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Measuring Amplifiers - Page 44

post #1291 of 1917
Speaking of racks of PL236s, did anyone grab some of them when MF was having their clearance sale?
post #1292 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

Looks to be the elevator music setup, a bunch of CX702's

Helluva elevator with 52 amps, each capable of 700wpc @ 4 ohms or 2400W bridged.
post #1293 of 1917
Unless you need some esoteric features of PL236 [home users typically don't],
which may come at a high premium, get the PLX3402 instead, it's cheaper
and it's actually the same platform [internal guts] as the PL2 series. One
PCB does all the PL2 and PLX2 series. I'm sure sure if that PCB accomodates
older models, but it wouldn't surprise me.
post #1294 of 1917
Yeah, but for A-stock $899 shipped, it was pretty good deal for that amp.

It takes a fair amount of shopping time to find decent used 3402 for much less than $600-700 to your door these days. Yes, it can be done, but it does take time and patience and you gotta be right place right time or it's gone.
post #1295 of 1917
Someone needs to buy 52 CX702 amps, 104 Aura NRT18-8s paired up in 20ft³ tuned to 25hz, and put them in their theater. Then you can have 164dB to 24hz (within xmax, which is at full amp power).
post #1296 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Yeah, but for A-stock $899 shipped, it was pretty good deal for that amp.

It takes a fair amount of shopping time to find decent used 3402 for much less than $600-700 to your door these days. Yes, it can be done, but it does take time and patience and you gotta be right place right time or it's gone.

A stock
B stock
Used
Abused

Electronic parts doesn't care

QSC has good support for any of those situations.

It's best to find deals, $899 is too high.

CE4000 on e.bay right now, bid $150 [great sub amp]
post #1297 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

A stock
B stock
Used
Abused

Electronic parts doesn't care

QSC has good support for any of those situations.

It's best to find deals, $899 is too high.

CE4000 on e.bay right now, bid $150 [great sub amp]


Yeah, CE4000 is nice on subs... I have two (CE4000, that is). $150 would be a great price, but if it's like the rest, it'll end up about $500-$600. Just depends on the timing and who's watching.

EDIT: That one is broken so it won't fetch the full going rate. Maybe an easy fix, maybe not.
post #1298 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

A voice coil having a DC resistance 3.2Ω is considered to be within or = to a 4Ω nominal load.

The EP2500 is available at djdeals.com for $298 delivered(shipped via UPS ground from New York, NY) and also slightly less currently via Amazon.com, but vendor and availability may vary.

Thanks for answering my questions, that is what I was looking for.

I noticed futher discussion in this thread on the QSC amps and see the QSC RMX-2450 2400 WATT AMPLIFIER goes for about $640 shipped from djdeals. Do you think it is worth the uptick in price over the EP2500?
post #1299 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Dude View Post

Thanks for answering my questions, that is what I was looking for.

I noticed futher discussion in this thread on the QSC amps and see the QSC RMX-2450 2400 WATT AMPLIFIER goes for about $640 shipped from djdeals. Do you think it is worth the uptick in price over the EP2500?

NO.
In that budget range I'd start scrounging craigslist or eBay for a used Crown CE 4000 or QSC Power Light type amp.
post #1300 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

NO.
In that budget range I'd start scrounging craigslist or eBay for a used Crown CE 4000 or QSC Power Light type amp.

I'd look into the following as well in that price range:

http://www.directproaudio.com/produc...directid=57376


it can be had NEW for $799 shipped, and probably cheaper if you shop around. It is a Behemoth thru and thru, easily powering all four of my sealed 18"s in 8ohms. You will need a fan modification, as it is loud, but it is a power plant and a half.

Chasw98 will be testing it on the bench soon, but the rolloff in the bottom end compared to say, my K2's, is evident:
post #1301 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

A stock
B stock
Used
Abused

Electronic parts doesn't care

Helps to read the advertisers definition of A, B, C stock and refurb!
I recently bought a DEQ2496 from Musicians friend they had on sale.
Ad said "B stock".
Order conformation said "Refurb".
Their definition of "B stock" said at the end of a long paragraph "could be refurb".
The DEQ they shipped had production date of July 2003 with old hardware and software. Not a scratch on it. Looked like old stock from known defective production run. That thing didn't last 10 minutes!
post #1302 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

Helps to read the advertisers definition of A, B, C stock and refurb!
I recently bought a DEQ2496 from Musicians friend they had on sale.
Ad said "B stock".
Order conformation said "Refurb".
Their definition of "B stock" said at the end of a long paragraph "could be refurb".
The DEQ they shipped had production date of July 2003 with old hardware and software. Not a scratch on it. Looked like old stock from known defective production run. That thing didn't last 10 minutes!

Long live internet scamming... shipping defective
products to customers
post #1303 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

Long live internet scamming... shipping defective
products to customers

That's why over here I need to buy new whatever products the local shop is selling (with 1-year local pro-shop support with 1-1), or used Behringer products (meaning they have been working for a long time and/or I could test if its working). Its hit-n-run with Behringer products, stacks of returns if you hit a bad run. Some sellers even honour limited 2-weeks warranty.
post #1304 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

I'd look into the following as well in that price range:

http://www.directproaudio.com/produc...directid=57376


it can be had NEW for $799 shipped, and probably cheaper if you shop around. It is a Behemoth thru and thru, easily powering all four of my sealed 18"s in 8ohms. You will need a fan modification, as it is loud, but it is a power plant and a half.

Chasw98 will be testing it on the bench soon, but the rolloff in the bottom end compared to say, my K2's, is evident:

Thanks for the link, it looks like this would fit the bill perfectly.

I noticed the power consumption on the V5001 was listed as 45A @ 120V AC (@ 4 Ohms) / 22.5A @ 240V AC (@ 4 Ohms) which seem more realistic for it listed power output, however in the manual it states:
"25. AC Cord - Plug this cable into a standard 110~120v wall outlet. Check that the voltage in your area matches the amplifiers required voltage."
The specs seem to contradict each other.

Does anyone actually own this amplifier and can tell me what type of electrical service this will need?
post #1305 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Dude View Post

Thanks for the link, it looks like this would fit the bill perfectly.

I noticed the power consumption on the V5001 was listed as 45A @ 120V AC (@ 4 Ohms) / 22.5A @ 240V AC (@ 4 Ohms) which seem more realistic for it listed power output, however in the manual it states:
"25. AC Cord - Plug this cable into a standard 110~120v wall outlet. Check that the voltage in your area matches the amplifiers required voltage."
The specs seem to contradict each other.

Does anyone actually own this amplifier and can tell me what type of electrical service this will need?

no problem.

I don't "own" the amp, but I had it in my possession for a few days. I can't tell you what the power consumption would be of course, but in terms of output power, drainage, and line sag, it handled it much better than my K2's.

one of the biggest issues you will find in your typical home when trying to power big amps, is that your typical 15A or 20A circuit will have a good amount of line sag and Vdrop, which affects its power output. As you have seen in this thread (see some of Chasw98's test results), some amps will drop their power output by nearly half with just 15VAC drop in line. Some of the better amps (CE4000, this V5001, etc) handle line drops much better and continue to provide their rated power.
post #1306 of 1917
Quote:
Some of the better amps (CE4000, this V5001, etc) handle line drops much better and continue to provide their rated power.

What type of tech does the v5001 have in order to pull this off?
post #1307 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

What type of tech does the v5001 have in order to pull this off?

dunno. I'd have to open it up, and I don't have $799 spare to give bosso right now I'd assume it has similar SMPS, PFC, BCA with wind tunnel cooling, plus three input sensitivity settings, like the CE4000 to pull it off, but I could be wrong.
I'm kinda reading bink's test again:
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/bink/bink.jpg
of particular interest to me is the 96VAC test, where the CE4000 is still offering that high power with AC line lossed, K2 power drops alot, 446 watts

I can safely assume the V5001 would do as well given what I saw
post #1308 of 1917
How do you know the V5001 can handle line sags better without seeing any line sag test data ?

V5001 doesn't appear to be a PFC type of amplifier,
looks like a standard conventional power supply which
is subject to line sag issue like any other non-PFC amp.

Chuck already said in this thread he doesn't have the means to perform a line sag test and hasn't done any
for the amps in this thread.

If the amplifier is not PFC or regulated, it would be rare
or even impossible to see it be line sag immune.

/muah


Many high powered proamps are wired to be consumer
friendly, even the big names in pro audio are, 5kw amplifiers using cheap 15A power cords on a 110VAC
circuit in spite that the amplifier would function at it's best
if you had the proper electrical 'input' design. I would
be modding these amplifiers with anemic inputs to either
operate on dual 110VAC lines or a single 220-240VAC line
if you want less issues. The Crest 10k comes with dual
110VAC / 30A lines, a proper feed unlike other amplifiers
like QSC's RMX 5kw amps with anemic feeds.

Starving amplifiers isn't sweet.


Quote:
I'd assume it has similar SMPS, PFC, BCA with wind tunnel cooling

I will place my early bet it's a Chinese ripoff design, conventional power supply with large
toroid(s) and nice heatsink cooling. No PFC, no SMPS, no BCA. This is a wild guess by just
looking at a picture Give me more info and I will update
my guess
post #1309 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

How do you know the V5001 can handle line sags better without seeing any line sag test data ?

V5001 doesn't appear to be a PFC type of amplifier,
looks like a standard conventional power supply which
is subject to line sag issue like any other non-PFC amp.

dunno Thy...would have to open it to see. But I would be very surprised it is a conventional power supply. The way it handled two 8ohm loads on those 4 18" sealed subs, with one single 20A breaker, it would be a miracle if it was conventional.

would be great if Bosso lets chuck open that sucker up and see the guts!
post #1310 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

What type of tech does the v5001 have in order to pull this off?

Caps help against large transients. Other than that, I wouldn't know.

I have been using THESE in my rack (bass rig as well as HT) for 15 years.

The LCR 2400 not only makes minor adjustments in line sag/spike (which most power companies send to your service panel all the time), it lets you know when severe line sag is occurring with indicator lights.

It's a must piece of equipment when using high powered amplifiers, IMO, and I've never had a single problem with any TrippLite product over the years.

Bosso
post #1311 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

I'm kinda reading bink's test again:
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/bink/bink.jpg
of particular interest to me is the 96VAC test, where the CE4000 is still offering that high power with AC line lossed, K2 power drops alot, 446 watts


You were never interested in more power, line sag, and
your K2's were more than enough per our previous debates over the past 1-2 years where I was hammering
these issues on this forum, but people took the power
issue lightly, and many still do

Now you see the light, very nice indeed. K2's with line sag
svck balls for 20hz playback

But not everyone operates their subwoofer to crazy limits
to manifest problems, now that you have four sealed
subs with LT + EQ, you see how these issues start to show
and you need amplifiers with bigger balls.

You can source used QSC PL6.0 PFC or QSC PL9.0 PFC
on the used market and really do some punishment.
Look at binks test for those two and drool.

Note: QSC PL6.0 II is not the same as QSC PL6.0 PFC,
it has no PFC and the scores are less with line sag, but
nonetheless, a nice amplifier too. On the other hand,
wait for the V5001 test, if good, $800 is a good price
and you can use multiples of V5001 if needed. I don't
know if their power cords are proper in design, got rear
panel pics?
post #1312 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

dunno Thy...would have to open it to see. But I would be very surprised it is a conventional power supply. The way it handled two 8ohm loads on those 4 18" sealed subs, with one single 20A breaker, it would be a miracle if it was conventional.

would be great if Bosso lets chuck open that sucker up and see the guts!

I think it would be a miracle if it was SMPS and PFC for
$800 brand new.

* Based on your testimony, seems like the V5001 > K2
* Your circuit breaker can burp more than 20A.
* Didn't you say the LF rolloff was less with V5001?
* Placebo effect: Bigger is better

All these little things add up. Human perception is a funny thing.

I have been a big cheerleader of higher clipping headroom
in amplifiers; for transients, burps, whatever. Playing
music and not seeing early clipping is nice, you may
perceive cleaner and/or more powerful sound. I value
the clipping headroom more than 'watt ratings', but
clipping headroom is a byproduct of high powered designs [watts].
post #1313 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

I don't know if their power cords are proper in design, got rear panel pics?

I didn't take any pics of the rear, but the cord is gargantual....bigger than the CE4000's cord. I believe it is a 10AWG per line, with the cord being nearly 3/4" inch thick! I was barely able to fit a 20A plug in it with just the 3 lines stripped (not the outer jack, which would never fit).

out of the box, it didn't come with any plugs....just three big ol' wires out of the cord waiting to be wired.
post #1314 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

I didn't take any pics of the rear, but the cord is gargantual....bigger than the CE4000's cord. I believe it is a 10AWG per line, with the cord being nearly 3/4" inch thick! I was barely able to fit a 20A plug in it with just the 3 lines stripped (not the outer jack, which would never fit).

out of the box, it didn't come with any plugs....just three big ol' wires out of the cord waiting to be wired.

Sounds good.

Amplifiers with great power should have permanent cords
[wired inside], not cheap 15A IEC removable cords as
found on QSC RMX4050/5050, 4kw - 5kw amplifiers


You can get away with the cheap cord on a CE4000 because it's rated for 77% efficiency [SMPS, PFC, BCA],
but the CE4000 isn't rated as high as the V5001, but
is rated for 3600w if you do 220VAC. Cheap power
cords are fine if ~220VAC is used.

You can probably mod the V5001 plug on that power cord
and install a 30A plug/circuit;



[Crest 10k has dual 30A plugs like this]

Or convert the V5001 to 220VAC.
post #1315 of 1917
Why d1ck around with a V5001 when they sell a V6001 for
a few bucks more ? /jk

http://www.directproaudio.com/produc...directid=57377

Power Consumption: 53A @ 120V AC (@ 4 Ohms) / 25.5A @ 240V AC (@ 4 Ohms)
post #1316 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

Why d1ck around with a V5001 when they sell a V6001 for
a few bucks more ? /jk

http://www.directproaudio.com/produc...directid=57377

Power Consumption: 53A @ 120V AC (@ 4 Ohms) / 25.5A @ 240V AC (@ 4 Ohms)

I'll say it again....these things are LOUD!!! SUPER LOUD. I don't know how much we can reduce the noise with some good low dBA fans, but damn, it's like two microwaves on when this thing is powered up.

you definitely have to have it in an enclosed location, or separate from the listening room.
post #1317 of 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

Why d1ck around with a V5001 when they sell a V6001 for
a few bucks more ? /jk

http://www.directproaudio.com/produc...directid=57377

Power Consumption: 53A @ 120V AC (@ 4 Ohms) / 25.5A @ 240V AC (@ 4 Ohms)

No doubt! That looks like an even better deal than the V5001. Hopefully the test turns out well.
post #1318 of 1917
Well thanks for the responses, but I guess my question till stands. My Brother-in-Law is an electrician, so I have no issues getting a dedicated circuit ran. I just need to know if this thing is set up for 220V power, as seeing even that will take a 30 Amp circuit according to the specs. I do not even know if a 120V-50 Amp receptical is even made, but with the 45 Amp peak rating (@ 125V) and the normal 20% headroom on the breaker this would be closer to a 60 Amp circuit.

So just by looking at the specs it would seem I would be looking at a 220V-30 Amp dedicated circuit to avoid tripping the breaker everytime I played a movie too loud.

Also, I assume the voltage sags would be eliminated if I was supplying the proper circuit as indicated above?
post #1319 of 1917
post #1320 of 1917
What I have noticed with amplifiers is that every design has
compromises. You may look at something and scratch your head
and ask why? Sometimes a person can do a mod to improve something, often the mod is too complex to execute.

Example;

re: loud fans

Good news, people have done fan mods on their proamps;

* replace the fans with low noise fans but often the low noise
comes from reduced fan speed which may yield lower CFM than
the original design - doesn't mean it's a bad thing depending on
how you use the amplifier.

* installation of resistors on the stock fans to reduce the fan
speed, same CFM issues.


re: funny power cables on high powered amplifiers

I have seen this on the QSC RMX4050/5050 and others.
Beefy amplifiers with stupid AC cords and/or recommendations
to operate the amplifier on a low amperage circuit when their
own spec sheets imply more is drawn under some test condition.
/whatever

Arn't you suppse to trust manufacturers to produce a proper product, perhaps 'plug and play', but then you find out that
something is fishy depending on how you operate the amplifier
ie, if you play music, it's ok, but if you play test tones problems
may manifest, or if you drive low impedance subwoofers with
music, you are at the performance envelope and stuff may
happen; circuit breakers trip prematurely, amplifier thermal
overload in seconds, etc.

When you see these suspicous AC power cords on high powered
amplifiers or proper cords but to be used on a 20A circuit,
you wonder if the amplifier would perform better if the electrical
setup was better.

If the V5001 has any chance to succeed using the 'rms test method' it needs more than 110VAC / 20A circuit. This amplifier
would be nicer if it had dual 110VAC / 20A power cords, perhaps
dual toroid design where each toroid gets it's own electrical service.
Else, you need to operate this on ~220VAC / 20A service, otherwise
expect 2kw rms not 4kw rms [assuming it can do 4kw rms]. If
you pay for 4kw rms and only get 2kw rms, is that a rip off ?
Not necessarily, analyze the amplifier from a dollar per watt point
of view. If the amplifier is low in cost it can be a nice snag even if
it performs less than advertised.

I guess the first thing I would do if I owned a V5001 is to open
it up and analyze the design. Look for simple things like the
transformer, heatsink, and number of power transistors used,
measure rail voltage, get a gut feeling and determine if it's capable
of doing more if you feed it > 110VAC / 20A circuit. If you think
so, modify the power cord to use the 30A plug assuming internal
wiring is not anemic. Just remember the warranty issues when
modding your amplifiers. Is 110VAC / 30A enough? You would have
to test the amplifier to see how it behaves before going higher.

125V / 50A available. /muah



One idea.

Mod whatever amplifier with the beefy plug, 125VAC, 30A or 50A plug. Beefy wires and plugs
are not the concern, the real issue is the circuit breaker. If you have a dedicated line
installed, the wiring and plug can support up to 50A, but you don't have to install
a 50A breaker. You can install a 20A breaker, if it trips during normal use, upgrade to 30A breaker.
The heavy duty wires and plugs don't care. You can climb the circuit breaker ladder until you
stop false triggering the breaker ----- or until the amplifier smokes because the design didn't self protect ---
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