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Measuring Amplifiers - Page 20

post #571 of 1913
4/23/08 at 5:23pm
Thread Starter 
jimstewart has shipped me his brand new Dayton HPSA1000-R subwoofer amplifier. This ia 2 space rack mount amplifier brought to us by our friends at Parts Express. The part number is 300-810. Here are the published specifications from the PE catalog.

Specifications:

Measured power output: 512 watts RMS into 8 ohms @ 0.09% THD,
1,024 watts RMS into 4 ohms @ 0.15% THD
Signal to noise ratio: 98 dB (A-weighted)
Parametric EQ: Frequency: 18-80 Hz, Level: -14.5 to +6 dB, Bandwidth: .1-1 Low pass crossover: 30-200 Hz
Phase: 0-180°, continuously adjustable
Dimensions: 17-1/2" W x 4" H (2RU without feet) x 14" D
Power requirements: 110/220 VAC, 60/50 Hz
Dimensions (with feet, without rack ears): 17-1/2" W x 3-7/8" H x 14" D Dimensions (without feet, with rack ears): 19" W x 3-1/2" H x 14" D.

Below are the pictures of the amplifier, front & rear, and my measured performance of the amplifier.

Chuck
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post #572 of 1913
4/23/08 at 5:31pm
Thread Starter 
Front view HPSA1000-R



Rear View HPSA1000-R



Measurements




One thing to realize. This amplifier is a dedicated subwoofer amplifier with very limited frequency response. That is why you see a rolloff at 200 and 400 Hz. Here is a link to the PE page about this amp. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...10&ctab=4#Tabs It has 27 reviews and an average 4 1/2 stars out of 5. Interesting........
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post #573 of 1913
4/23/08 at 5:40pm
Well...I'll keep my Buttkicker.
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post #574 of 1913
4/23/08 at 5:58pm
If the input signal dedicated is 100hz and below (typical AVR sub out), I guess the numbers would look better
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post #575 of 1913
4/23/08 at 6:47pm
Would be good to see a master list with all the pro amps tested so far by the known "testers".

This way rotten units would be weeded out. I suspect there are quite a few amps masquerading as high output ,not even delivering 80% of the rated power.

In the case of a Buttkicker or Behringer A500 and company,the specs could be forgiven,they are sold for peanuts.
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post #576 of 1913
4/23/08 at 6:50pm
Thank you so much Chuck for doing this test. I appreciate each and every one. And thanks a lot jimstewart for sending your new amp to Chuck. Much appreciated.

I'd actually take that 8ohms spec vs real world test...but it fails the 4ohm test miserably. Geeze.
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post #577 of 1913
4/23/08 at 6:55pm
The Dayton crumbles like a dry leaf ...and we all know it is at 4 Ohms where it should deliver the goods. I do not even want to see this thing measured at 2 Ohms...fuses go POP or it shuts down.
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post #578 of 1913
4/23/08 at 7:00pm
Quote:


In the case of a Buttkicker or Behringer A500 and company,the specs could be forgiven,they are sold for peanuts.

In the case of the Buttkicker...it's not even sold as an audio/sub amp!
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post #579 of 1913
4/23/08 at 7:06pm
holy crap, 4 ohms is horrible.....very weird I run two of my Q18s with it and I have run the other two Q18s on the QSC 1850 bridged....I didnt find a huge descrepancy in SPL but then again I didnt measure it.

Then again my IB doesnt need a ton of power so even 580 Watts drives 2 Q18s adequately.

Im upgrading to Xti4000 once I sell the Dayton amp (plate version).....but now I can not sell it here
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post #580 of 1913
4/23/08 at 7:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey View Post

Well...I'll keep my Buttkicker.

Mind you the Buttkicker was performing at 14% distortion where-as the Dayton was putting out .33% distortion. Match the distortion numbers and the gap will be closer.
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post #581 of 1913
4/23/08 at 8:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

Mind you the Buttkicker was performing at 14% distortion where-as the Dayton was putting out .33% distortion. Match the distortion numbers and the gap will be closer.

As I'm aware...but the BK isn't even even a sub amp, and I got it for 1/4 the Dayton sells for. Like I said...I'll keep it. .
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post #582 of 1913
4/23/08 at 8:26pm
I would like to hear dayton's response on this. I can't help but wonder at almost 50% under spec, maybe the unit is defective?
I'm gonna call PE's tech line tommorow and do some Q & A. It would be in daytons best interest to respond to this ASAP.
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post #583 of 1913
4/23/08 at 8:40pm
Quote:
.... Tech support, may I help you.......




Quote:
........ 5 8 0 .........

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post #584 of 1913
4/23/08 at 8:52pm
"Hell O dis is Day Ton...how may I help you ?"

Yes my brand spanking new sub amp rated at a spanking 1KW was measured a shade over half the rating! WHY???

" ... "

Hello anybody there?

" ... "
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post #585 of 1913
4/24/08 at 12:03am
Yes i have the Dayton, I use it in *ohm mode and was looking at an amp that would put out a clean low distortilon signal to around 500w, it does that nicely and not too far from thier specs, I am using it driving 2 peerless 12 inch subs in a sealed enclosure, (dial set above 5-6 is way to much / exagerated bass) But I can't argue with the test figures for 4 ohms.

What would the Dayton amp perform like at 240V 10amp (the way I use mine)

And in 4 ohm mode is it possible that it did not go into its high power mode when tested, its class G circuitry.. Just a though from a noob
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post #586 of 1913
4/24/08 at 5:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trofius View Post

And in 4 ohm mode is it possible that it did not go into its high power mode when tested, its class G circuitry.. Just a though from a noob

Here is what appears on the PE web site:

Finally, a freestanding high-power subwoofer amplifier designed for the DIYer, installer, and systems integrator. This unique mono subwoofer amplifier delivers the raw power of a pro-sound amp, but with the features and flexibility of a dedicated subwoofer amplifier. It can be configured for stacking with other audio components, and includes removable ears for mounting in standard audio racks (2RU). The stealthy pop-out knobs on the front panel make adjustments easy, while minimizing the risk of accidental disturbance. The subdued brushed black aluminum faceplate allows this amp to cosmetically blend with any type of audio gear.

From a performance standpoint, an adjustable low-pass crossover, adjustable phase, and parametric EQ band allow you to tweak the sound of your sub to match your room. Sophisticated soft clip circuitry provides cleaner transient peaks while protecting your driver from overexcursion. Auto on/off or triggered 12V input allows easy integration into automated systems. Accepts RCA line-level inputs, includes insulated binding posts for the speaker outputs, and accepts a 12V trigger via a 3.5 mm mini-jack.
Class AB output stage for powerful, clean output
Patented tracking downconverter power supply increases headroom and efficiency
Low frequency parametric EQ allows you to boost or adjust the sound to your room
Advanced soft clip circuitry improves headroom and protects woofers
Triggered or auto on/off and adjustable phase for easy integration into any system
Perfect for powering built-in or infinite baffle subwoofer installations
Low heat emission - no fan required for most applications
1,000 watts RMS output into 4 ohm mono load
Five year warranty
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post #587 of 1913
4/24/08 at 6:02am
one word..........NUTS
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post #588 of 1913
4/24/08 at 6:05am
I was going to post something else here......but everything I can think of is just a string of expletives.




I have 4 tempest x 15.....im gonna give them....150 watts each......f*&^ing LAME!!!!



Some one from PE needs to contact me(I will be contacting them) and make this right..... One of three things is going to happen

1. Im gonna get my money back (something needs to be done for the money i have spent shipping this thing around)
2. They need to send me another amp so I will actually have a 1000watts of power like I payed for.
3. The charges will be denied and I will have a FREE 580 watt amp.


Sent amp back and was charged a restocking fee by my beloved PARTEXPRESS
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post #589 of 1913
4/24/08 at 6:56am
Quote:


1. Im gonna get my money back (something needs to be done for the money i have spent shipping this thing around)
2. They need to send me another amp so I will actually have a 1000watts of power like I payed for.
3. The charges will be denied and I will have a FREE 580 watt amp.

Tell me your results because Im emailing them too!
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post #590 of 1913
4/24/08 at 7:14am
Odd that this thing does Ok at 8 ohms but fails so miserably at 4 ohms.......could this be due to a weak power supply?
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post #591 of 1913
4/24/08 at 7:19am
Quote:


Five year warranty.

If I can show them I only get 580 Watts at 4 Ohms can I declare my amp broken and get my money back or will they just keep sending me new amps under warranty
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post #592 of 1913
4/24/08 at 7:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cluelessngr View Post

Odd that this thing does Ok at 8 ohms but fails so miserably at 4 ohms.......could this be due to a weak power supply?

Maybe it'll do better at 240v.
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post #593 of 1913
4/24/08 at 8:15am
Quote:


http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...10&ctab=4#Tabs It has 27 reviews and an average 4 1/2 stars out of 5. Interesting........

Well the reviews are suspect........try this, write a positive review for the product and it appears instantly...write a negative review and guess what? You got it nothing appears. While the failings of the amp itself rest squarely on Dayton's shoulders, what good are the PE reviews if they are being....cough cough......editted?
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post #594 of 1913
4/24/08 at 8:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chasw98 View Post

Here is what appears on the PE web site:

Finally, a freestanding high-power subwoofer amplifier designed for the DIYer, installer, and systems integrator. This unique mono subwoofer amplifier delivers the raw power of a pro-sound amp, but with the features and flexibility of a dedicated subwoofer amplifier. It can be configured for stacking with other audio components, and includes removable ears for mounting in standard audio racks (2RU). The stealthy pop-out knobs on the front panel make adjustments easy, while minimizing the risk of accidental disturbance. The subdued brushed black aluminum faceplate allows this amp to cosmetically blend with any type of audio gear.

From a performance standpoint, an adjustable low-pass crossover, adjustable phase, and parametric EQ band allow you to tweak the sound of your sub to match your room. Sophisticated soft clip circuitry provides cleaner transient peaks while protecting your driver from overexcursion. Auto on/off or triggered 12V input allows easy integration into automated systems. Accepts RCA line-level inputs, includes insulated binding posts for the speaker outputs, and accepts a 12V trigger via a 3.5 mm mini-jack.
Class AB output stage for powerful, clean output
Patented tracking downconverter power supply increases headroom and efficiency
Low frequency parametric EQ allows you to boost or adjust the sound to your room
Advanced soft clip circuitry improves headroom and protects woofers
Triggered or auto on/off and adjustable phase for easy integration into any system
Perfect for powering built-in or infinite baffle subwoofer installations
Low heat emission - no fan required for most applications
1,000 watts RMS output into 4 ohm mono load
Five year warranty



*Class AB output stage for powerful, clean output
* Patented tracking downconverter power supply increases

Class H, G, or tracking downconverter can have an AB
output stage.

The word tracking downconverter, IMO, seems unique to
Bob Carver as he describes this in his Sunfire white papers,
later he got a patent for a tracking power supply.

Over the years more and more products have been using
this method.

I have told people in this forum that it's a great idea,
better than class H or G but execution of the idea is
difficult and even the 'big boys' in pro audio have failed
to execute the concept well, thanks to Bink and others
who scrutinized.

This PE amplifier using the tracking power supply, if true,
is just another example of poor execution of a great idea,
but no worries, Made is China is no worse than Made in
Germany
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post #595 of 1913
4/24/08 at 9:10am
We are analyzing the test results that were posted above.

We need detailed information regarding the test conditions.

This amp is driven by sophisticated circuitry designed by Bob Carver.

Therefore, how the tests were performed and the equipment used is critical in evaluating the results that were posted; which are contrary to our experience with this amplifier.

We have sold thousands of these units and customers have been very satisfied with their performance and value. Thank you for your support.

Rich Taylor
Dayton Audio
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post #596 of 1913
4/24/08 at 9:20am
Thank you Rich and Dayton Audio for posting!
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post #597 of 1913
4/24/08 at 9:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaytonAudio View Post

We are analyzing the test results that were posted above.

We need detailed information regarding the test conditions. Rich Taylor
Dayton Audio

Chas mentions some about his procedure on the first page and then here and there in other posts. Here is a post of his from the first page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chasw98 View Post

Here is a list of the test equipment being used to perform the measurements.

The AC voltage must be constant and able to be regulated to compensate for line voltage variations. I am using a Superior Electric 136B Powerstat Variac. It is rated at 0-140 Volts AC and 22 amps continuous current. I have also built a digital voltmeter and ammeter to be able to adjust the AC voltage under load and measure the AC current being drawn by the DUT (Device Under Test). The voltmeter is capable of reading up to 600 VAC and the ammeter has the capability to read 50 amps AC current.



I have built a load bank and a load bank controller that I will be using to test the output of the amplifiers into constant known impedances. It is capable of switching between 2 ohms, 4 ohms, 8 ohms, and a totally open circuit. The power capabilities of the load start at 3500 watts RMS and have the capability of going up to 14,000 watts for checking those monster bridged mono units. The unit is water cooled.




The test equipment being used to generate the sine waves and measure the distortion are all made by Tektronix. I am using a SG505 sine wave oscillator that is capable of .0008% distortion from 10 Hz to 100 KHz, a SC502 15 MHz oscilloscope to view the distortion components of the DUT, an AA501 audio analyzer that has the capability of reading below .002% THD+N, a DC503A frequency counter that will measure from .01 Hz to 125 MHz. I am also using a Phillips PM3218 2 channel 35 MHz delayed time base oscilloscope to view the output waveform directly from the amplifier.



I am also using some switching components and a dual channel signal pad for setting levels on the amplifiers. The switching unit and the pad do not add more than .0002% THD+N to the overall measurements. All the interconnect cables are made by Pomona Electronics.




Chuck
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post #598 of 1913
4/24/08 at 9:39am
I guess I will ship my Velodyne sc-1250 amp to Chuck and see what the true numbers are there too!
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post #599 of 1913
4/24/08 at 9:40am
Why stop with PE? Why not take Binks amp tests and
contact almost every manufacturer on why their amps fail ?

Because these manufacturers have different testing criteria

Ask 1000 people do to an amplifier test and you get 1000
different results

The trick is to find a test that makes sense and everyone agrees.

Guess what? Nobody seems to agree on what makes
sense.

What do you do?

You follow Binks methodology as it makes the most
sense from an electronics point of view and you can add
to it.
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post #600 of 1913
4/24/08 at 9:44am
Bob Carver knows amps,like few...I doubt he would try to pass a 600W for 1KW...
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