First lets get this straight.
The 60i/p output issue with Toshiba's players does not affect authoring at all, so it cannot be compared with optional features in the core specs.
Also punishing Amir for delivering the message for the BDA is sick!
Amir clearly stated that his SOURCES says that Profile 1.1 was covering SD PIP only.
He also sated that he was not a BDA member so could not view the specs personally.
I think the exact correspondence is quite interesting to get right.
Here are the post in the order they occurred.
A question for BD insiders (Paidgeek perhaps?):
With new profile BD players being announced, is there anything official that stipulates what are mandatory vs. optional features for the new profiles?.. something specifically addresses storage requirements, connectivity, HD PiP
, etc... and what features are required for a specific profile deck.
Wikipedia appears to have accurate answers to your questions.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray...vember_2007.29
Not knowing who really authors wikipedia articles, I guess I'm trying to find out if the BDA as an organization has anything more definitive.
For instance, the Wikipedia page lists things like "secondary video decoder (typically used for picture in picture)" and "secondary audio (typically used for interactive audio and commentary)" with no supporting spec, whereas some folks here are talking about HD PiP, etc... that I've never seen an official reference to.
Do you know of anywhere that info is available for me as a prospective consumer? I returned my Sony BDP-1000, as I'm interested in getting something that will support the advanced profile features, and would like to know what they are from something a little more "official".
Actually, do any insiders know about this info?
I can comment on the HD PiP. I heard recently that this feature has been put to pasture! Profile 1.1 is only about SD PiP. We have many sources for this information and they all confirm the same thing.
Yeh, I was surprised too to hear the news given the amount of hype created around this oxymoron. But it seems that the hardware cost is too high for dual HD decode, and demand simply is not there for the feature given the easy ways to implement the same experiences.Of course, we are not part of the BDA. So I am happy to be corrected. Paid? Keith?scaesare
Thanks Amir. This "moving profile target" makes me wary of yet buying a BR deck.
Can ANYBODY with BDA sources confirm exactly what the profles mandate?qz3fwd
paidgeek-I have the same question as I am confused about these profiles and will not buy a BD player until this is clearly explained. These profiles are a mess.
wikipedia is NOT OFFICIAL.
Is wiki really the best source of information out there?
Are these profiles top secret and require a non-disclosure agreement to see?
We are looking for something released by BDA/Sony clearly calling out what is mandatory/optional for each profile.theone2
A question for the BD insiders...is profile 1.1 only SD PiP and not HD?DaViD Boulet
if there is any truth to this, then promptly STOP the train, bitch-slap the BD group, and tell the manufacturers that they need to stop asking BD to strip down to the lowest common demoniator just to keep (initial) prices low.
So, can any BD folks confirm what's the deal? And if Amir is right about this, what can we do to FIX IT so it's done right? Play time is over. BD needs to get with the program, and just matching HD DVD's standard-def PIP functionality is not good enough: we want HD.Paidgeek
Players manufactured after October of this year will support PiP and audio mixing. I do not have an "official" document that outlines the specifications of each profile and the PiP features alone require over a dozen pages in the spec book to cover. As we get closer to November I expect an approved document will be made available from the BDA.Paidgeek
Profile 1.1 supports a secondary video stream at full bit rate at any resolution up to the primary stream resolution
No one here has heard about any features "put to pasture" so consider this false.
We have some sample equipment now that can test PiP and the testing so far has been successful.Paidgeek
The profiles are not moving.
I am not prepared to forward complete details on what the profiles mandate because it will take pages to do so. The short explanation is that PiP is fully supported in a way that very closely mirrors what you can do with your dual decoder HD set-top box at home (like Dish 622). Full resolution secondary stream up to the rez of the primary stream, so long as the frame rates are the same.Paidgeek
PiP is all resolutions for either a profile 1.1 or 2.0 (BD Live) player.Paidgeek
The profiles are not a mess. They are well documented in a very thick book.
Releasing spec data is not permitted under license agreement. I don't expect a document to be released that goes into every detail of primary/secondary resolution/framerate will be coming unless is it provided in a players operations manual.JackBee
Thank you paidgeek for giving us truth vs lies.TheLion
I am very glad you "corrected the given information" so quickly - before some nasty rumors start to spread. So all you need to do now is officially confirming that the PS3 will fully support BD profile 1.1 , 2.0 ,... per firmware upgrade We both know it will happen...Paidgeek
It is not true, please see my other posts.tormond
As to the PiP question you state
"Profile 1.1 supports a secondary video stream at full bit rate at any resolution up to the primary stream resolution"
Is it mandatory that this be the case or is it just supported? I realize that the secondary decoder is mandatory but does it have to be able to do what you stated or can it only implemented to only be capable of SD resolutions (getting this from what Amir said about it being expensive to implement)Amirm
Thank you for the kind and quick response. May I please ask for some clarification to make sure that we are both talking about the same thing?
Originally Posted by paidgeek
Profile 1.1 supports a secondary video stream at full bit rate at any resolution up to the primary stream resolution.
Here is the scenario which I hope you can confirm.
The main title is HD at 1080p.
The so called "PiP" stream is also encoded at 1080p.
The player decodes both simultaneously, and then resizes one on the fly and displays it in the typical smaller window of the main window (in other words, true picture in picture).
Does the 1.1 profile MANDATE the above scenario to work? Note that I am not asking what the secondary decoder can do in the absence of content in the primary. Or what is "supported" (because I don't know the precise meaning of that word ). But whether all three elements above: dual HD decoders and an HD to sub-SD resize are present in every hardware compliant with profile 1.1.
My apologies for choice of words here (Put to pasture). But the data that I have is cross verified quite strongly. So for me to go back to the sources and say Sony says you are wrong, I need to have pretty specific language to show them.
Can you please comment on the quality of the resized image as opposed to having PiP that matches the resolution of the PiP window precisely?
There are no optional PiP configurations for profile 1.1 or 2.0 configurations.Paidgeek
Half and quarter scaling of and HD secondary steam are supported as specified by the author in the stream metadata.
I have not seen tests of the scaling quality, but we may have something to look at next week.Amirm
Thanks again :-)
Ah, that kind of resampling ratio would be easier to implement. But one question. Typical PiP window is not a quarter of a screen but usually somewhat smaller. For example, an SD PiP would be one sixth of the resolution of 1080p, not a quarter. So how would one get a true PiP if the minimum is one quarter?
As to embedding the command in the stream, shouldn't the same be available to the title application as to allow full screen version of PiP under user control?
And do you have another resizer mandated in the profile or is this the only one?
Can you please kindly confirm if the exact sequence I stipulated is indeed what the spec mandates? I need something to show folks who told me otherwise .Paidgeek
It was pointed out to me that I missed an "optional" statement for HD PiP in one of the annexes of the format books. Specifically, this means that SD PiP is mandatory, HD PiP is optional.Paidgeek
1/4 and 1/2 are the only specified resize dimensions for HD secondary streams. Even so, I wouldn't say that it is not "true PiP". We also have position control so on an HD raster the 1/4 HD PiP can be placed as needed.Richard Paul
Just to make this clear than but does that mean that a HD PiP decoder is optional for the BD-Video 1.1 and BD-Live player profiles? If so when was that decision made and have you heard of the reasons for why that decision was made?Paidgeek
Earlier drafts of the specifications also list the HD secondary video as optional. I do not have any document that shows dual HD decoding was mandatory from the outset.
So Paidgeek anwsered the question about the profile specs with a Wikipedia link, then when Scaesare asked if any other insider had any info, Amirm told he heard that only SD PIP was mandatory.
Paidgeek denied this a few times, Amirm finally pressuresd him and Paidgeek then said that only SD PIP was mandatory and has been in every revision.