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D-Sonic custom Audio amps - Page 37

post #1081 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

The issue with bass is power supply capacity, not slew rate.

If the amp is not limiting or clipping, how is it limiting bass? It's simply a matter of tracking the input signal.

Obviously, if the amp ever demands so much current from the power supply, that the voltage drops sufficiently, to clip, I could understand. But all amps have that potential issue I think?

And people reporting insufficient bass often don't make any qualification that they were pushing the amp hard.
post #1082 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

If the amp is not limiting or clipping, how is it limiting bass? It's simply a matter of tracking the input signal.

Obviously, if the amp ever demands so much current from the power supply, that the voltage drops sufficiently, to clip, I could understand. But all amps have that potential issue I think?

And people reporting insufficient bass often don't make any qualification that they were pushing the amp hard.

True.

I was not pushing the AMP that is why I possed the phase question.

Also, B&O makes statements about the transient nature of music so RMS rating do not represent music. However, I take that to mean they do not do RMS well There are some types of music organ and dance that have long deep sustained bass notes where RMS might be a better indicator of performance.

Some class-D amps like the Axiom use massive caps.
Pioneer's ICE amps can be measured in the traditional fashion and perform quite well.

I am not in position of drawing conclusions but it is interesting.


- Rich
post #1083 of 1234
I don't think 1.5VRms @0dBFS will even get 25% of the capability of a 1000ASP.

MUPI, check out the Marantz 6004 review on Audioholics.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/r...4-measurements.

7VRms from the pre-outs @ 0.1% THD.

Unfortunately, the rest of the receiver is less than stellar, the all-channels-driven numbers (especially since they only did a 1 KHz test rather than the 20-20K they usually do) are about as good as a Sony receiver

If you want full power for movies you might have to get a mono amp for the center channel as well. But this seems to have the most power I've seen for an A/V receiver. I assume if the pre-amp is logarithmic, by the time you are around -3 or -4dBFS you will already be driving a 1000ASP to clipping.
post #1084 of 1234
Are you kidding me? Are you Mupi by a different name?

When you figure the ICE amps double into 4ohms, the premise they wouldn't drive even Maggies because of the output voltage of a friggin receiver is ludicrous. Yes you might not get full power, but what you'll get is MORE than enough. So why on earth does getting "full power" matter?

It doesn't.

Let's get this thread back to relevant discussions.
post #1085 of 1234
lol what. Somebody needs attention.
post #1086 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Are you kidding me? Are you Mupi by a different name?

When you figure the ICE amps double into 4ohms, the premise they wouldn't drive even Maggies because of the output voltage of a friggin receiver is ludicrous. Yes you might not get full power, but what you'll get is MORE than enough. So why on earth does getting "full power" matter?

It doesn't.

Let's get this thread back to relevant discussions.


Why are you trying to dictate what is discussed in this thread? Are you the mod? are we not talking about D-Sonic? are we doing any trash talk? are we calling names? Just because you own this amp and you are happy with it, it does not mean that every body has to follow suit.

Like I have said before it is not about getting full power. It is about how much power I can get out of the amp using an AVR. As mentioned before the AVR rating of 1-1.5V is at 0dbfs. So at lower listening levels all I get is a fraction of a volt and so I only get a fraction of the 1000W from the ICE amp. It is a simple argument. No need to deny this.


To me the only way to find out if that fraction of the 1000W I can get using my AVR is enough to drive my Maggies is to buy the amp and try it.

Like I also said, if no one from D-Sonic had made such a bold claim that any major AVR can drive these amps (especially 1000S) to full power, this discussion would have never happened. If Dsonic is so confident why not give a 30-day home trial like Emotiva does without any restocking fees.

We all know the sensitivity of 1000S and we all know how much voltage the AVRs output. So such statements are not at all credible unless they quote the measurements and the names of the AVRs. My argument is very simple. It is like the oil spill at the gulf. No one measured the flow so no one knows how much is splling out.

I have nothing more to add. I guess the only thing that remains is a reply from D-Sonic, one way or the other.
post #1087 of 1234
In fact I dont need a 30-day trial. It takes 5 mins or less to hook it up, a few mins to see how loud I can play my maggies. So I only need a 7-day trial to cover the shipping time :-)
post #1088 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Why are you trying to dictate what is discussed in this thread? Are you the mod? are we not talking about D-Sonic? are we doing any trash talk? are we calling names?

I'm not trying to "dictate" so much as "steer" the conversation to something that hasn't been beaten like a dead horse. This is like Groundhog Day for crying out loud!

Yes, there has been trash talk and name calling here I don't recall if it's from you, astralite for sure, but to suggest Dennis isn't forthright is akin to that anyways.
post #1089 of 1234
move on please

Thanks
post #1090 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

move on please

Thanks

Yeah, sorry, I'm done.
post #1091 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

If the amp is not limiting or clipping, how is it limiting bass? It's simply a matter of tracking the input signal.

Obviously, if the amp ever demands so much current from the power supply, that the voltage drops sufficiently, to clip, I could understand. But all amps have that potential issue I think?

It does sound pretty straightforward when you state it that way

Those whose opinions I respect, like Mark Seaton, say it's how an amp deals with overload.

In most consumer amps it would seem to be simply clipping; Mark deals with pro amps a lot, which usually have some kind of soft clipping feature, so maybe it's the difference in how those are implemented.

Perhaps also two amps might both be overloading, but the speed with which the reservoir caps can be recharged may result in the shape/sound of the clipped waveforms being different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

In fact I dont need a 30-day trial. It takes 5 mins or less to hook it up, a few mins to see how loud I can play my maggies. So I only need a 7-day trial to cover the shipping time :-)

Actually, if you know the amp sensitivity and the receiver output at 0 dBfs, why do you even need a trial?

You would just drive your speakers with the corresponding amp output voltage.
post #1092 of 1234
I am way off topic. But say an amp did limit bass under certain cases. Ok, I accept maybe that could happen. But people will review amps saying they lack bass with no qualifiers. That would indicate roll off to me. There is no logical reason for any other explanation. In which case, if it was always rolling off bass, it would show up on the bench test.

No offense to anyone, but I don't trust reviews for just such reasons. With no measurements to back up what the reviewer hears*, I would have to take what they say on faith. And there's plenty of reasons out there to doubt people's subjective impressions.

* I don't think bench tests measure every possible metric which could contribute to sound. Unfortunately you have to either accept that a reviewer has these golden ears sometimes, or dismiss what they say due to the well established problems with subjective reviews (If you don't think there are well established problems with subjective reviews, you have not read enough.)
post #1093 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Actually, if you know the amp sensitivity and the receiver output at 0 dBfs, why do you even need a trial?

You would just drive your speakers with the corresponding amp output voltage.


Because I like to hear how loud I can play my maggies :-) Sure I can check some look-up-table and get a rough estimate as to what the SPL would be for the given power, speaker sensitivity and room effects. Such tables/formulas do exist. But to me listening is believing :-)

Sorry for dwelling on this topic. But this would be my last post on this topic.

Like I said before I doubt the 1.5V spec of the Rotel RB-1080 because as per my calculations I get 1.95V. I get the 2.9V for the ICE amp as per my calculations so I believe my math is correct. So I cant use the SPL level I get now with the Rotel amp to do any extrapolation as to what I would get with the ICE. So to me listening is believing.

Will see. I might buy the amp later as I dont lose much. I still have not decided whether I should change the speakers or get the ICE amp.
post #1094 of 1234
The rms output of an AVR should NEVER be able to drive an audio amplifier to full power output. The peak signal amplitudes in music are much larger than the rms level of the passage being played. They are typically a factor of 4-5 (or in some cases even more) larger than the rms value. This allows one to hear that trumpet, drum, or other impuls sounds without distortion. The peak of a rms sine wave is only 1.414 times the rms value. Vastly different.

See this link for more explanation on the subject. Go to media.paisley.ac.uk/~campbell/AASP/Statistical%20Measures.PDF
post #1095 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCGannon View Post

The rms output of an AVR should NEVER be able to drive an audio amplifier to full power output. The peak signal amplitudes in music are much larger than the rms level of the passage being played. They are typically a factor of 4-5 (or in some cases even more) larger than the rms value. This allows one to hear that trumpet, drum, or other impuls sounds without distortion. The peak of a rms sine wave is only 1.414 times the rms value. Vastly different.

See this link for more explanation on the subject. Go to media.paisley.ac.uk/~campbell/AASP/Statistical%20Measures.PDF

It's an approximation. If the input voltage can maintain one watt RMS without clipping, I would assume that it matches well with an input sensitivity on one Volt.

The peak voltage level would be 1.4 times the RMS level as you say.



The dynamics of the music does not come into play, IMO. The bottom line is what peak input voltage is required to just stay below the amp's supply voltage.

If the power supply rail voltage is 40 volts, and the gain is 32 dB, an input signal with a peak voltage of one volt, after amplification, should be able to push the amp to it's continuous output limit (making assumptions such as that 40 volts will hold.) The average signal voltage would of course be lower.
post #1096 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCGannon View Post

The rms output of an AVR should NEVER be able to drive an audio amplifier to full power output.

Why not? Just turn the volume down.
post #1097 of 1234
Exactly right on the peak output to peak input required!

My post was in relation to the difference between sine wave periodic signal testing in the lab and actual music. RMS values are quite different and can be very confusing when one looks at specs.
post #1098 of 1234
True!
post #1099 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCGannon View Post

Exactly right on the peak output to peak input required!

My post was in relation to the difference between sine wave periodic signal testing in the lab and actual music. RMS values are quite different and can be very confusing when one looks at specs.

Yes.

I have read that you can de-rate the transformer in an amp design for that reason. Although if you need to look good during honest continuous sine wave testing, your amp's power supply does have to handle that.

The transformer also has to handle the preconditioning period of the FTC rule, if manufacturers still bother to adhere to that rule.
post #1100 of 1234
Yes true. One can derate the xfmr for continuous power by making the windings smaller in wire gauge, a money saving; but if the core saturates from the peak power all bets are off.
IMHU
post #1101 of 1234
If you scroll down in the link below, you will see that Onkyo receivers/preamps have plenty of voltage output

Pre-out level at Recievers

Balanced: 1V/235 Ohm, Max output: 11.0 Vrms
Unbalanced: 1V/470 Ohm, Max output: 5.5 Vrms



http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...voltage-4.html
post #1102 of 1234
I want a 500 watt x 5 channels 8 ohms ice amp but I don't know which company D-Sonic or Wyred makes the better amp?
post #1103 of 1234
D-Sonic seems to put the modules into a case, and that's about it.

W4S claims to make some of their own changes IIRC.
post #1104 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

D-Sonic seems to put the modules into a case, and that's about it.

W4S claims to make some of their own changes IIRC.

I own both and both are great.... I bought the D-Sonic 2000-5 new and got the Wyred 7 channel used...

Both are fantastic and I would easily choose the D-Sonic again for a substantial discount... I think the differences are slight in comparison.

The Wyred amps also put in extra switches for highpass and lowpass if anyone would need such a feature for possible bi-amping or such.
post #1105 of 1234
If you look at B&O's own 1000ASP spec sheet, the module is capable of 150W/channel @1KHz per FTC guidelines.

The maximum continuous power rating is 80W/channel RMS <50C. I verified this in use by watching the current draw from the wall while maximizing the pre-amp volume on a Pioneer Elite receiver. After 0dBFS, the current draw stopped increasing at 1.5A draw from the wall. Even at +8 and beyond the draw would not go up, which reaffirms that the soft-clip circuit indeed kicks in at 80W/channel (per B&O's spec sheet).

If you look at the Audioholics 1000ASP article, the chipset was designed for instantaneous peaks up to 1000W/channel, not RMS. This probably explains the very high input sensitivity, as the gain structure is only meant to hit up to 80W/channel continuous before soft-clip kicks in, with the full-power only meant for transients. In fact if you read the spec sheet, the amp will not even maintain it's "full-power" for 1 second.

DIY'ers online have also reaffirmed that the maximum RMS power at 1KHz/4ohms appears to be 170W/channel from the wall, which is very close to the 1000ASP spec sheet.

The final answer? Don't worry about your receiver's pre-amp voltage out not hitting 2.9V. The amp will most certainly hit its soft-clip at 1.5Vrms.

If you need a lot of continuous power, look to a beefy A/B amp like the Emotiva XPA-2. As far as the audiophiles looking for ice power nirvana? Perhaps the ultimate nail in the coffin is that B&O uses it's 1000ASP modules for it's subwoofers and A/B amps for the tweeter/mids.
post #1106 of 1234
My old system was a Creek OBH-22 passive preamp and a Creek A42 power amp. Speakers were Epos ELS-3 and source was Oppo BDP-83.

I wanted to build a home theater system, but still wanted quality audio for my critical listening. I purchased an Emotiva UMC-1 processor/preamp to replace my Creek passive preamp. It doesn't sound as good as the Creek, but it was very close. Besides with all my A/V stuff I needed the processor and customizable switch that the Emotiva provided.

A couple weeks ago, I read about the D-Sonic and purchased a D-Sonic Magnum 1000S. It was the most expensive amp that I every bought. I am very skeptical about audio equipment and always look at the specs and pricing. Then I evaluate by ear. I am not a believer of "pay more" = "better sound". Only two types of people believe this. People who have money to spend and don't care, and fools. But of course this is just my own opinion.

When I received the Magnum I swapped out the Creek A42 with the D-Sonic 1000S. Turned everything on and expected amazement. I was shocked! It sounded terrible. Everything I played sounded bad and distorted. I thought I had gotten ripped off. I was sort of pissed off.

After a few hours of listening, I noticed that the sound had gotten a bit better. Thinking that maybe my ELS-3's might be the problem, I swapped in a pair of PSB Alpha B1's. It sounded much better. The bass wasn't sloppy and the sound was not as distorted. But I still wasn't happy.

I kept playing music over the next couple days to burn in the amp, to settle down the electronics. Then I turned it off and didn't play anything for a while. I was pissed that I spent all that money and got crap.

Then on the third or fourth day, I played my favorite Barry Flanagan CD. I almost sh@t my pants. It sounded wonderful! I couldn't believe it. Everything sounded much, much better, like some invisible switch turned on from inside the amp. I played more CD's. Jazz, Rock, Folk, female and male vocals. They ALL sounded great.

Yes it does sound a bit different than a solid state or tube amp. But in a beneficial way. The highs roll off very smoothly, better than the soft clipping of a tube amp. Every single sound is distinct and clear but never harsh, better than a class A solid state amp, but more accurate than a class AB amp. Super clean sound, tight control, and fast.

I read somewhere that clean AC power would help make the amp sound better so I picked up a tripplite AC power conditioner for $69. I was amazed that it helped make it sound even clearer.

Now, I love this amp. It is the BEST amp that I've ever, ever owned period. It is so good, I don't think I'll go back to the Creek or to my various tube amps. It is that good.

I must also say that the PSB Alpha b1's are a good match for this amp. I don't know if X-over quality affects the sound, but the amp didn't work out for me with the ELS-3's. Maybe I didn't give them a decent chance, but the D-sonic and the PSB speakers work very well together.

I highly recommend the D-Sonic Magnum 1000S amplifier. Rarely does anything surprise me, or exceed my expectations. I am generally very pessimistically about audio reviews, and even though at the beginning I wasn't very happy, after the amp broke in, I became extremely happy. This amp will not disappoint. If you can afford it, give it a chance.

I'll keep monitoring my amp and post occasional updates. This is only my first few weeks of listening to it, so I'm still wondering what to expect. So far, it has done me quite well.
post #1107 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by satow View Post

My old system was a Creek OBH-22 passive preamp and a Creek A42 power amp. Speakers were Epos ELS-3 and source was Oppo BDP-83.

I wanted to build a home theater system, but still wanted quality audio for my critical listening. I purchased an Emotiva UMC-1 processor/preamp to replace my Creek passive preamp. It doesn't sound as good as the Creek, but it was very close. Besides with all my A/V stuff I needed the processor and customizable switch that the Emotiva provided.

A couple weeks ago, I read about the D-Sonic and purchased a D-Sonic Magnum 1000S. It was the most expensive amp that I every bought. I am very skeptical about audio equipment and always look at the specs and pricing. Then I evaluate by ear. I am not a believer of "pay more" = "better sound". Only two types of people believe this. People who have money to spend and don't care, and fools. But of course this is just my own opinion.

When I received the Magnum I swapped out the Creek A42 with the D-Sonic 1000S. Turned everything on and expected amazement. I was shocked! It sounded terrible. Everything I played sounded bad and distorted. I thought I had gotten ripped off. I was sort of pissed off.

After a few hours of listening, I noticed that the sound had gotten a bit better. Thinking that maybe my ELS-3's might be the problem, I swapped in a pair of PSB Alpha B1's. It sounded much better. The bass wasn't sloppy and the sound was not as distorted. But I still wasn't happy.

I kept playing music over the next couple days to burn in the amp, to settle down the electronics. Then I turned it off and didn't play anything for a while. I was pissed that I spent all that money and got crap.

Then on the third or fourth day, I played my favorite Barry Flanagan CD. I almost sh@t my pants. It sounded wonderful! I couldn't believe it. Everything sounded much, much better, like some invisible switch turned on from inside the amp. I played more CD's. Jazz, Rock, Folk, female and male vocals. They ALL sounded great.

Yes it does sound a bit different than a solid state or tube amp. But in a beneficial way. The highs roll off very smoothly, better than the soft clipping of a tube amp. Every single sound is distinct and clear but never harsh, better than a class A solid state amp, but more accurate than a class AB amp. Super clean sound, tight control, and fast.

I read somewhere that clean AC power would help make the amp sound better so I picked up a tripplite AC power conditioner for $69. I was amazed that it helped make it sound even clearer.

Now, I love this amp. It is the BEST amp that I've ever, ever owned period. It is so good, I don't think I'll go back to the Creek or to my various tube amps. It is that good.

I must also say that the PSB Alpha b1's are a good match for this amp. I don't know if X-over quality affects the sound, but the amp didn't work out for me with the ELS-3's. Maybe I didn't give them a decent chance, but the D-sonic and the PSB speakers work very well together.

I highly recommend the D-Sonic Magnum 1000S amplifier. Rarely does anything surprise me, or exceed my expectations. I am generally very pessimistically about audio reviews, and even though at the beginning I wasn't very happy, after the amp broke in, I became extremely happy. This amp will not disappoint. If you can afford it, give it a chance.

I'll keep monitoring my amp and post occasional updates. This is only my first few weeks of listening to it, so I'm still wondering what to expect. So far, it has done me quite well.

That's awesome. Thanks for sharing your story, it's always good to hear about someone's positive experience.
post #1108 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

If you look at B&O's own 1000ASP spec sheet, the module is capable of 150W/channel @1KHz per FTC guidelines.

The maximum continuous power rating is 80W/channel RMS <50C. I verified this in use by watching the current draw from the wall while maximizing the pre-amp volume on a Pioneer Elite receiver. After 0dBFS, the current draw stopped increasing at 1.5A draw from the wall. Even at +8 and beyond the draw would not go up, which reaffirms that the soft-clip circuit indeed kicks in at 80W/channel (per B&O's spec sheet).

If you look at the Audioholics 1000ASP article, the chipset was designed for instantaneous peaks up to 1000W/channel, not RMS. This probably explains the very high input sensitivity, as the gain structure is only meant to hit up to 80W/channel continuous before soft-clip kicks in, with the full-power only meant for transients. In fact if you read the spec sheet, the amp will not even maintain it's "full-power" for 1 second.

DIY'ers online have also reaffirmed that the maximum RMS power at 1KHz/4ohms appears to be 170W/channel from the wall, which is very close to the 1000ASP spec sheet.

The final answer? Don't worry about your receiver's pre-amp voltage out not hitting 2.9V. The amp will most certainly hit its soft-clip at 1.5Vrms.

If you need a lot of continuous power, look to a beefy A/B amp like the Emotiva XPA-2. As far as the audiophiles looking for ice power nirvana? Perhaps the ultimate nail in the coffin is that B&O uses it's 1000ASP modules for it's subwoofers and A/B amps for the tweeter/mids.

I felt there was a bit of a flaw with your otherwise interesting post.

If you clip your pre amp, it's bad no matter what. So say your pre amp clips at 1.5 volts.

Now as you point out, the amp can deal with transients well. But your clipping pre amp can't. So say the input signal tries to go to 2 volts. But it can't. As we just decided it's clipping at 1.5 volts. So...no transients. In other words, you have the potential to have an amp you can't fully use.

Am I wrong?
post #1109 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post

That's awesome. Thanks for sharing your story, it's always good to hear about someone's positive experience.

Thanks. Some people might think I'm a newbie, and maybe I don't have a degree in electrical engineering, but my previous audio systems include the Transcendent Grounded Grid Preamp which I assembled and did the Clive Meakin's modifications, the Transcendent SE-OTL amp which I assembled; I bought an old pair of La Scala speakers which I replaced the mismatched X-overs with a pair of ALK X-overs which I assembled. I don't do a lot of electronic measurements or use theory to explain what is better or such. I just use my ears. If it sounds good, I don't really care how it measures. I think people forget the goal and are too busy arguing about what is technically correct or what is perfect. Of course I use the spec sheets and reviews to decide what to purchase or to try, but I don't start an argument of whether the RMS was measured correctly or according to what specification or standard. Ultimately, all I care is whether it works, does the job, sound good. If it doesn't, then send it back and write what I discovered.
post #1110 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

Seems to me most receivers would be worthless as pre-amps. Typically with no more than 1.5Vrms you are looking at ~125W/channel (8Ω) at clipping, correct? You might end up getting more juice out of the receiver than running an external power amp.

I experienced just this..with my Krell Showcase 7.. @125x7 it was pure crap with my Denon as a prepro. The internal amps where so much better. Atleast I know now I have to go 200+ per channel to avoid clipping most likely. Krell sensitivity is 1.5 and the denon is 1.2...at high volume is was a disaster that lasted about 2 seconds before I went back to the internal amps.
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