 108
I think some of the pics shown in a lot of the publications do a disservice in these matters, for exactly the points you've been making throughout this thread. They always cut and paste an image on the display they are trying to 'show off' and I think people think that's cool and try to emulate it.
post #37 of 108
Thread Starter 
I understand their objectives completely. There is no simple way to convey in a print or online publication how a room performs. Such feature articles focus on what can get folks' attention with a few words and photos. Unfortunately, poor technical design practice gets mixed up with attractive aesthetic priorities.

I'm not dogmatic on this issue. It's perfectly alright to have greater priorities that conflict with image fidelity, as long as the consequences to picture quality are understood and consciously considered acceptable. As an imaging science advocate, my intent is to educate the home theater community about the consequences behind the compromises. When the blind lead the blind, they both can end up where neither really intended.
post #38 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

Yes, the point is- rooms can be designed to look "cool" when the video system isn't being operated and all the lights are on. When the lights go out and the show begins, the room should disappear. All that is required to reach an acceptable compromise is some fundamental understanding of imaging science principles and a little imagination/ingenuity.

The problem remains that so many consumers, home entertainment contractors, and interior design professionals, haven't realized that correctly performing home theater design isn't "business as usual." Like most pursuits in life, genuine excellence requires education and extra effort. Intuition, whim, fad, fashion, anecdotal experience, uninformed preconceived notions, etc., may suffice for some decisions but not when it comes to conveying image fidelity.

Here, Here!

This is why an IMAX or Academy Screening is no guarentee of image or sound fidelity. But they can be some impressive screening conditions when both the archetecture and decor compliment the technology utilized.

Balance and sensitivity are two other key traits I value in my work as a screening and listening room designer.

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com
post #39 of 108
Thread Starter 
I posted a recent discovery over in another thread, that should be instructive for readers following this discussion: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post13966345

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
post #40 of 108
Great stuff, George. Thanks.
post #41 of 108
Is there a general rule regarding how many light units will be needed to create the ideal amount of lighting?

I have a 42" Vizio XVT and was wondering if one Ideal-Lume standard would be adequate for my setup.

In another room (family members) we have a 58" Panasonic Plasma. Would one Ideal-Lume standard be adequate(I assume not)?

If any one has any information regarding this I would appreciate it.

Daniel
post #42 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by dachness View Post

Is there a general rule regarding how many light units will be needed to create the ideal amount of lighting?

I have a 42" Vizio XVT and was wondering if one Ideal-Lume standard would be adequate for my setup.

In another room (family members) we have a 58" Panasonic Plasma. Would one Ideal-Lume standard be adequate(I assume not)?

If any one has any information regarding this I would appreciate it.

Daniel

One Ideal-Lume standard bias light (behind the display) should work for either display. Just because the Panasonic is 58" or is a Plasma will not change the bias lighting requirments - only the amount of light coming from the screen. The brighter (or higher contrast) the image is, the more bias lighting you will require. But first, try adjusting the contrast of each set to be 10 times the bias lighting coming from a single light. This will create the correct proportion of ambient light versus on-screen light levels - thus achieving ideal iris size versus actual in-room light levels.
post #43 of 108
Thank you for the clarification. The reason I asked was that I saw pictures with as many as 2-4 lighting units on some of the pictures on their website.

Daniel
post #44 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by dachness View Post

Thank you for the clarification. The reason I asked was that I saw pictures with as many as 2-4 lighting units on some of the pictures on their website.

Daniel

I'm certain that they would like to sell you as many as possible. And given a specific light requirement (by you) might very well need several of their units.

But . . . many, here on these forums, believe in Cinema light levels which should be 16 foot-Lamberts on a screen whose apparent size fills about 1/3 of your center front vision - this in a dark theater. But the most important part for you is that the light levels from your monitors generate life-like whites while maintaining solid (BUT DETAILED) blacks - this is contrast ratio.

Tell, me . . . with either of these sets, have you had them calibrated or made adjustments yourself to improve the ut of the box" performance?
post #45 of 108
Thread Starter 
Daniel,

Jeremy has made some good points. Much depends on how dark the wall is behind the display. This discussion would be more specifically suitable in the sticky thread dedicated to video display bias lighting. There are many other viewing environment issues beyond the scope of that thread topic, which are the focus of this thread. I would also be pleased to handle any specific application questions regarding my products through company phone or e-mail, if you want individual help.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
post #46 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by DefinerOfReality View Post

I'm certain that they would like to sell you as many as possible. And given a specific light requirement (by you) might very well need several of their units.

But . . . many, here on these forums, believe in Cinema light levels which should be 16 foot-Lamberts on a screen whose apparent size fills about 1/3 of your center front vision - this in a dark theater. But the most important part for you is that the light levels from your monitors generate life-like whites while maintaining solid (BUT DETAILED) blacks - this is contrast ratio.

Tell, me . . . with either of these sets, have you had them calibrated or made adjustments yourself to improve the ut of the box" performance?

I recently purchased the Vizio 42" XVT and have used the THX calibration for brightness, contrast, and shaprness. The remaining settings I used from CNET's calibration of the 47" XVT.

I did this for AV (DVD player), VGA (Computer), HDMI (Computer).

The 58" Panasonic isn't as new, it was purchased from bestbuy a few months ago and will be calibrated in November as part of the package deal. The 58" is my fathers and has not been touched yet for calibration. I intend to calibrate the brightness, contrast and sharpness with the THX disc to see how close I come to professional calibration.

I am essentially convinced that I would like to setup bias lighting. I am also trying to convince my father it would benefit him. Most of his watching is at night (TV/Movies) with the lights off. I intend to purchase a more thorough calibration DVD possibly DVE blueray, but will wait to see if a PS3 becomes part of my system.

I likely will contact George via email or phone. The main concerns are one unit will being adequate, whether the ideal-lume panel light is essentially two standards(one for me, one for dad).

Attached is a picture of my current setup for the 42". Note that I have not yet adjusted my center speaker from its original position for a 32". I realize my backing isn't ideal with the framing and louvers. I also assume that the speaker sitting on the top of the TV would also prevent the complete surrounding of bias lighting. The center speaker does not support it self, hence leaning on the TV. If required I could make something to support the speaker and raise it above the TV.

Any feedback or suggestions would be appreciated.

Daniel
LL
post #47 of 108
Thread Starter 
Thanks, Daniel, for moving your questions to the bias lighting thread.
post #48 of 108
We have a large window one side of the living room and finally convinced my parents to buy some kind of black out shade for it. I took them to blinds to go and they would like to buy a blackout roller shade. They would prefer to buy from blinds to go because they have a friend there. I have a couple of questions.

1. They want an inside mount only. The problem is, there are 0.5 inch gaps on each side. Will that significantly affect our viewing area?

2. We have a choice on color for one side (the side that will be facing the living room) to be any color we want. Would colors such as brandy cream be ok to put up or would a neutral color be better (solid white, black, or grey). I think they would prefer something a little more "lively" than the latter.

Relative to N,S,E,W, the window is on the W while the TV is on the N wall. Thanks in advanced.
post #49 of 108
Thread Starter 
The half inch gaps should not be very problematic although not ideal.
The wall behind the TV is of primary concern for color. Choose a color as close to neutral as possible. A vivid color would be most undesireable for best color perception from the TV image. The other colors in the room would be best subdued rather than vivid. A wall directly opposite the TV should be darker, as much as possible. Multi-use rooms are commonly a challenge when designing a color scheme for non-TV use.
post #50 of 108
The Color of the wall behind the TV is white which I think is fine. This is a living room/family/movie watching room so I don't really have control over the color of the walls. Do you have any suggestions for inside mounts that do not have gaps? Preferably something that gives us the ability to still see through the window. I've seen a couple of pictures on this website where people compeltely covered their windows with fabric or garbage bags but I don't think my parents would like that idea. If nothing, I guess these rollers would do.
post #51 of 108
Thread Starter 
Roller shades are quick, easy and inexpensive. You could put trim moldings on either side of the window jambs, painted or stained to match. They would serve as baffles for blocking the light leakage. Other options from window shade boutiques offer tracks that a matching shade runs in for total light seal. They are much more expensive.
post #52 of 108
when setting the 10% of light using the dve disk will it work for both lcd and plasma, cause i have both. Also on that subject i find that trying to match the grey shown on the pattern and the shade on the wall is really hard to be accurate given that it has to be done visually and not with specialized equipment.
Another thing that im confused with is the possibility of placing two idealumes instead of just one in the back of my lcd. This tv is made to be wider than the normal flat panel tv, its a 40 incher. So the reasult is that i dont get as much light coming from the sides of the tv. Though i do get more than enough light coming from the top and bottomof the tv.
Judging from the pictures provided by the other idealume owners on this site it seems that they are getting an equal amount of light output behind the tv reflecting on the wall, like 2 to 3 inches of light all around the tv in a straight line. What i get is light start of bright than starts to fade slowly not abruptly like the other examples mentioned above. I dont know if im describing this effect the best i can, but think of two different frames and the tv being the picture in the frame. Mine looks like a circular frame and the other settups look like rectangular frames having 2 to 3 inches equally on all four sides.
I dont know why i cant make it look like the others?
post #53 of 108
Thread Starter 
Quote:


when setting the 10% of light using the dve disk will it work for both lcd and plasma, cause i have both.

It will work in every case where both video and human vision are used together. The type of display is doesn't matter.
Quote:


Also on that subject i find that trying to match the grey shown on the pattern and the shade on the wall is really hard to be accurate given that it has to be done visually and not with specialized equipment.

Such a degree of accuracy is not necessary. Your visual judgement is sufficient for the procedure. The similar pattern on the 'Avia Guide to Home Theater' or 'Avia II' DVDs may work better for you.
Quote:


Another thing that im confused with is the possibility of placing two idealumes instead of just one in the back of my lcd. This tv is made to be wider than the normal flat panel tv, its a 40 incher. So the reasult is that i dont get as much light coming from the sides of the tv. Though i do get more than enough light coming from the top and bottomof the tv.
Judging from the pictures provided by the other idealume owners on this site it seems that they are getting an equal amount of light output behind the tv reflecting on the wall, like 2 to 3 inches of light all around the tv in a straight line. What i get is light start of bright than starts to fade slowly not abruptly like the other examples mentioned above. I dont know if im describing this effect the best i can, but think of two different frames and the tv being the picture in the frame. Mine looks like a circular frame and the other settups look like rectangular frames having 2 to 3 inches equally on all four sides.
I dont know why i cant make it look like the others?

Such a degree of uniformity is not necessary. How the illuminatiion distributes on the wall is determined by many various factors: size and shape of the TV cabinet, how far from the wall the bias light happens to be mounted, whether it's vertical or horizontally oriented, how the rotating baffle tube is adjusted, whether or not the light fixture is also rotated, how parallel to the wall the back of the TV cabinet happens to be, how reflective the wall surface is (ie: glossy vs matte finish), etc. I suspect you may have the TV too close to the wall. Try moving it a bit farther away. Don't try to match other people's photos unless you think your system is completely identical to theirs.
post #54 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

It will work in every case where both video and human vision are used together. The type of display is doesn't matter.

Such a degree of accuracy is not necessary. Your visual judgement is sufficient for the procedure. The similar pattern on the 'Avia Guide to Home Theater' or 'Avia II' DVDs may work better for you.

Such a degree of uniformity is not necessary. How the illuminatiion distributes on the wall is determined by many various factors: size and shape of the TV cabinet, how far from the wall the bias light happens to be mounted, whether it's vertical or horizontally oriented, how the rotating baffle tube is adjusted, whether or not the light fixture is also rotated, how parallel to the wall the back of the TV cabinet happens to be, how reflective the wall surface is (ie: glossy vs matte finish), etc. I suspect you may have the TV too close to the wall. Try moving it a bit farther away. Don't try to match other people's photos unless you think your system is completely identical to theirs.

the tv is not in a cabinet and its 3 to 4 inches from the wall. i have it placed horizontally across the back of the tv at exactly the center point of the tv, by measurements, and the filter is also rotated in the canter. I also have a second idealume in hand and i dont know if its a good idea to place both side by side to help get some light on the sides of the tv, because of the wideness of the my panel i dont get as much light from the sides.
post #55 of 108
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by amp pop View Post

the tv is not in a cabinet and its 3 to 4 inches from the wall. i have it placed horizontally across the back of the tv at exactly the center point of the tv, by measurements, and the filter is also rotated in the canter. I also have a second idealume in hand and i dont know if its a good idea to place both side by side to help get some light on the sides of the tv, because of the wideness of the my panel i dont get as much light from the sides.

I was refering to the TV's own cabinet, not implying that you placed it into an entertainment center or additional cabinet. Just try the additional light behind the TV, if you are reluctant to move it out from the wall farther.
post #56 of 108
just so i know what is the optimal distance to have between the bias lamp and the wall, like i said i have it at around 4 inches right now.Is it not enough?
would nt two lights be overkill? What the best case scenario?
post #57 of 108
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by amp pop View Post

just so i know what is the optimal distance to have between the bias lamp and the wall, like i said i have it at around 4 inches right now.Is it not enough?
would nt two lights be overkill? What the best case scenario?

Optimal distance is for you to determine.
Whether two lights would be overkill is for you to determine.
The best case scenario is for the illumination on the wall to surround the TV screen evenly and the general level of brightness on the wall to be 10% or slightly less of the brightest white the TV produces after adjusting the picture for dark room viewing.
post #58 of 108
One question. The walls at our home are white. But How do I know if I have the right shade of white?
post #59 of 108
Thread Starter 
The simple way is to compare the paint on the wall to a known reference under the same lighting you'll use during viewing of the display. I suggest using a Munsell Neutral Value sample for specifying, matching, and judging neutral paint colors: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_viewing.htm . The Munsell Color Order System is the method used by SMPTE for specifying color. Most residential applications wouldn't require absolute precision but it's not really very expensive or difficult to achieve reference quality viewing environment conditions in the home. The greatest obstacle for most people is simply not understanding the principles involved.
post #60 of 108
Hello,

I will soon be getting my 63" samsung plasma and will be getting it ISF calibrated.

The walls in my 'theater room' are light, desaturated blue (wifes choice, not mine). The blue is an even lighter shade than that used on this site. I don't think its too bad, but if I can achieve the correct 6500k backlight color that would be ideal.

is there a backlight out there that can compensate for this by going a bit more warm than 6500k? I saw talk of LED backlights in the locked thread, but could somebody please fill me in on what products are out there or how I could compensate for slightly blue walls?

Thanks alot
Ryan
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