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Measuring Amplifiers - Page 21

post #601 of 1913
4/24/08 at 9:52am
Quote:


You follow Binks methodology

did they test the dayton amp with Binks methodology?
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post #602 of 1913
4/24/08 at 10:13am
Methodology seems a bit of a moot point. If the method was flawed why do other amps produce what they claim or at least near to it. If nothing less it gives us an apples to apples mark for comparison purposes.
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post #603 of 1913
4/24/08 at 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cluelessngr View Post

Methodology seems a bit of a moot point. If the method was flawed why do other amps produce what they claim or at least near to it. If nothing less it gives us an apples to apples mark for comparison purposes.

Do you have a list of amplifiers tested so we can check it out?
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post #604 of 1913
4/24/08 at 10:28am
I have a Sunfire Signature Sub that I can pull the amp out of for testing (I need to refinish the enclosure anyway). They claim 2700 Watts into 4ΩI can also send a BASH 500. What's the turn around time?

I have a feeling that in the end most amps to be tested cannot deliver there rated power into Chucks easy to drive test loads(even for 30 seconds) just because they lack the proper power supply to do so. and the EP2500 will emerge to be known as a solid value among low cost HT sub amps.


2700 watts no power limiting transformer
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post #605 of 1913
4/24/08 at 10:50am
quote " Why stop with PE? Why not take Binks amp tests and
contact almost every manufacturer on why their amps fail ?....
Guess what? Nobody seems to agree on what makes
sense.
What do you do?
You follow Binks methodology as it makes the most
sense from an electronics point of view and you can add
to it."

I don't really find this comment helpful or constructive.

There are many different ways to talk about car power.
Torque,horsepower,Brake horse power,crank horse power.
None of these number very more than about 30% from one to the next.
More over we are only discussing a PE amp here not all amps.
When compared to other amps that have been tested with the same methodologies it fails miserably.

Lets please not talk about everything thats wrong in the world....let keep it about this amp and these tests....
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post #606 of 1913
4/24/08 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

2700 watts no power limiting transformer


That's a great pic, can I use it for my amp pic collection?

Hard to see, is the AC mains coming in from the black, red, and white wire?
(gray goo?) .. if yes, it's reveals something .. very .. interesting.
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post #607 of 1913
4/24/08 at 11:18am
"2700 watts no power limiting transformer"

Lets see, 110 VAC would get you 155 V rails, for 3 kW into 4 ohms; sounds about right.

Seems like a good concept to me.

Seriously, why not just rectify the mains directly and leave out the weakest, most expensive link of the chain, if you can get by safety regulations.
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post #608 of 1913
4/24/08 at 11:28am
Noah,
I agree. Obviously enough to have bought one

Now I know what execution of said concept can leave to be desired
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post #609 of 1913
4/24/08 at 11:29am
Did anyone else notice that the FR was down 15db at 10hz on the Dayton? That doesn't seem like very good response for a sub amplifier.

Would anyone be willing to see a CE4000 get tested? I know that there's already tests on them but I'd like to see what one would do with Chas's tests. I would be willing to send him one of mine if i could get some help paying the shipping and insurance costs.
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post #610 of 1913
4/24/08 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"2700 watts no power limiting transformer"

Lets see, 110 VAC would get you 155 V rails, for 3 kW into 4 ohms; sounds about right.

Seems like a good concept to me.

Seriously, why not just rectify the mains directly and leave out the weakest, most expensive link of the chain, if you can get by safety regulations.

Are you sure you get rails or just rail ?
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post #611 of 1913
4/24/08 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimstewart View Post

There are many different ways to take about car power.
Torque,horsepower,Brake horse power,crank horse power.
None of these number very more than about 30% from one to the next.

BHP and flywheel/crank HP are the same. Crank HP is just a more American way of saying it. BHP actually refers to a brake dyno that measures the engine out of the car and thus why it's Brake HP. The best way to measure is at the wheels on a dyno because that's all that really matters, however, there's more than one kind of dyno machine and each will give different numbers. Then you have to factor in air temp, humidity, smoothing factors, and quite a few other things.

In the end, 5% matters and people will tinker and tune for hours just to get a couple %, let alone 30%! 30% is the difference between buying one car, or the other by a different manufacture. The same goes for amps.

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post #612 of 1913
4/24/08 at 12:37pm
Looney you missed the point of my post entirely.....as your comments show. In fact you just got into another separate and even less related semantics argument. (which is what I was asking you not to do)

So to reiterate my point.

Although getting a general consensus amongst the public is almost never possible the amp as tested is so far out of spec that regardless of how it was tested you couldn't fudge it into spec.(please spare us all the few cases in which for a millionth of a second my laptop speaker amp could make 1000watts comments most of us know, and it doesn't advance the discussion)
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post #613 of 1913
4/24/08 at 12:59pm
Quote:


Did anyone else notice that the FR was down 15db at 10hz on the Dayton? That doesn't seem like very good response for a sub amplifier

That is because it has a hard wired high pass filter at 18Hz. You have to open the box and change the capacitors to remove it. Lots of plate amps have that filter because you can blow your driver without a protection circuit. with pro amps people use EQing to protect under 20Hz.

15 Hz, isnt something that a lot of people care about unless you are on here so I dont find it strange at all.
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post #614 of 1913
4/24/08 at 1:01pm
Quote:


None of these number very more than about 30% from one to the next.

True, the new shelby 500 GT really has 430 HP and not 500!
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post #615 of 1913
4/24/08 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Did anyone else notice that the FR was down 15db at 10hz on the Dayton? That doesn't seem like very good response for a sub amplifier.

Would anyone be willing to see a CE4000 get tested? I know that there's already tests on them but I'd like to see what one would do with Chas's tests. I would be willing to send him one of mine if i could get some help paying the shipping and insurance costs.

I'd chip in a few $$ through paypal for such a gesture. The binks test wasn't as comprehensive as Chuck's would be, I think.
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post #616 of 1913
4/24/08 at 1:03pm
Quote:


I'd chip in a few $$ through paypal for such a gesture. The binks test wasn't as comprehensive as Chuck's would be, I think.

Im sending the velodyne SC-1250 to chuck next week...I will take some $$$ to help cover my shipping costs
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post #617 of 1913
4/24/08 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

I'd chip in a few $$ through paypal for such a gesture. The binks test wasn't as comprehensive as Chuck's would be, I think.

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post #618 of 1913
4/24/08 at 1:23pm
As a follow-up, I'd like to say I'm concerned by some here that immediately assume this amplifier is bad, especially in light of the fact that this is a tracking amplifier that's designed to deliver high voltage into reactive loads (ie, loudspeakers). They are not optimized for fully resistive load banks. So much of this talk in this thread is not relevant to driving woofers. These hi-tech amps can put a ton of power into the actual woofer and cannot be fully tested using standard non-inductive resistant loads. That being said, we'll post additional information as soon as we complete our internal testing.

Our ultimate goal here at Dayton Audio is to provide audio enthusiasts with products that meet and exceed expectation, and we apply that to our customer service as well. Thanks again.

Rich Taylor
Dayton Audio
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post #619 of 1913
4/24/08 at 1:24pm
"Are you sure you get rails or just rail ?"

I thought about it enough to be pretty sure that each half-cycle is 155 V peak.

It will take a lot of filter capacitance though.
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post #620 of 1913
4/24/08 at 1:25pm
Dan,

"I agree. Obviously enough to have bought one

Now I know what execution of said concept can leave to be desired"

Gotcha
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post #621 of 1913
4/24/08 at 1:44pm
As was said there are amps that will deliver better performance into a reactive load than a resistive load. IE: a resistive load is a good test yes, but still not the best indication of performance.
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post #622 of 1913
4/24/08 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaytonAudio View Post

[/i] So much of this talk in this thread is not relevant to driving woofers. These hi-tech amps can put a ton of power into the actual woofer and cannot be fully tested using standard non-inductive resistant loads.

Mr. Taylor makes a good point. Does the Binks test and/or Charle's tests really give us bass-heads the "under real life loads" test results we're looking for?
I know thylantr has always looked for results more inline with full load, full power as resistive loads would show but can we get away with power if that power only has to be full power, part of the time in short bursts and as the inductive/reactive load varies during use?
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post #623 of 1913
4/24/08 at 1:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaytonAudio View Post

As a follow-up, I'd like to say I'm concerned by some here that immediately assume this amplifier is bad, especially in light of the fact that this is a tracking amplifier that's designed to deliver high voltage into reactive loads (ie, loudspeakers). They are not optimized for fully resistive load banks. So much of this talk in this thread is not relevant to driving woofers. These hi-tech amps can put a ton of power into the actual woofer and cannot be fully tested using standard non-inductive resistant loads. That being said, we'll post additional information as soon as we complete our internal testing.

Our ultimate goal here at Dayton Audio is to provide audio enthusiasts with products that meet and exceed expectation, and we apply that to our customer service as well. Thanks again.

Rich Taylor
Dayton Audio

That's the craziest message I've seen in a while, where to
begin ?


Quote:


Measured power output: 512 watts RMS into 8 ohms @ 0.09% THD,
1,024 watts RMS into 4 ohms @ 0.15% THD
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post #624 of 1913
4/24/08 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post


What? He only tested the 4ohm spec at 120 and 96. Chuck tests at 2ohm channel, 4ohm channel, 8ohm channel, 4ohm bridged, and 8ohm bridged where applicable.
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post #625 of 1913
4/24/08 at 2:36pm
Thy has some issues with his testing conditions, and I agree with him, Chuck uses a variac to hold his line voltage steady, this is not a real world scenario, people will have shut downs from line loss without the variac. Also, I found out after some of the tests that Chuck will test one channel at a time in certain tests and in others he will drive them simultaneously, this is an example of inconsistent testing. I'd like to clarify that these differences may or may not amount to much, depending on circumstances, they could matter a great deal, in others, they may matter very little. I appreciate what Chuck is doing though, I like that he tests various loads out.
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post #626 of 1913
4/24/08 at 2:57pm
Old news. If people want to get up to speed, start with page 1 of
this thread and continue forward
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post #627 of 1913
4/24/08 at 3:00pm
Don't get me wrong. If I believed every claim from a manufacturer of ANY product I wouldn't be alive today. The same principle applies to amps. Of course, amp manufacturers are going to use performance data to make their product look good and they aren't above inventing new data if it will show their product to be as good or better than anyone else. Knowing this we then turn to people we can trust and testing methods we can understand and can use to compare one item to another of same kind.
Charles and earlier Binks supplied a rock solid protocol for amp testing. Maybe the methods weren't as sophisticated as the manufacturers would have liked but for us here at the DIY forums there's nothing better. I like Charle's testing methods and his own basic honesty in reporting the results. Where else have you ever received so much and been asked to give so little.
If Dayton and/or other manufacturers can show how their products meet their advertised claims, we're here to watch and listen.
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post #628 of 1913
4/24/08 at 3:26pm
Well said.
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post #629 of 1913
4/24/08 at 4:16pm
Quote:


Thy has some issues with his testing conditions, and I agree with him

Of course he does and I agree with him too...but that doesn't change the fact that Binks test, while consistent across all the amps he tested, only does 20-1kHz-20kHz at 4ohms/channel, 120 VAC and 96 VAC.

And we already know that an amp without PFC (most of them) will suffer quite a bit with line sag, so might as well test amps under best case scenario. So why bother purposefully y testing them at a lower line voltage? Can one not make an educated guess as to the output at a given line voltage using the output from the 120 test?
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post #630 of 1913
4/24/08 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Of course he does and I agree with him too...but that doesn't change the fact that Binks test, while consistent across all the amps he tested, only does 20-1kHz-20kHz at 4ohms/channel, 120 VAC and 96 VAC.

//////// Reality Check #1 /////////

I'll give you clues why Bink didn't do a 2 ohm/ch amplifier tests.

Chuck said;

Quote:
EP1500 test:

Just a note..... After finishing the measurements at 4 ohms, I used a non contact infra red thermometer to measure the temperature on the case where the heat sink is bolted to the cover. The thermometer was reading between 110 degrees and 115 degrees. This is with an unmodified fan system, BTW.

+

Just an update.............. I am in the process of testing at a 2 ohm load, both channels driven, at 1 KHz. In 20 minutes of test time, I have blown the dedicated 20 amp breaker 5 times attempting to get the amp up to clipping and just take a reading of voltage and distortion. In that time the case of the amp has registered 125 degrees fahrenheit on the top cover. So far it will only do approx 500 watts at .5% distortion. I am going to let it cool for a few hours and rerun the test to see if it will meet specs. Very disappointing so far.

+

It took less than 30 seconds for the amp to go from 70 degrees fahrenheit to 110 degrees when under power.

+

The circuit breaker on the amp kept blowing just as I would aproach ful power in 4 ohm bridge mono.


re: EP2500 test @ 4 ohms

Some interesting notes. The digital ammeter connected to the amplifier registered 17.2 amps at full power 1 KHz. The thermometer registered 158 degrees fahrenheit on the top case of the cover where it is attached to the heat sink. It was cookin'.

+

these amplifiers will not run with a sine wave at full power at 1 KHz for more than 5 minutes under any load, 2, 4, 8, or bridged! They are just not made to run like that.

+

The amp would only run for less than 20 seconds in that mode with a pure sine wave!
[bridged mode @ 4ohms]


//////// Reality Check #2 /////////

1. When I tested my PLX @ 4 ohms bridged and pushed it hard, it went
up in smoke.

2. When I tested my Crest 10001 @ 2 ohms bridged [yes it's rated for this],
it ran like a champ all day, but after pushing it harder, it went up in smoke.

//////// Reality Check #3 /////////

I would post more comments made by Chuck by I know people won't read
it. In fact, I don't think many people read Chucks comments, rather they
just looked at his charts and said .... Amazing..!

Want proof ?

Right after Chuck tested the EP1500 and EP2500 and he posted those
comments, it seems that nobody digested the data properly. Some people
replied as follows;

Quote:
These tests are very impressive, Chuck. Those Behringers seem to be made from very hardy stuff. They are really amazing values, especially the 2500.

+

Quote:
nice indeed Chuck!!! Very impressive and more impressive in person!!


Ask yourself is it really amazing?


//////// Reality Check #4 /////////

--> Why didn't Bink do a 2 ohm/ch amplifier tests.

I think the politically correct answer is there wasn't enough time to
test all those amplifiers in one day.

But I do think that if Bink attempted a 2 ohm/ch test, you might find some
unhappy owners going home with blown amplifiers


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