How do I get the LFE channel into my mains? (NO SUB)

I don't know how your HD player works, but I know how universal DVD-A/SACD players with 5.1 analog outs work. THEY DO NOT REROUTE THE LFE TO THE LARGE FRONTS WHEN THE SUBWOOFER IS SET TO NO.

I know how your receiver works. It will NOT bass manage your multichannel analog inputs, so it doesn't matter how you set it up; it's settings are applied to the digital connection, only. The multichannel analog inputs only amplify the signal sent through them by the player.

So, if your HD player is like most univeral players, and it drops the LFE channel when setup with NO SUB and your 3805 doesn't bass manage your multichannel analog inputs, then neither option will work for you.

BTW, even with a digital connection, the LFE+Main setting will NOT get the LFE into your mains. What that setting does is send bass info below your crossover setting to the subwoofer in addition to your LARGE fronts.

My suggestion would be to use a calibration disc that has a pure LFE track on it and try to determine if your HD player will reroute LFE when it's setup as having NO SUB. A pure LFE track on AVIA is the "LOW FREQUENCY SWEEP, LFE" track.

If the player doesn't reroute the LFE channel, you're SOL. Sorry.

Your only option would be to get a new receiver with an HDMI connection.

Another option is to just run coax or an optical connection. The A1 along with most multichannel players is horrible at bass management over analog, but it will do a nice job with encoding the high resolution audio formats to DTS. The difference between this and the full resolution audio is very small. While poor bass management is a big problem.

I would use option 1 with a digital connection with your equipment.

He won't get TrueHD sound with a digital connection.

He will get something exceptionally close in quality and much better than most players will deliver with their analog outputs if you need bass management.

All of my tests with the A1 with analog outputs indicate that it fails to bass manage properly. This is true with most players.

All he'll be able to use is DD/DTS. That's all that can be passed via a digital connection and his receiver can't decode anything else, anyway.

I know that, but the difference in quality from full resolution DTS to TrueHD is small.

What?

DTS is a lossy format. TrueHD is a non-lossy hirez format. He wants his TrueHD.

I know DTS is a lossy format, but most people struggle to hear the difference when the bitrates are high. The A1 will encode the TrueHD stream to a high bitrate DTS which is very good. One can choose to spend money how they like. I own and work on a wide range of theater equipment and would not consider the difference in sound quality from this upgrade to be one that compares with many others in most systems. Unfortunately, it is impossible to say what would be best in this case since I have not heard or measured this system, but I doubt the cost of supporting TrueHD over DTS is the best upgrade.

Most people would be better off if they focused on setting up their existing gear better followed by some type of equipment upgrade. Upgrades I would consider would be better or more subwoofers, more power and/or better speakers. I find that these improvements are much easier to hear than the difference in TrueHD over the reencoded DTS version of the sound track.

One of my favorite client's theaters sounds great with whatever you throw at it. It only gets better with great sources. His is one of the few where you would benefit more from the difference in DTS to TrueHD than other upgrades because his system is essentially perfect in all other respects. In fact he does not have the ability to play TrueHD at this point and is in the process of upgrading his surround decoder to obtain that capability. This system already has sound treatment, three very high quality subwoofers, very high quality full range speakers for all channels and high quality electronics.

Look, I don't know who you are; never seen you post until very recently. I see you have a lot of posts. But maybe you've been away too long.

SOWK asked a very specific question about using his player's multi-channel analog outputs. Period. I'm sure he knows exactly what he can do with a digital connection. But he was obviously interested in getting his analog outputs working properly. He never asked a thing about his digital connection.

know DTS is a lossy format, but most people struggle to hear the difference when the bitrates are high. The A1 will encode the TrueHD stream to a high bitrate DTS which is very good. One can choose to spend money how they like. I own and work on a wide range of theater equipment and would not consider the difference in sound quality from this upgrade to be one that compares with many others in most systems. Unfortunately, it is impossible to say what would be best in this case since I have not heard or measured this system, but I doubt the cost of supporting TrueHD over DTS is the best upgrade.

Most people would be better off if they focused on setting up their existing gear better followed by some type of equipment upgrade. Upgrades I would consider would be better or more subwoofers, more power and/or better speakers. I find that these improvements are much easier to hear than the difference in TrueHD over the reencoded DTS version of the sound track.

One of my favorite client's theaters sounds great with whatever you throw at it. It only gets better with great sources. His is one of the few where you would benefit more from the difference in DTS to TrueHD than other upgrades because his system is essentially perfect in all other respects. In fact he does not have the ability to play TrueHD at this point and is in the process of upgrading his surround decoder to obtain that capability. This system already has sound treatment, three very high quality subwoofers, very high quality full range speakers for all channels and high quality electronics.

__________________
W. Jeff Meier


I know what you are saying when most people can't hear the difference in dts and true HD. However, you are assuming that just because all of your clients have lots of money to spend on thier equiptment and sound proofing acoustics and don't have trained ears to hear the difference in pristine audio, doesn't mean that the people here on this forum have untuned ears for discrete pristine quality sound. I am a classical violinist and I have tuned ears to hear the subtle differences in surround sound effects as well as commpression on audio tracks. I do agree with your comment that the bass management problem is a definite downfall, but only if you can't remedy the problem. Some of the trim levels could be adjusted if the reciever alows this. Some recievers may not alow this when the 5.1 input is selected. Levels may be corrected by trimming and increasing in other areas. But I would think that this would be only a temporary fix, because everytime you would want to watch a regular DD track you would have to turn down the lfe input and or boost the levels that you trimmed. This would really be a pain in the rear, but this also could be a saver for you may blow your sub or at least take down the house with the +10 db increase on the lfe end. A reciever or dvd player firmware update could partially fix the problem or redirect the mains to the fronts. Settings on the reciever like the fronts to large or full range or even biamping them could get the results that you want.

I know what you are saying when most people can't hear the difference in dts and true HD. However, you are assuming that just because all of your clients have lots of money to spend on thier equiptment and sound proofing acoustics and don't have trained ears to hear the difference in pristine audio, doesn't mean that the people here on this forum have untuned ears for discrete pristine quality sound. I am a classical violinist and I have tuned ears to hear the subtle differences in surround sound effects as well as commpression on audio tracks. I do agree with your comment that the bass management problem is a definite downfall, but only if you can't remedy the problem. Some of the trim levels could be adjusted if the reciever alows this. Some recievers may not alow this when the 5.1 input is selected. Levels may be corrected by trimming and increasing in other areas. But I would think that this would be only a temporary fix, because everytime you would want to watch a regular DD track you would have to turn down the lfe input and or boost the levels that you trimmed. This would really be a pain in the rear, but this also could be a saver for you may blow your sub or at least take down the house with the +10 db increase on the lfe end. A reciever or dvd player firmware update could partially fix the problem or redirect the mains to the fronts. Settings on the reciever like the fronts to large or full range or even biamping them could get the results that you want.

Oh by the way SOWK I am here in Muskego, Wisconsin. I see you are in Tosa. My wife teaches in the Tosa discrict. I saw your post about flanners audio and video. I used to work there before the move to thier new location. I might be going back to work over the summer to pick up some more hours. Anyhow good luck with you set up. If you have any questions just post them. I have to update my profile I am a new member here and haven't posted pics of my theatre room that I recently finished. I will soon. They are pretty impressive for a do it yourselfer.

SOWK,

You do have very nice speakers. I have worked with them in the past. However, huge differences would indicate either a problem in your system or level differences. Many of these systems will have level differences based on how they handle dialog normalization.

I would lean toward adding a high quality sub to your system.

Good luck.

It's worth a try, I suppose, as "Charles" professes "success". I guess experimentation is the key.

One thing that is unclear to me is the necessity of the low-pass filters in the whole scenario. I would think that the LFE channel of the A1 is already filtered properly.

You will get LFE to your mains if you set your receiver up as having NO SUB (which IS how you'll have it set up, as you have NO SUB).

But the "LFE+Main" setting will only be available if you DO have it setup as having a sub (which you don't) and have set your mains to LARGE. The "LFE+Main" setting doesn't get the LFE into the mains, anyway. It sends bass (not LFE) below your crossover setting, that is already going to the LARGE fronts, to the subwoofer, as well.

Capeche?

Or, as discussed in the other thread, a new 3808 or a subwoofer.

Not sure what you're asking.

"3803"? I thought you said "3808".

Does your player not have an HDMI 1.3 connection?

In all honesty, since I don't use HDMI, I don't know all the ins-and-outs of which HDMI connection does what.

You don't need a HDMI level 1.3 receiver to solve your problem, in fact HDMI levels above 1.1 offer absolutely no benefit with your Toshiba HD-A1 player, which is HDMI 1.1, as stated in the on-line manual.

The simplest solution to your problem is an HDMI 1.1 receiver that can "read" the multichannel PCM output from your player, and do full audio processing of the multichannel PCM, including bass management with capability to re-route the LFE channel to the mains (by setting main speakers = LARGE, subwoofer = OFF). Such as Denon 2307, 2807, 3806. Recent Yamaha HDMI receivers have also gotten good marks for audio processing of multichannel PCM.

In addition, you need to install the firmware update 2.2 for your player (2.1 would also work but 2.2 includes some additional fixes), if you haven't already. The firmware update adds the capability for the player to decode Dolby TrueHD to multichannel PCM, which is an essential link in the chain described in the previous paragraph.

See this link for on-line manual and updates for your player:
http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/customersupport/

And this AVS sticky thread for a discussion of 5.1 / 7.1 channel PCM audio processing by receivers:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=738511

And this sticky thread for a discussion of how HDMI level 1.3 fails to offer significant benefits over level 1.1 (at least in current or soon-to-be-released products):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994