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XA2 Bass Management Fix confirmed!! - Page 5

post #121 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by teddis01 View Post

Hi,
Well i changed all my XA2 ( at 1.6 ) to the post.
1) Digital Out SPDIF needs to be set to PCM
2) Digital Out HDMI needs to be set to AUTO
3) Set all speakers to SMALL

I am using a Denon 5700 amp. When I run the toshiba balance test all 5 speakers tone, except the sub. I set all speakers to small. On my denon in ext in mode i raised all the individual channels to 10db, this gets it closer to normal pink noise volume. any ideas ?

When i switch spdif to bitstream DD and DTS light up my sub big time...so I know it works fine.

thanks,

Don't use the tones in the XA2 (or in your receiver) as a reference - they are worthless. You need to use either the DVE disc or THX tones from a disc with them (Star Wars series, et al).
post #122 of 455
MuaneyM,
When you refer to bass management being turned on, are you referring to the reducing of speakers to small? On my Denon 3803, I do this but don't see anything that refers specifically to "bass management". I tried this yesterday and when I played U-571 over diff scenes, there was a fuller bass to the torpedoes and depth charges that wasn't there with the bitstream. Is this what you are talking about?
post #123 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayray View Post

When you refer to bass management being turned on, are you referring to the reducing of speakers to small?

Yes. When you set your speakers to 'SMALL', the device (either player or receiver) applies a 2-way crossover to the signal and routes the lower frequencies to the subwoofer. When they are set to 'LARGE', the signal is passed through to the individual speakers in full-range.

The 'perfect' system has all 7 of the main channels equipped with full-range speakers, then a subwoofer dedicated to the LFE content that is capable of an extra 10 dB of output. However, most people don't have this type of equipment, so Bass Management is a work-around that has been defined for home theater systems. It allows you to use the subwoofer for both the LFE signal AND the low-end for the rest of the speakers.

Make sense?
post #124 of 455
Perfectly I did notice a big diff with the PCM output yesterday but now it is very clear. Now I can watch all of my hd dvds for another reason
thanks MauneyM

John
post #125 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzzin View Post

Just use the analogs for SD DVDs as well. As long as you've calibrated your source, you should get the same performance from the analog outs as you would a digital output. As far as your cable goes, I don't see how any of this affects your cable optical out. It has nothing to do with the XA2, why would you have to change anything for your cable/sat box? And for the additional 5 dB boost, if you can't boost this from your receiver, just set all speakers in the XA2 at -5 dB.

I do not have the HD XA2. I have been researching to make sure that it would work well with my system before I purchased. I also set my price point for buying at $500.00. If you are changing your speaker settings (only way I can get extra 5db of boost) to get the levels correct for the HD XA2 then will your speaker levels not be off when listening to any other source?

If I use the 5.1 analog out on the HD AX2 to my receiver then when playing an SD DVD I will only get 5.1 DD even if the DVD has DTS audio on it, correct? That is why I was thinking of using 5.1 analog for HD DVD and optic for SD DVD play back, but to do that I would have to change speaker settings, receiver settings and HD XA2 settings, correct? That is why I was talking about installing macro's on my remote to make all of these changes with one button push. Is there a better way? What am I not understanding?
post #126 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

I do not have the HD XA2. I have been researching to make sure that it would work well with my system before I purchased. I also set my price point for buying at $500.00. If you are changing your speaker settings (only way I can get extra 5db of boost) to get the levels correct for the HD XA2 then will your speaker levels not be off when listening to any other source?

Try this:
> Balance your receiver's speaker levels using a digital source - it doesn't matter where it comes from.
> Apply the +10 dB LFE boost to your analog ins on the receiver
> In the XA2 5.1 menu, set the sub level to '0', and each of the other levels to '-5' - this should get you fairly close to balanced.
> Now use disc-based tones to tweak the levels, using the XA2 level controls.

You should now be able to switch back and forth without changing levels (assuming that your receiver only adds the 10 dB boost to the analog input).

I'd like to know if this works for you with your equipment.
post #127 of 455
"As far as your cable goes, I don't see how any of this affects your cable optical out. It has nothing to do with the XA2,"

Yikes - I've been so fixated on getting proper bass from the XA2 (still waiting for my f/w disk), I completely forgot about other sources.

So how do you deal with the bass level differences between the XA2 and other sources?
post #128 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

So how do you deal with the bass level differences between the XA2 and other sources?

The AVRs that do not re-digitize the analog multichannel inputs don't really have an auto-cal for them -- you do it manually (giving opportunity to boost the bass at the sub amp gain control).

But when you select a normal 2 channel or S/PDIF input the AVR can do its auto cal thingy (YPAO for a Yamaha, etc). Doing that AFTER the manual multichannel cal gives the auto cal a chance to lower the sub/LFE channel gain inside the AVR so the bass stays calibrated.
post #129 of 455
Keep in mind that many receiver's input trim is "global" and any changes on any of them will result a change on the other as well, regardless of types like analog digital or MCH analog ins. My BA receiver does just like that, and not because it redigitize the input, or because it has auto cal, it simply was designed as such. Many Denons and Yamahas have separate input trim memories that can be preset or automatically stored with each input. A desirable feature in many cases.
post #130 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Yes. When you set your speakers to 'SMALL', the device (either player or receiver) applies a 2-way crossover to the signal and routes the lower frequencies to the subwoofer. When they are set to 'LARGE', the signal is passed through to the individual speakers in full-range.
Make sense?

I have some questions:

[1] I understand that to bypass bass management, I need to set all speakers to "Large", but do I do it only in the XA2, or also in my AVR?

[2] What setting will invoke bass management, beside changing any of the speaker size to "small"? In other words, is it like this: "large" speakers = no BM, if any of the speaker is set to "small", you get BM?

Thanks very much,
post #131 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalat View Post

[1] I understand that to bypass bass management, I need to set all speakers to "Large", but do I do it only in the XA2, or also in my AVR?

That depends on your receiver. Some will allow BM with 5.1 analog inputs, while some will not. In general, though, if you don't want bass management, then you should have all of your speaker sizes set to LARGE everywhere in your system. Under any circumstances, you should only enable BM in one place. Trying to cascade two crossovers is a bad idea for a number of reasons.

Quote:


[2] What setting will invoke bass management, beside changing any of the speaker size to "small"? In other words, is it like this: "large" speakers = no BM, if any of the speaker is set to "small", you get BM?

BM can be applied to any combination of speakers, or none at all. A good example would be for a system where the two stereo L/R mains are full-range, but the center and surrounds are small satellite-style. In this case, someone might want to leave the L/R fronts as LARGE, running full-range, while enabling BM only for the center and surrounds.

Thus, if any speaker is set to SMALL, then BM is applied to that speaker.

HOWEVER, I observed some level issues when I applied BM to only the center/surrounds in my XA2. The net effect was that the center and surround main levels dropped by just over 1 dB. Granted, this is not a big difference, but it's enough to leave me questioning if BM works properly in the XA2 when applied to only part of the system. When applied to ALL of the speakers or NONE of the speakers, the levels were right where they should be.

Hope this helps....
post #132 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

How did you have the system set when you calibrated the levels, and what test tones did you use to set them?

Also - I can't stress this enough:

If you change settings, you have to recalibrate your levels. They will NOT stay the same when you make changes to the configuration. Also, you can't use the pink-noise tones from your receiver to set levels for analog inputs and expect the levels to be correct. You must use test tones from a disc.

What you are probably hearing is the LFE level dropping by 5 dB when you enable bass management by setting SPDIF out to PCM. What may not be obvious is that while the LFE level has dropped by 5 dB, you have now added the redirected bass to the signal (assuming you have your speaker sizes set to SMALL). Thus, if you recalibrate your levels, I'd bet you'll be happier with the signal you get when SPDIF is set to PCM.

Just wanted to update that I used DVE to re-calibrate all speakers and
now everything sounds spot on. setting SPDIF to PCM is definately the way
to go.

All your help is greatly appreciated.

Many thanks.
post #133 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Try this:
> Balance your receiver's speaker levels using a digital source - it doesn't matter where it comes from.
> Apply the +10 dB LFE boost to your analog ins on the receiver
> In the XA2 5.1 menu, set the sub level to '0', and each of the other levels to '-5' - this should get you fairly close to balanced.
> Now use disc-based tones to tweak the levels, using the XA2 level controls.

You should now be able to switch back and forth without changing levels (assuming that your receiver only adds the 10 dB boost to the analog input).

I'd like to know if this works for you with your equipment.

Not having the XA2 I did not know that you could set speaker level output on the XA2. Now I see how this works. You calibrate your system and then you adjust the levels with the XA2 to get the proper levels when playing an HD DVD, but what about when you play a SD DVD on the XA2. If you use the 5.1 analog then your levels are fine, but then you only get DD, correct? If you wanted DTS with the XA2 then you would have to switch over to Optical or SPDIF would you not? Switching over then would mean that the XA2's levels would be off. Am I understanding this correctly? Once I get a XA2 I will let you know how it works with my set up. Thanks for your help.
post #134 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Not having the XA2 I did not know that you could set speaker level output on the XA2. Now I see how this works. You calibrate your system and then you adjust the levels with the XA2 to get the proper levels when playing an HD DVD, but what about when you play a SD DVD on the XA2.

Use the analogs for everything, and select the codec you want in the disc's menu. The relative levels are constant between SD DVD and HD DVD, all codecs.

Quote:


If you use the 5.1 analog then your levels are fine, but then you only get DD, correct?

No. The benefit of the analog outs is that the XA2 will decode TrueHD, DD+, dts, etc. internally, and send the decoded 5.1 signals to the receiver. In fact, I believe that it is the ONLY way to get TrueHD from a disc encoded with AA without having it transcoded first. In fact, it is the other way around - if you use SPDIF, you are stuck with 1.5M at best.

Quote:


If you wanted DTS with the XA2 then you would have to switch over to Optical or SPDIF would you not?

No - see above.

Quote:


Switching over then would mean that the XA2's levels would be off.

Not necessarily. If you set up your receiver initially with the digital input, then your levels in the receiver will be correct for it's decoder. Then, when you switch to the analog ins, the settings you create in the XA2 will compensate for whatever settings you put into the receiver.

Make sense?
post #135 of 455
Thanks. I think you have answered all of my questions and I think I am ready to buy. Robert has it at $499.99.
post #136 of 455
Well, I used the DVE HD version and still no sub output........i really dunno how to fix it?
i noticed you called for the sub to be set to +12 db on the Xa2 ? mine is adj from 0 to -12 ??
thanks for any help
post #137 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by petmic10 View Post

Need help. I am far from an audiophile but I have done all that is recommended and when doing so my bass doesn't seem to have the same impact as when SPDIF is set to Bitstream.

With the following settings bass seems like its lacking.

Digital out SPDIF to PCM
Digital out HDMI to Auto
Speakers set to small
LFE/SUB Channel +15 for analogs

When only changing Digital out SPDIF to Bitstream, bass returns with force.

I have a Denon 3805 that can add +15 to LFE for the analogs and Infiniti sat. speakers that obviously cannot play low frequencies and an SVS sub to handle
bass.

It seems that for me, setting Digtal out SPDIF to PCM has an adverse affect as
far as bass output is concerned.

BTW, running firmware 1.6.

Any input by the experts greatly appreciated?


I also have a Denon 3805 am having this exact same problem, my Eosone 1000's are SERIOUSLY lacking bass, the extra bottom subs in each speaker are not currently plugged into the wall, but these are additional subwoofers, these babies have 4 other speakers plus a an extra bottoms subwoofer, and have never ever been short on bass even without these extra speakers.

I have the same settings and the speakers set on 2 channel.

Dynamic range management is on.

Anyone? They sound hollow. I am using analog out 2 channel only.
post #138 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZtop View Post

I also have a Denon 3805 am having this exact same problem, my Eosone 1000's are SERIOUSLY lacking bass, the extra bottom subs in each speaker are not currently plugged into the wall, but these are additional subwoofers, these babies have 4 other speakers plus a an extra bottoms subwoofer, and have never ever been short on bass even without these extra speakers.

I have the same settings and the speakers set on 2 channel.

Dynamic range management is on.

Anyone? They sound hollow. I am using analog out 2 channel only.

?????

You're using analog 2-channel out? What does this have to do with Bass Management?

Bass Management cannot be used in a 2.0 system - it's just not possible, as there is no '.1' channel for the bass to be routed into.
post #139 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by teddis01 View Post

Well, I used the DVE HD version and still no sub output........i really dunno how to fix it?

Did you go back and read the very first post in this thread?

Quote:


i noticed you called for the sub to be set to +12 db on the Xa2 ? mine is adj from 0 to -12 ??

Where did you read that? I think you're misunderstanding something......

Start from the beginning, and tell us exactly how you have everything connected, and how you have each setting set. Then we might be able to help.
post #140 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

?????

You're using analog 2-channel out? What does this have to do with Bass Management?

Bass Management cannot be used in a 2.0 system - it's just not possible, as there is no '.1' channel for the bass to be routed into.


Bear in mind I am trying to follow the fix advice on here and it repeatedly discusses bass management doesn't it? Audio is one of my weakenesses, if the bass is not there to manage in 2 channel configuration I can understand that, but then where is all the bass that should be coming from my XA2? My other dvd and cd players output the bass just fine.

I just ordered some optical cables today.
post #141 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZtop View Post

Bear in mind I am trying to follow the fix advice on here and it repeatedly discusses bass management doesn't it? Audio is one of my weakenesses, if the bass is not there to manage in 2 channel configuration I can understand that, but then where is all the bass that should be coming from my XA2? My other dvd and cd players output the bass just fine.

I just ordered some optical cables today.

OK, let me try to explain this:

If you are running SPDIF or HDMI, you should not be trying to use BM in the XA2. You should have all of your speakers set to 'LARGE'.

If you are using the decoder in your receiver, then you need to let the receiver sort it out.

When you turn on Bass Management by setting speakers to small, it is trying to redirect bass from the main channels to the sub channel. This is at odds with running either the 2.0 analog outputs or the digital out. In both cases, the receiver will be trying to route the bass as it sees fit, but by turning BM on on the player, you have already stripped the bass out of the signal(s) that you are sending to the receiver.
post #142 of 455
MauneyM,

I have been following this thread and did some testing of my Xa2 1.6. (analog out)

Using DVE HD (Rattle test) it appears that on the standard DVD side which is DD Ex, BM works no matter what setting the SPDIF is. (Bitstream or PCM) On the HD side which I think is DD+ (don't recall if its DD+ or TrueHD) it only works as you say with the SPDIF set to PCM. So it appears the BM for DD+/TrueHD is not working correctly on the Xa2 (SPDIF settings should not affect the analog outs), is this your findings also?

Thanks
post #143 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

OK, let me try to explain this:

If you are running SPDIF or HDMI, you should not be trying to use BM in the XA2. You should have all of your speakers set to 'LARGE'.

If you are using the decoder in your receiver, then you need to let the receiver sort it out.

When you turn on Bass Management by setting speakers to small, it is trying to redirect bass from the main channels to the sub channel. This is at odds with running either the 2.0 analog outputs or the digital out. In both cases, the receiver will be trying to route the bass as it sees fit, but by turning BM on on the player, you have already stripped the bass out of the signal(s) that you are sending to the receiver.

I appreciate the explanation, as I obviously did not know this or understand it, but I was at this cross roads before, and it did not seem there was a way to have the speaker size set to large unless I changed it from 2 channel to 5.1 channel.

So let me hazard a guess, do I need to to change it 5.1 and set the speaker size to large on the L & R, and then change it back to 2 channel? I was never able to get the speaker size graphics up with 2 channel selected, which I think it where the disconnect first happened for me.

I would think if Toshiba wanted us to change the speaker size for the 2 channel setting it should have made the icons visible... or perhaps something is not working right in my setup menus. I have had some problems with this player getting some of the my selections to stay in the Setup menus, later when I come back a day or two later, it seemed more than once a setting change I made appeared to not have been saved.
post #144 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny44 View Post

Using DVE HD (Rattle test) it appears that on the standard DVD side which is DD Ex, BM works no matter what setting the SPDIF is. (Bitstream or PCM) On the HD side which I think is DD+ (don't recall if its DD+ or TrueHD) it only works as you say with the SPDIF set to PCM. So it appears the BM for DD+/TrueHD is not working correctly on the Xa2 (SPDIF settings should not affect the analog outs), is this your findings also?

It's easy to say that the SPDIF settings shouldn't impact the analog outs, but if the manual stated that SPDIF output should be set to PCM when you use the analogs, would it matter?

From where I sit, I would say that BM works fine on the XA2. Using the analog outputs requires that SPDIF out be set to PCM. The trouble is that the requirement for the SPDIF setting is not documented, and thus is confusing.
post #145 of 455
This may be a stupid question, but this is all fairly new to me so I'm trying to figure everything out. If I have a receiver that handles bass management and I use the analog out on my XA2, do I have to worry about this bass management fix since my receiver handles everything?

Also, does anyone know if I have a standard DVD that uses DTS that I play on my XA2, will DTS get sent out to my receiver via the analog out or do I need to also have a digital cable connected to the XA2 to my receiver?

Thanks in advance for the help!
post #146 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZtop View Post

I would think if Toshiba wanted us to change the speaker size for the 2 channel setting it should have made the icons visible... or perhaps something is not working right in my setup menus.

Actually, I think that Toshiba (and most other CE companies) do not expect users to continually change settings.

The vast majority of users will go into the setup menu once (if at all). They will configure the device to match their system, then never touch it again. I would even venture to guess that there's a large group of users who will simply plug in the player and use it without ever looking at the setup menus; unless they have a problem, they will assume that everything is correct.

We users who go into and out of the setup menu regularly to optimize the system for every conceivable circumstance are the exception, not the rule.
post #147 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Using the analog outputs requires that SPDIF out be set to PCM. The trouble is that the requirement for the SPDIF setting is not documented, and thus is confusing.

But it is also unfortunate for those of us who like to switch to using the S/PDIF connection when not using a DD+ or TrueHD selection on a disc. Very nice to get 7.1 sound by using Dolby PLIIx layered on top of a 5.1 digital input without having to drive down into the player's audio setup to switch the SPDIF back to bitstream each time it is desired to do so.

I do hope that Toshiba can unhook this odd interaction of the analog bass management with the SPDIF PCM/bitstream setting. But I can imagine the reason why this may be happening with the internal software/firmware architecture. Didn't they go from using four audio processing SHARC DSP's on the A1 & XA1 to just one on the XA2? Stuff happens with embedded software.
post #148 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Actually, I think that Toshiba (and most other CE companies) do not expect users to continually change settings.

The vast majority of users will go into the setup menu once (if at all). They will configure the device to match their system, then never touch it again. I would even venture to guess that there's a large group of users who will simply plug in the player and use it without ever looking at the setup menus; unless they have a problem, they will assume that everything is correct.

We users who go into and out of the setup menu regularly to optimize the system for every conceivable circumstance are the exception, not the rule.



That all may or may not be true, but not's let forget the context of this thread, which is about going and changing these exact settings to get a temporary fix by altering these same settings.

I appreciate the help but find the comment about what you think Toshiba expects a bit off inside this thread...you are right users may not have to go back or even want to go back in to change the settings after one intial time, but in this case the player has a problem so that setup menu has to be used if you have a bass problem. I think the setup menu graphic is cool and very straight forward in and of itself. You sound like are trying to defend Toshiba or the player, in my case you don't need to , I just want the bass to work.
post #149 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Under Firmware v 1.6, Bass Management does work properly in the XA2, but there are a couple of things you need to know if you are going to use BM with the analog outs.

For now, it seems best to simply operate with all of the channels set to LARGE with 10 dB LFE boost,

or all set to SMALL with 15 dB LFE boost.

Questions:
[1] Is it required to upgrade to 1.6 before doing this? I currently have 1.5. I don't have an internet connection at home (typing this from work). I had to wait several weeks to get the 1.5 CD from Toshiba.

[2] What about speaker distance settings, in both the XA2 and in the AVR? I assume that I should leave them at 0 feet in the XA2 and specify the correct distance in the AVR, correct?

[3] I have 7 Orbaudio satellite speakers and an SVS sub. Do you recommend that I go with "large" & 10 dB boost or "small" & 15 dB boost?

Thank you,
post #150 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalat View Post

Questions:
[1] Is it required to upgrade to 1.6 before doing this? I currently have 1.5. I don't have an internet connection at home (typing this from work). I had to wait several weeks to get the 1.5 CD from Toshiba.

[2] What about speaker distance settings, in both the XA2 and in the AVR? I assume that I should leave them at 0 feet in the XA2 and specify the correct distance in the AVR, correct?

[3] I have 7 Orbaudio satellite speakers and an SVS sub. Do you recommend that I go with "large" & 10 dB boost or "small" & 15 dB boost?

1. You can download an ISO for firmware 1.6 from Toshiba Canada here.

2. If your AVR does not re-digitize the 5.1 analog inputs - then you normally have to re-enter the same settings in the player as used in the AVR.

3. Set to "small" in the player -- again if your AVR does not re-digitize the 5.1 analog inputs. Set the player normal channels to -5 dB, the LFE channel to 0 dB and do the remaining +10 dB boost at the SVS input gain control. Then you will have to redo the AVR calibration for when using non-direct multichannel inputs like normal 2 channel or S/PDIF (coax or Toslink), in order to compensate for the SVS's increased sensitivity.

You may want to Y the side surround outputs of the Tosh player to both the side and rear surrounds inputs to the AVR -- I do and like the effect.
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