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Flaming Oak Cinema (A Cathan Production) - Page 3

post #61 of 2687
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys.

Mark - check out the projector/powercord/ups in equip closet discussion in Craig's ReedZone Theater thread. You may remember the thread that I'm trying to find.
post #62 of 2687
Thread Starter 
So my structural engineer is coming out tomorrow morning to take a look at what can be done with this beam. The picture was taken from what would be outside of the back of the room.



My original thought was to just move the column from the end of beam to some point around 5-6' further in. The beam would then be enclosed in a soffit, but the soffit would have to be pretty wide. My concern is that the wide soffit may created problems once I put in a riser in the back of the room.

So then I started thinking what if I move the column as planned and then cut the beam off at the column. To support that section of the house I would then install that 6' beam so that it is closer in line with the other beam (basically the other side of the HVAC trunk). Now that would mean having to install three columns total (relocated, and perhaps I would need to replace the ceiling joists that are just slightly longer. I would also need to reroute that main HVAC trunk line which could be a pain.

Anyway, before I go much further with the engineer who I'm paying by the hour, I figured I'd float the idea by here. Good plan? Bad plan? Waste of money? Also, no clue what this would run me if I farmed some of it out. Bracing a house from collapsing on me has me a bit nervous.
post #63 of 2687
I'm having trouble picturing which one you want to move. Just to confirm, its the one on the left in the shot above, correct?
post #64 of 2687
Yes, the beam is on the left and the shiny silver thing is duct work.
post #65 of 2687
I'm a little confused too. Is it the main beam you see in the picture or the beam/pole at the rear of the picture. From pictures in post #3 I'm thinking its the one at the rear.

Cheers,
Mark
post #66 of 2687
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritInVA View Post

I'm a little confused too. Is it the main beam you see in the picture or the beam/pole at the rear of the picture. From pictures in post #3 I'm thinking its the one at the rear.

Cheers,
Mark

That's what I thought too, but looking at the first floorplan, I think it might be the one on the left - I think as you face the stairs the theater would be to the left, which means that pole would be in the theater area. Michael?
post #67 of 2687
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantsam View Post

Yes, the beam is on the left and the shiny silver thing is duct work.

Gee thanks. Very helpful.
post #68 of 2687
[not an engineer] Assuming it is the beam on the left, and the support pole is at the very end of the beam, I see no reason why you can't move that post back a few feet. In fact, I would think that would make it stronger since the respective spans are shorter. [/not an engineer]
post #69 of 2687
Thread Starter 
Sorry for the confusion. The false wall makes it a bit confusing. If you can imagine a room, the photo is taken from the perspective of the right rear corner of the room looking to the front on the room. The right pole that you see will be in the right-hand wall eventually.

The pole I need to move is left one that is partially hidden behind the steel shelving. The beam that I want to cut short is connected to that left pole.

If it's still confusing let me know and I'll try to draw a picture.
post #70 of 2687
Maybe if you can add the beams to the floorplan as they are now and then show versions of both options you looking at.

Cheers,
Mark
post #71 of 2687
Ok, re-read what you posted and it makes sense now. To be honest, I think that's going to be more trouble and $$ than its worth. If it were me, I'd move the post back as you originally planned. Now that said, I think your other plan is do-able. What you would probably need to do though is cut back the "mini" beam that is there now a little so you could rest the end of the new beam on the same support pole. Then weld the two beams together (there would need to be a span of steel under the support pole obviously. Then you need a column at the other end of the new beam. If you do that first, then you can cut back the other beam after that and put the new support pole in. So I wouldn't worry about supporting the house as long as you stage things correctly. But, again, I think its a lot of work to make a soffit thinner and your theater ceiling is going to be clear in either case. There are better places to spend the $$ IMO

EDIT: I see now that your ceiling will have soffit in the theater. How far back does the beam have to be cut to take it out of the theater and put the new support pole in the back wall of the theater room?
post #72 of 2687
Thread Starter 
I used my uber artist skills. Perhaps this will help you picture it better.


The big fat circle is where I would move the pole to.
post #73 of 2687
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by strange_brew View Post


EDIT: I see now that your ceiling will have soffit in the theater. How far back does the beam have to be cut to take it out of the theater and put the new support pole in the back wall of the theater room?

The visio plan I drew has the pole moving about 6 ft. That was purely a guess. The engineer will need to tell me how far back I can move it.

What Bpape tells me that for every foot I move the wall back, I'll get about another 4 inches to provide for a third bar-rail row. By moving the pole 6 feet i will have around 40" behind the second row of seats. That's pretty tight of the stool users. While I don't expect to host many events where the stools would be used, it would be nice to know what it would take to make this configuration work during this planning/design period. If I can't get it to work, I may just scrap the idea.

As for the soffit. The Visio diagram is to scale as to pole locations and how deep that soffit would run into the room. If I made one the same depth on the opposite wall, I would have around 40% of the back ceiling soffited.
post #74 of 2687
Is this how the beams run?



If yes I doubt that you can move to pole back that far an leave the end unsupported. Cutting off this excess and then extending the other beam does not look like an option either as the joists don't look like they are long enough to reach that beam (but difficult to tell from picture).

Cheers,
Mark
post #75 of 2687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathan View Post

The visio plan I drew has the pole moving about 6 ft. That was purely a guess. The engineer will need to tell me how far back I can move it.

What Bpape tells me that for every foot I move the wall back, I'll get about another 4 inches to provide for a third bar-rail row. By moving the pole 6 feet i will have around 40" behind the second row of seats. That's pretty tight of the stool users. While I don't expect to host many events where the stools would be used, it would be nice to know what it would take to make this configuration work during this planning/design period. If I can't get it to work, I may just scrap the idea.

As for the soffit. The Visio diagram is to scale as to pole locations and how deep that soffit would run into the room. If I made one the same depth on the opposite wall, I would have around 40% of the back ceiling soffited.

Gotcha. In that case I can understand wanting to move it. Can you also move the ductwork? In other words, can you make the ceiling completely clear?
post #76 of 2687
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritInVA View Post

Is this how the beams run?



If yes I doubt that you can move to pole back that far an leave the end unsupported. Cutting off this excess and then extending the other beam does not look like an option either as the joists don't look like they are long enough to reach that beam (but difficult to tell from picture).

Cheers,
Mark

That's exactly it. I think I would need to replace 5 joists if I wanted to cut the beam and move it. Besides one cable that would be moved the moment I remove the current false wall, there are no obstructions keeping me from adding new joists. Right now the joists run up to the right edge of the duct work. Even moving the beam this far would help keep the soffit to a reasonable size. Of course the HVAC would need to be redone, but I think it will need to be done regardless.
post #77 of 2687
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by strange_brew View Post

Gotcha. In that case I can understand wanting to move it. Can you also move the ductwork? In other words, can you make the ceiling completely clear?

Not entirely. That main duct eventually runs into the theater room two feed to registers on the main floor. But I would be replacing the metal duct with the soft tube kind. On the opposite wall is where I would run the room's HVAC feed. I think...
post #78 of 2687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathan View Post

That's exactly it. I think I would need to replace 5 joists if I wanted to cut the beam and move it. Besides one cable that would be moved the moment I remove the current false wall, there are no obstructions keeping me from adding new joists. Right now the joists run up to the right edge of the duct work. Even moving the beam this far would help keep the soffit to a reasonable size. Of course the HVAC would need to be redone, but I think it will need to be done regardless.

I think the route your thinking is the best option.

Are you thinking of sistering with additional or completly replacing the existing joists? Do you have easy access (i.e. carpet that can be pulled back) above this area to secure the flooring?

I'm not sure you can replace the main trunk line with flexi. Maybe divert it so its outside the HT area. But maybe others with HVAC qualifications can chip in.

Cheers,
Mark
post #79 of 2687
Thread Starter 
Sistering would seem to be easier. And no easy access from above. It's the kitchen right above and although we want to redo the kitchen floor, that project wasn't going to be done until a couple more years. I guess I could always redo the kitchen floor first if I had to...but I think my wife may rebel if I told her I had to do the kitchen floor only because it would effect the threater room.

The part of the HVAC line in the photo that I would want to replace is only what's running into the room. So from the "T" on down.
post #80 of 2687
Yeah agree sistering would be easier - I would think bolting them together will work. But thats why your hiring an engineer.

On the HVAC I still think you will need that main trunk to supply above and the HT. Looks like its no more than 18" wide so could be within a soffit.

Cheers,
Mark
post #81 of 2687
Agreed on the sistering. The only thing I would be concerned about though is why that beam is there in the first place. If the loads from above are being carried directly on the beam it may not be as simple as just moving it back. The new joists would then have to carry the dead weight that the beam was carrying before as well as the live loads on the floor above. Right now the joists are just carrying the live loads (I'm guessing). You might be able to beef up the joists enough but it may not be as simple as just sistering the joists to make the span.
post #82 of 2687
It looks as if you would be alright. It seems as if you are NOT increasing the span that the beam will support. I wouldn't think you would need a stronger beam to support the weight. However, the portion of the beam that is "unsupported", after the pole, maybe subject to torsional stresses. 10 Bucks you could move the pole and just have a guy come and weld some reinforcement along the beam. Maybey box it out. Go for it.
post #83 of 2687
Thread Starter 
So the visit from the engineer was productive. It looks like I can sister the joists using only around 3' long lumber and with very little problem be able to extend the right side beam (from the photo) and cut the left beam. The extended beam would just need to be connected with a steel plate to the existing beam and run just short of the HVAC "T" connection that you can see in the photo. Almost none of the electrical, plumbing or gas lines would need to be relocated or moved either.

That would give me a room that would look something like this:



I should have a pretty clean work area that will be 26' (L) x 12' (W) x7'2" (H).

Once I get the final plans from the engineer I'll start bidding out the work. Assuming I install the cement footers, install the sistered ceiling joists and gather the beam materials, I can't imagine it will run me too much to pay for some help installing the beam extension and columns and cutting out the old beam section.

Next step is to go look at some chairs with the wife. If I could just drag her away from studying, we may be able to do it this evening.
post #84 of 2687
Good result! So when are you 'breaking ground'?
post #85 of 2687
Thread Starter 
Not sure yet. Likely in a couple of weeks. It may make sense for me to put in the egress window well before starting. That way I can get things into the basement without having to go up and down stairs. The engineer mentioned something about the footers needing 3,500 lbs of concrete.

I should also bring in an HVAC guy to look to see if my current system can handle the addition.

All of these are pretty big ticket projects (a few thousand each) so will absorb a few months of my theater cash flow. That being said, I'm sure I'll end up buying some studs the moment the permits have been pulled just so that I can swing a hammer.
post #86 of 2687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathan View Post

That being said, I'm sure I'll end up buying some studs the moment the permits have been pulled just so that I can swing a hammer.

You do mean pull the trigger on your nailgun, right?

-drin
post #87 of 2687
Thread Starter 
Or if I end up using metal studs a cordless screwdriver.
post #88 of 2687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathan View Post

Not sure yet. Likely in a couple of weeks. It may make sense for me to put in the egress window well before starting. That way I can get things into the basement without having to go up and down stairs. The engineer mentioned something about the footers needing 3,500 lbs of concrete.

The egress window is an excellent idea. A buddy and I carried the concrete for 2 40"Wx40"Lx24"D footings in the front door and down the stairs using 5 gal buckets. Wife was not happy. 3,500 lbs of concrete doesn't sound too far off. It was easily the worst job in the entire build for me. I didn't count how many trips we had to make to fill those suckers up, but I did require a heavy dose of Advil the next day. My buddy said it took him an hour to get out of bed the next day. LOL.

Quote:


I should also bring in an HVAC guy to look to see if my current system can handle the addition.

Good idea. Would you consider putting in a separate system for the HT if its not up to the task?
post #89 of 2687
Sounds like going to be a fair size job with those footers but a leat you will get a nice unristricted space.

Cheers,
Mark
post #90 of 2687
Thread Starter 
Craig - If our current HVAC can't handle the basement, then I think we'd put in a larger unit that could before we would get a seperate unit. Either way, my plan is to try to have the theater HVAC run in such a way that if we decide to put it on it's own unit, that could be done in the future. I'll tie everything in at a location in the storage area for easy access and upgradeability. It may not be ideal, but seems like a decent compromise on keeping costs down. Of course once I talk to the HVAC guy(s), I may completely change my mind again.

As for the concrete, I've never mixed it before. Any reason why one couldn't do that in the basement? That way I would only need to haul the dry bags and not the wet stuff.
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