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XA2 Bass Management Fix confirmed!! - Page 8

post #211 of 455
I have a question. I have an XA-2 hooked up to my pioneer vsx81 receiver via HDMI. I notice that on most HD-DVD movies that the DD+ sound is low volume and also lacking bass (from subwoofers). I have to really turn up the volume compared to a true dolbyHD track. I have tried setting the speakers both to large and small as well as setting all speakers to -10 dB. Still the same. This happens on > 80% of movies with DD+ The only movie that has a good sounding DD+ is superman returns (which also has true dolbyHD). Could I have a defective XA-2 that is not decoding DD+ correctly or is this simply a matter of the movies. I have a +10dB LFE setting in my receiver and all speakers are set to large. Thanks
post #212 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Yamahas, for example, allow you to adjust the levels, but not the delay or bass management. Thus, you need to set the 'master' level balance at the receiver first all of the digital and 2-channel sources, then adjust the XA2 to match.



OK, if you need to do this, then you might have to re-adjust the sub level, but you wouldn't want or need to change anything else. But - why wouldn't you just adjust the sub output level in the XA2?.

My Yamaha RX-V2500 does not have individual channel trims for the 6 chan direct input -- just an overall input trim. I do set the player outputs down -5dB with the sub left at 0 dB, but I still need 10 dB more LFE boost which I get at the sub amp.

As long as I don't boost the sub amp gain too much the Yamaha's YPAO can still pull it into calibration when set to use a digital or 2 chan analog input.
post #213 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank D View Post

Has anyone noticed a difference in the bass output since the 2.5 version upgrade for their XA2?

I am not sure but since I upgraded to 2.5 my bass seems lounder and it just sounds so much, much, much more better. Sounds much more right! Better impact etc.

I wonder if they did anything in the 2.5 upgrade to enhance this some how. Also I have not changed any of my setting from prior to v2.5 upgrade- leave all at default in XA2 - all channels as large, yes to sub, and distances all at 0.

HI I am Charolin, I am totally agree with you, I recently changed to 5.1 analog output now with the lastest firmware 2.5 and I discovered that Bass is other thing, big, lounder and much much better, as you say, but my configuration is:

SPDIF Bistream
HIMD PCM
The others the same like you

What is your opinion?
post #214 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by charolin View Post

HI I am Charolin, I am totally agree with you, I recently changed to 5.1 analog output now with the lastest firmware 2.5 and I discovered that Bass is other thing, big, lounder and much much better, as you say, but my configuration is:

SPDIF Bistream
HIMD PCM
The others the same like you

What is your opinion?

I have been using 5.1 analog from the begining. When I upgraded to 2.5 and then played the HD DVD movie, The Matrix Reloaded, the bass sounded louder and much better.

I will hopefully test it with some other movies in the next week to two.

I beleive that I have my SPDIF at Bitsream and my HDMI on auto.
post #215 of 455
I just got my XA2 so I only ever had software v2.5. I noticed initially that the bass was really low on the analogs and just left the sub at 0 and the other speakers were taken down to -7 to -8dB. I didn't realize there was a problem with the outputs and it seemed to be the best solution. I use the toslink for standard DVD's and left the spdif set to bitstream and hdmi to auto.

Maybe this will help figure out if they fixed it with 2.5. Since my pre doesn;'t touch the analog signal I had to do all BM etc through the player.

Joe
post #216 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank D View Post

I have been using 5.1 analog from the begining. When I upgraded to 2.5 and then played the HD DVD movie, The Matrix Reloaded, the bass sounded louder and much better.

I will hopefully test it with some other movies in the next week to two.

I beleive that I have my SPDIF at Bitsream and my HDMI on auto.

I did some testing last night. Firmware 2.5 has not fixed the bass management problems with the player. You still must set SPDIF to "PCM" to get bass management for the analog outputs to work.
post #217 of 455
What does it do if it's set to bitstream??
post #218 of 455
Why can't they fix this?
post #219 of 455
Perhaps, Toshiba thinks it's fixed because of this thread?....

The thread title should be... "XA2 BM potential work around, but still needs fixing"
post #220 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post

Perhaps, Toshiba thinks it's fixed because of this thread?....

The thread title should be... "XA2 BM potential work around, but still needs fixing"

What still needs to be fixed? The only issue is that you have to use an undocumented setting - this is a documentation issue, not a functional issue. Why would or should anyone care what the SPDIF setting is when you're using the analog outputs?

I'll say it again - Bass Management in the XA2 works just fine, when you have the proper settings in place.
post #221 of 455
Why should I use the analog 5.1 instead of the digital out coax or optical?
Will there be an improvement in sound? Will speech be any clearer etc.?
Thanks for the help.
post #222 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

What still needs to be fixed? The only issue is that you have to use an undocumented setting - this is a documentation issue, not a functional issue. Why would or should anyone care what the SPDIF setting is when you're using the analog outputs?

I'll say it again - Bass Management in the XA2 works just fine, when you have the proper settings in place.

Well... the proper working status would not require the workaround and the prior analog 5.1 settings with XA1 should also work fairly well with XA2. I don't think the temporary workaround is a long term solution, especially an user has to perform an undocumented procedure to get it working.
post #223 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbaracelona View Post

Why should I use the analog 5.1 instead of the digital out coax or optical?
Will there be an improvement in sound? Will speech be any clearer etc.?
Thanks for the help.

If you don't have an "HDMI receiver", Analog 5.1 outs are the only way to pass the new advanced HD "lossless" codecs like Dolby DD+, Dolby TrueHD, and (hopefully) DTS-MA HD. Using coax or optical will down-mix these to the old DD 5.1 or DTS 5.1.

I'm using analog 5.1 outs, and with the proper settings to player and receiver (thanks MauneyM!), the new codecs blow the roof off my house. (Batman Begins was truly relevatory)
post #224 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post

Well... the proper working status would not require the workaround and the prior analog 5.1 settings with XA1 should also work fairly well with XA2.

Why? They are different products - there is no guarantee that you can transfer settings from one product to another in ANY product line. with any new piece of equipment, you have to learn the settings and go through the calibration process - that's basic.

Quote:


I don't think the temporary workaround is a long term solution, especially an user has to perform an undocumented procedure to get it working.

The fact that is undocumented is admittedly a pain, but I wouldn't call it a temporary work-around. I would call it a gap in the documentation. Why would you call it a temporary work-around when there is no reason to change the functionality? Again, it works just fine as it is today - the only issue is that the manual doesn't tell you you have to set SPDIF to PCM.
post #225 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Why? They are different products - there is no guarantee that you can transfer settings from one product to another in ANY product line. with any new piece of equipment, you have to learn the settings and go through the calibration process - that's basic.

The "industry common practice" default dB out of the channels is what I'm discussing not just a special setting of a particular product, in this case is the XA2. Of course, it's basic to follow up with calibration, but it usually does not require adjusting more than 1 to 2 dB settings from the unit being replaced.

Quote:


The fact that is undocumented is admittedly a pain, but I wouldn't call it a temporary work-around. I would call it a gap in the documentation. Why would you call it a temporary work-around when there is no reason to change the functionality? Again, it works just fine as it is today - the only issue is that the manual doesn't tell you you have to set SPDIF to PCM.

is it a common practice to mess with SPDIF settings to get the analog 5.1 BM to work properly?....

I'm not posting here to attack or insult anyone here, I'm just merely noting that Toshiba still needs to do diligent and fix this. This analog 5.1 issue have been brought up by many since the product launch. Soon, it will be a year with outstanding analogy 5.1 issue.
post #226 of 455
Does the analog 5.1 provide the same improvement over the standard dvd? What I am looking for is cleaned dialog? Again, thanks for the help. Also is Avia ok for calabrating, since dvd and hd dvd are different?
post #227 of 455
Does anyone agree with me that the sound from the analog outs is superior to that of the HDMI out? Or is that a function of the player's DACS vs. the receiver's DACS? If so, then everybody's MMV.
post #228 of 455
The Burr Brown DACs inside the Toshiba players are great, and many prefer them to the DACs inside their receivers. Using analog out also bypasses most of the receiver's processing, so you may be getting a cleaner output.
post #229 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post

The "industry common practice" default dB out of the channels is what I'm discussing not just a special setting of a particular product, in this case is the XA2.

The XA2 relative output levels are correct with respect to the Dolby 5.1 specs. The fact that many other products are incorrect does not make them right, nor does it make the XA2 wrong. LFE levels are supposed to operate the way they do on the XA2 (at least the way they do since v1.6). If you look back at the RTA traces I posted, measured directly from the 5.1 outputs, you'll see that the XA2 matches the Dolby spec levels to within 1 dB.

Quote:


Of course, it's basic to follow up with calibration, but it usually does not require adjusting more than 1 to 2 dB settings from the unit being replaced.

That depends. If you're going from a digital connection to a 5.1 analog, I would expect to have to completely re-calibrate the system, because most receivers don't do anything to the 5.1 signal.

Quote:


is it a common practice to mess with SPDIF settings to get the analog 5.1 BM to work properly?....

No, but if the manual said you needed to, why would you care? As I said, it's a documentation issue, not a functional issue.
post #230 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

The XA2 relative output levels are correct with respect to the Dolby 5.1 specs. The fact that many other products are incorrect does not make them right, nor does it make the XA2 wrong. LFE levels are supposed to operate the way they do on the XA2 (at least the way they do since v1.6). If you look back at the RTA traces I posted, measured directly from the 5.1 outputs, you'll see that the XA2 matches the Dolby spec levels to within 1 dB.

That depends. If you're going from a digital connection to a 5.1 analog, I would expect to have to completely re-calibrate the system, because most receivers don't do anything to the 5.1 signal.

No, but if the manual said you needed to, why would you care? As I said, it's a documentation issue, not a functional issue.


Perhaps, something is wrong with my particular XA2. I was using analog 5.1 setting previously calibrated out of Denon 2900 universal player. Only minor volume adjustment was required when calibrating for XA1, when calibrated with RadioShack SPL meter. And with XA2, I needed serious adjustments and have to play with a SPDIF & HDMI output settings to get the BM to work properly. Perhaps, I need to spend more money on a new AVR with HDMI input, that will be a far better remedy for XA2 analog 5.1 issues, I mean a documentation issue.
post #231 of 455
Even though I use an HDMI connection to my receiver for audio, I decided to hook up some interconnects to the analog audio outputs on my XA2 just to check out this wierd base management issue for myself. I just can't understand how the SPDIF output setting should have any affect on the analog audio outs. Anyway, after calibrating, the levels including the base were exactly the same wether SPDIF was set to PCM or Bitstream. I set all the speakers to small and the crossover at 80. All I had to do was boost each channel 3dbs to reach the 75db reference (and boost the sub channel 10db through the receiver). After that, all levels matched no matter what the digital audio settings were on either SPDIF or HDMI. This is of course how it should be. My player has firmware 2.2 installed. Maybe firmware fixed this issue or maybe it only affects some players. I know that if I were using the analog outs, I'd be really annoyed at having to go into the setup menu to switch the SPDIF back to Bitstream anytime I wanted to switch the processing from the player to the receiver (such as those 2.0 Dolby Digital mono soundtracks that bypass the center channel).
post #232 of 455
^^^ Gabbo, where you sure that you tested the bass management re-direction of below 80 Hz mains bass being sent/re-directed to the sub/LFE channel? For me that is the reason for having to set the SPDIF to PCM. Original LFE sound goes through just fine either way.
post #233 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

^^^ Gabbo, where you sure that you tested the bass management re-direction of below 80 Hz mains bass being sent/re-directed to the sub/LFE channel? For me that is the reason for having to set the SPDIF to PCM. Original LFE sound goes through just fine either way.

I think so. I have three subs (1 dedicated and 2 built in to the left/right fronts). I used the digital video essentials test signals and the 40-80hz track is what I was using to measure the LFE. It sure sounded to me like the sound was coming only from the subs on that signal. I have all the speakers in the XA2 setup menu set to small and the crossover set to 80, so all sounds below 80hz should be going directly to the subs - and it sounds like that is what's happening. Again, changing the SPDIF between PCM and Bitstream makes no difference on the analog outs in my player.

Also, I must note that the sound quality over the analog outs was mighty impressive, on both dolby digital + and TrueHD soundtacks. I'm using good quality audioquest interconnects and it sounds just as good as the HDMI connection to me. I think it's silly for home theater enthusiasts to upgrade their receivers just to get HDMI, although I suppose that's exactly what the developers of HDMI had in mind.
post #234 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Great Gabbo View Post

Also, I must note that the sound quality over the analog outs was mighty impressive, on both dolby digital + and TrueHD soundtacks. I'm using good quality audioquest interconnects and it sounds just as good as the HDMI connection to me. I think it's silly for home theater enthusiasts to upgrade their receivers just to get HDMI, although I suppose that's exactly what the developers of HDMI had in mind.

Agreed, but the XA2 is the reason why. Most receiver's won't have the great DAC's noted below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megalith View Post

The Burr Brown DACs inside the Toshiba players are great, and many prefer them to the DACs inside their receivers. Using analog out also bypasses most of the receiver's processing, so you may be getting a cleaner output.


Mark
post #235 of 455
I attempted this procedure last night with my Integra DTR-6.5. Unfortunately, I didn't get very far because I immediately noticed quite a bit of video delay when using the analog outputs. Based on this and other threads, this sounds like a common problem. In that respect, doesn't this make the analog output practically useless? I am hoping there is some sort of work around for this as the analog outputs did sound impressive.

Thanks,
Mark
post #236 of 455
Is there somewhere I can go to find how to set up my XA2 for analog 5.1? I mean what to do in the receiver and the dvd player, 1st, 2nd, etc. I know this is complicated, but I would like to hear if analog sounds better to these old ears. I have a Nad Masters M15 pre with the M25 amp. Thanks for any help. I have read this thread, but only get confused. I would also like to keep the sound levels at least close when playing a dvd or hd dvd and the sat. receiver.
post #237 of 455
Quote:


As I said, it's a documentation issue, not a functional issue.

...only if you do not plan to use SPDIF at all, or are willing to go into setup and change the setting each time... Me, I am hoping that Onkyo fixes this little glitch (yes, a glitch) for those of us who want to also use the player for SD DVDs, and utilize stuff like PLIIx...
post #238 of 455
I have my XA2 connected via the 5.1 analog, SPDIF is set to PCM. When I play a disc in standard DD or DTS, I want my AVR to do the decoding so it can apply DDEX/DTS-ES processing. This means I have to stop the disc, go to the setup menu and change the setting to Bitstream, and then make sure I remember to change it back before watching anything with DD+/DTHD.

If thats not a functional issue I don't know what is.

Hakka.
post #239 of 455
Despite MauneyM's protestations, the workaround of setting SPDIF to "PCM" is clearly a bug that needs to be fixed. Many users have call to use both types of connection depending on the content played. For example, I agree with Hakka about preferring to let my receiver decode standard DD and DTS. For discs with that type of audio, I need the Bitstream. For DD+ and TrueHD audio, I need the analog outputs.
post #240 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Despite MauneyM's protestations, the workaround of setting SPDIF to "PCM" is clearly a bug that needs to be fixed. Many users have call to use both types of connection depending on the content played. For example, I agree with Hakka about preferring to let my receiver decode standard DD and DTS. For discs with that type of audio, I need the Bitstream. For DD+ and TrueHD audio, I need the analog outputs.

Ditto.
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