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XA2 Bass Management Fix confirmed!! - Page 2

post #31 of 455
6/3/07 at 7:30pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

You guys are onto something with changing the SPDIF setting to PCM.
[...]
Weird.

Yes, it is strange. It does, however, explain why reasonably knowledgeable, experienced people were getting different results.

I'd still put this in the category of a bug, or at least poor documentation. However, the work-around is easy enough, and seems to have no other negative side-effects.
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post #32 of 455
6/3/07 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

I'd still put this in the category of a bug, or at least poor documentation. However, the work-around is easy enough, and seems to have no other negative side-effects.

It's clearly a bug. The negative side effect is that if you plan to sometimes use the SPDIF output to transmit a bitstream that will no longer work unless you manually change the setting each time.

For example, my preferance is to use the analog outputs for DD+ and TrueHD on HD DVDs, but for standard DVDs I'd rather stick with bitstream over Toslink and let my receiver do the decoding.
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post #33 of 455
6/3/07 at 8:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

You could also simply cut the 5 main channels in the XA2 by 5db (leave the sub at zero).

Woops! Fuzzy thinking on my part. I have the LFE at 0 and the other channels around -6 dB (with +- 3db for speaker sens diffs) in the XA2's level settings. So that should provide enough LFE+BM boost to get to +15 dB. It is just hard to measure with the unfamiliar DVE for me. I do not like the navigation through the disc sound setup choices. May have to buy a notebook running XP just to run TrueRTA -- so much easier doing a cal and knowing what the test tones/pink noise is doing at the moment.

If the HD DVD of DVE using TrueHD did not really change anything maybe we can go back to using the SD DVD of Avia or the THX test tones.
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post #34 of 455
6/4/07 at 2:24am
Mauney everyone on avs owes you a major round of applause, for the dedication and research you have done on this issue. I have bass on my system thanks to your gudiance. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. No one at toshiba customer service has a clue about this issue, i have talked to so many csr. They don't even know there was a broblem with bass management

Toshiba Mauney has saved the day for the XA-2you should send him 20 hd dvd's!!! .
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post #35 of 455
6/4/07 at 4:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

If the HD DVD of DVE using TrueHD did not really change anything maybe we can go back to using the SD DVD of Avia or the THX test tones.

I would think so.
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post #36 of 455
6/4/07 at 5:51am
Agreed. I did it last night and it seemed to have an effect.
I have to recalibrate still to see how it stacks up to the bass output I get over toslink.
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post #37 of 455
6/4/07 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

It's clearly a bug. The negative side effect is that if you plan to sometimes use the SPDIF output to transmit a bitstream that will no longer work unless you manually change the setting each time.

.

As an aside, for those using HDMI LPCM, setting spdif to bitstream also forces upsampling to 96khz. The native rate is 48khz (at least for now) and this is provided when spdif is set to PCM. Some (including me) would rather allow the AVR/pre-pro to do the upconversion if necessary.
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post #38 of 455
6/4/07 at 7:27pm
Thanks for the bm updates to the XA2. Ive had mine since January and have yet to update my firmware since ive had zero problems with the player (using spdif output to receiver). However, im planning to move the player into a dedicated fp theater and will be using the analog outputs into an Audio Refinement Pre5 preamp so this info. is much appreciated!

Regards,
Ricky
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post #39 of 455
6/4/07 at 9:12pm
Sticky.
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post #40 of 455
6/5/07 at 5:39am
I agree, this should get a sticky. Did more testing last night, and by God, this actually does seem to do the trick. Mega thanks to MauneyM for being so persistent that his setup was working right when the rest of us didn't buy it, and cuzzin, who, after changing his XA2 audio setup to what MauneyM was using, discovered that MauneyM was right, and that changing digital output to PCM fixes BM.

Now that we have a workaround, one of us needs to be a guinea pig on all future fw updates to make sure they don't fix THIS bug without fixing the BM issue.
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post #41 of 455
6/5/07 at 5:55am
Anyone else scratching their head thinking that Toshiba really screwed this up?
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post #42 of 455
6/5/07 at 6:10am
I'm just glad we have a workaround instead of waiting for a fix Toshiba may or may not ever release.
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post #43 of 455
6/5/07 at 7:15am
Quote:


Yeah it seems that setting SPDIF also affects HDMI as well.

thehun,

Would you mind clarify this statement a bit for me? Are you saying that the Digital Out SPDIF setting affects how BM is performed over HDMI as well as analog outs?

I've since upgrade my AVR to an HDMI-equiped one that properly boots the LFE +10db, the Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXSi; and the settings I have currently on my Toshiba HD-XA2 are: Digital Out SPDIF: Bitstream and Digital Out HDMI: Auto. I have my receiver configured to perform the BM: all speakers are: Small, speaker distances specified, Crossover: 80, etc. Do I need to set the speakers to Large within the HD-XA2?

I'm just looking for some confirmation that my setup is correct with respect to the HD-XA2? Everything sounds correct, but I'm just so over messing around with it.
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post #44 of 455
6/5/07 at 7:27am
Quote:


Would you mind clarify this statement a bit for me? Are you saying that the Digital Out SPDIF setting affects how BM is performed over HDMI as well as analog outs?

As far as I know it doesn't affects BM via HDMI[and in your case you wouldn't use that in the XA-2] but it does let the player "upsample"[set SPDIF to PCM] it's output to 96/24 from 48/24.PCM
Keep in mind that currently Dolby THD soundtracks are mostly 48/16 and 48/24 so the player doesn't "downrez" but keeps it "native" with your current settings.But you're free to experiment.
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post #45 of 455
6/5/07 at 7:27am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette View Post

I've since upgrade my AVR to an HDMI-equiped one that properly boots the LFE +10db, the Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXSi; and the settings I have currently on my Toshiba HD-XA2 are: Digital Out SPDIF: Bitstream and Digital Out HDMI: Auto. I have my receiver configured to perform the BM: all speakers are: Small, speaker distances specified, Crossover: 80, etc. Do I need to set the speakers to Large within the HD-XA2?

Yes. If you set them to SMALL in two different places, you will have two different systems trying to apply bass management, which could leave you with a 'hole' in your frequency response.
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post #46 of 455
6/5/07 at 9:11am
Quote:


As far as I know it doesn't affects BM via HDMI[and in your case you wouldn't use that in the XA-2] but it does let the player "upsample"[set SPDIF to PCM] it's output to 96/24 from 48/24.PCM
Keep in mind that currently Dolby THD soundtracks are mostly 48/16 and 48/24 so the player doesn't "downrez" but keeps it "native" with your current settings.But you're free to experiment.

thehun,

Thanks. I'm a little fuzzy on the pros and cons of 'upsampling'. I could've sworn I read somewhere that the 'upsampling' was 'bad'.

Quote:


Yes. If you set them to SMALL in two different places, you will have two different systems trying to apply bass management, which could leave you with a 'hole' in your frequency response.

MauneyM,

Right you are. Thanks for the reminder. I will make sure BM is turned off inside the HD-XA2. I'm pretty sure it is, but better to be safe...

Thanks to both of you, I really appreciate it.
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post #47 of 455
6/5/07 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Thanks are owed to cpcat, cuzzin, and TundrSQ for sticking with it to help clarify this rather odd firmware bug. Thanks also to dstay22, MACCA350 and mlankton for not letting it drop.

Not that I feel left out or anything, but I managed to get the "XA2 Bass Management Issues" thread re-named from its original mis-leading title. The thread originator was MIA, and there had been some great discussion by very experienced contributors. However, some key players were getting frustrated by the meandering discussions.

My goal was to keep everyone calm and re-direct the discussions. As an XA2 owner using analog outputs, I wanted the key players to keep testing and researching. We decided to change the name, and that helped alot. I too am very thankful that you --and your RTA-- found the thread and came to our rescue, Mauney!


Mark
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post #48 of 455
6/5/07 at 11:55am
I just want to this MauenyM!

Mauney do you remember my post I put about the matrix having bass issues via my analog?

Well after I did exactly what you recommended to do guess what?

The bass is back the way it should be!!!!!!!

my god toshiba owes you big time.

Thanks again!
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post #49 of 455
6/5/07 at 11:56am
"I have my receiver configured to perform the BM: all speakers are: Small, speaker distances specified, Crossover: 80, etc. Do I need to set the speakers to Large within the HD-XA2?"

"Yes. If you set them to SMALL in two different places, you will have two different systems trying to apply bass management, which could leave you with a 'hole' in your frequency response."

It might do that, or it might be an improvement.

Both BM's use XO'ing at the same freq would double the slopes, giving greater freedom from overload/less distortion for the satellites and less localization of the sub(s).
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post #50 of 455
6/5/07 at 12:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

It might do that, or it might be an improvement.

Both BM's use XO'ing at the same freq would double the slopes, giving greater freedom from overload/less distortion for the satellites and less localization of the sub(s).

It would also double the amount of phase shift caused by the filters, which would create a comb filter effect in the region surrounding the crossover point.

This might still actually be an improvement for 'mono' bass signals, as opposed to the two-source issues you have with the L/R fronts, but I would expect it to have a net detrimental effect.
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post #51 of 455
6/5/07 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

....which would create a comb filter effect in the region surrounding the crossover point.

....

What exactly would a comb filter effect sound like????
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post #52 of 455
6/5/07 at 12:40pm
Thread Starter 
A comb filter effect is what happens when you have the same sound coming from two sources, or you have a fixed-time delay added to a signal, then summed back with the original source. When this occurs, some frequencies end up directly out-of-phase, some end up directly in-phase, and everything else is in between. The resulting frequency response looks like a comb, with the 'teeth' being the points where the two summed signals are exactly out-of-phase and cancel each other out. Those specific frequencies become drastically reduced in output, while the peaks are intensified by as much as 3 dB.

A good example of this effect is a musical electronic device called a 'flanger' that adds a delayed signal back into the signal path to intentionally create the comb filter effect. In this application, the effect is intentionally intensified, with the delay being varied to exaggerate and call attention to the altered response. The basic symptom, though, is the same.
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post #53 of 455
6/5/07 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

OK, I'm starting another thread, as the other one has gotten so long as to be difficult to follow.

Under Firmware v 1.6, Bass Management does work properly in the XA2, but there are a couple of things you need to know if you are going to use BM with the analog outs.

1) Digital Out SPDIF needs to be set to PCM
2) Digital Out HDMI needs to be set to AUTO
3) Set all speakers to SMALL
4) The LFE/Sub channel needs 15 dB of boost, not 10 db. This is to accomodate the additional gain required to handle the summation of the LFE channel and the redirected bass.

The additional 5 dB boost requirement kicks in when the L/R front mains are set to 'SMALL'.

Bass is redirected if you only set the center and surrounds to 'SMALL', but there are some minor level inconsistencies. You can see these in the center channel RTA traces in the other thread. For now, it seems best to simply operate with all of the channels set to LARGE with 10 dB LFE boost, or all set to SMALL with 15 dB LFE boost.

It seems that the SPDIF output setting impacts the analog outputs, and needs to be set to PCM for BM to work. This certainly isn't intuitive, but it has been demonstrated to make a difference.

Thanks are owed to cpcat, cuzzin, and TundrSQ for sticking with it to help clarify this rather odd firmware bug. Thanks also to dstay22, MACCA350 and mlankton for not letting it drop.

I recently switched over to an Onkyo SR505 with analog inputs from the XA2. I have been trying out the settings mentioned above. One thing I noticed is, in the XA2, I can only decrease the Subwoofer dB level from 0 - (-12), but cannot increase it to 10dB or 15dB. What exactly is meant by "15 dB LFE boost", where do I define this, in XA2 or in my receiver?
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post #54 of 455
6/5/07 at 1:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by psraj View Post

I recently switched over to an Onkyo SR505 with analog inputs from the XA2. I have been trying out the settings mentioned above. One thing I noticed is, in the XA2, I can only decrease the Subwoofer dB level from 0 - (-12), but cannot increase it to 10dB or 15dB. What exactly is meant by "15 dB LFE boost", where do I define this, in XA2 or in my receiver?

This should be done in the receiver. Look at page 54 in your manual - your receiver has a setting to add 15 dB of boost to the LFE/sub signal, in 5 dB increments.
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post #55 of 455
6/5/07 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

This should be done in the receiver. Look at page 54 in your manual - your receiver has a setting to add 15 dB of boost to the LFE/sub signal, in 5 dB increments.

So the correct settings should be 0 dB for the LFE in the XA2 and +15dB in receiver. I read some other post that mentioned setting the XA2 to -10dB and 15dB boost in the receiver. Is that necessary?
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post #56 of 455
6/5/07 at 1:58pm
Anybody know the answer to this question?

Quote:
Does this fix the problem of using 5 full range speakers and no sub? Currently V1.3, all set to large and sub to none and there is no bass at all.

By the way, I'm seeing reports that the above settings solve the problem with FW 1.5 as well as 1.6.

Thanks -- Trevor
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post #57 of 455
6/5/07 at 2:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by psraj View Post

So the correct settings should be 0 dB for the LFE in the XA2 and +15dB in receiver. I read some other post that mentioned setting the XA2 to -10dB and 15dB boost in the receiver. Is that necessary?

Most receivers, mine included will only apply a 0 or +10db increase to the analog subwoofer input. Which is still down by 5db if I opt to have the XA2 apply bass management (and I have no choice with the analog outs). I may just try setting all speakers to large and see what happens.
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post #58 of 455
6/5/07 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler358 View Post

Most receivers, mine included will only apply a 0 or +10db increase to the analog subwoofer input. Which is still down by 5db if I opt to have the XA2 apply bass management (and I have no choice with the analog outs). I may just try setting all speakers to large and see what happens.

all the adj do not need to be made just by adding +15 at the AVR. you can make it up at the sub amp and also by doign a -5db at the "other" speakers.
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post #59 of 455
6/5/07 at 3:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by psraj View Post

So the correct settings should be 0 dB for the LFE in the XA2 and +15dB in receiver. I read some other post that mentioned setting the XA2 to -10dB and 15dB boost in the receiver. Is that necessary?

No, and it's actually a bad idea. The bass management algorithms in the XA2 lower the output levels to the point where maximum output will not clip. Thus, when you lower outputs in the XA2, you actually raise the noise floor.

You should only lower the individual speaker output settings in the XA2 as a last resort.

It would be far more desirable to go with all of the LFE boost in the sub amp, if possible, and any necessary cuts to the other speakers to be done in the receiver.

[Reasons: 1) Adding the 15 dB boost in the receiver has the potential of overdriving the input of the sub amp, or clipping the sub output from the receiver. If you can simply turn the gain up on the sub, you avoid this potential distortion. 2) Lowering the gains of the other channels as late as possible (in the receiver) maintains the best possible S/N performance.]
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post #60 of 455
6/5/07 at 3:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler358 View Post

Most receivers, mine included will only apply a 0 or +10db increase to the analog subwoofer input. Which is still down by 5db if I opt to have the XA2 apply bass management (and I have no choice with the analog outs). I may just try setting all speakers to large and see what happens.

Why not just turn down the other 5 speakers by whatever amount is necessary to get them balanced? Alternatively, what about raising the gain at the sub amp?
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