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XA2 Bass Management Fix confirmed!! - Page 3

post #61 of 455
6/5/07 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Why not just turn down the other 5 speakers by whatever amount is necessary to get them balanced? Alternatively, what about raising the gain at the sub amp?

Yeah, the first option seems the best route if it won't degrade audio quality that much. I'd hate to keep changing the sub volume everytime I switch between DVD and other sources.
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post #62 of 455
6/5/07 at 5:17pm
MauneyM,

Recall I mentioned that I thought the xa2 was about 12db lower than my other sources. When I turn on the dialog enhancement the level comes up to where the other 2 are at. I wonder if this has to do with the fact that I'm only using 2 channels PCM(toslink), the sound is balanced from both channels, dialog is in perpective to the other audio. DO you know what effect the dialog enhancement is suppose to have on the different settings?
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post #63 of 455
6/5/07 at 5:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTS View Post

DO you know what effect the dialog enhancement is suppose to have on the different settings?

Sorry, can't help you there. I would assume that it's either a midrange boost or a center-channel boost, but I don't know for certain. It might be possible to find out by measuring with and without it engaged, but I won't have much time this week to fool with the RTA......
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post #64 of 455
6/5/07 at 7:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

No, and it's actually a bad idea. The bass management algorithms in the XA2 lower the output levels to the point where maximum output will not clip. Thus, when you lower outputs in the XA2, you actually raise the noise floor.

You should only lower the individual speaker output settings in the XA2 as a last resort.

It would be far more desirable to go with all of the LFE boost in the sub amp, if possible, and any necessary cuts to the other speakers to be done in the receiver.

[Reasons: 1) Adding the 15 dB boost in the receiver has the potential of overdriving the input of the sub amp, or clipping the sub output from the receiver. If you can simply turn the gain up on the sub, you avoid this potential distortion. 2) Lowering the gains of the other channels as late as possible (in the receiver) maintains the best possible S/N performance.]

MauneyM,
I looked up the Onkyo SR505 manual on page 54, and as per the manual,

"Some DVD players, the signal from multichannel sub woofer output is 15dB higher than normal. You can change the sub woofer sensitivity to match your DVD player.You can select 0 dB (default), +5 dB, +10 dB, or +15 dB. If you find your sub woofer is too loud, try the +10 dB or +15 dB."

I was under the impression the XA2 output was below normal. But as per your suggested settings, XA2 is above normal in LFE output. So which is correct, is the XA2 sub woofer output above normal levels or below normal levels?
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post #65 of 455
6/5/07 at 7:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by psraj View Post

"Some DVD players, the signal from multichannel sub woofer output is 15dB higher than normal.
[...]
I was under the impression the XA2 output was below normal. But as per your suggested settings, XA2 is above normal in LFE output. So which is correct, is the XA2 sub woofer output above normal levels or below normal levels?

That depends on what they mean by 'normal'. If 'normal' means per the Dolby spec, then the XA2 is at normal levels. However, there are so many different interpretations that it's tough to say exactly what they mean. Try it with test tones and a meter, and see what you get.....

From what I see, the XA2 is doing exactly what it should, per Dolby & THX. However, there are so many devices that DO NOT do what they should per the Dolby specs that the term 'normal' no longer has a definitive meaning.
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post #66 of 455
6/5/07 at 11:27pm
"It would also double the amount of phase shift caused by the filters, which would create a comb filter effect in the region surrounding the crossover point. "

Seems like six of one/half dozen of the other to me.

While the phase shift may be more (and it might not be with the XO'ing done in the digital domain), it's over a narrower freq range.

I also ask, what does comb fiiltering sound like? Anyone who listens to stereo from anywhere other than the centerline between the two speakers has it *full band*.
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post #67 of 455
6/6/07 at 6:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorS View Post

By the way, I'm seeing reports that the above settings solve the problem with FW 1.5 as well as 1.6.

Thanks -- Trevor

Mauney, If memory serves, you had indicated that you noticed the improvement in bass output when you upgraded from FW 1.5 to 1.6 without making any changes in settings. If my recollection is accurate, what do you make of Trevor's post?

I haven't upgraded to 1.6 yet because my room is not quite finished, so if I can help out, let me know.

Mark
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post #68 of 455
6/6/07 at 6:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Mauney, If memory serves, you had indicated that you noticed the improvement in bass output when you upgraded from FW 1.5 to 1.6 without making any changes in settings. If my recollection is accurate, what do you make of Trevor's post?

Yes, that was my observation. However, when I did the upgrade, I re-initialized the player,so it is conceivable that this changed a setting somewhere that I didn't track. It is possible that I had previously set the SPDIF output to 'Bitstream', though I have no recollection of having done so. Since we didn't yet understand the interaction of the settings outside of BM-specific items, I had no reason to track them pre- and post-upgrade. For that matter, it is possible that Toshiba changed the default SPDIF output setting - I can't tell, now that the upgrade has been done on my XA2.

Quote:


I haven't upgraded to 1.6 yet because my room is not quite finished, so if I can help out, let me know.

Well, the obvious thing would be to try to get your player to work properly under 1.5, then duplicate the settings after the upgrade and see if anything changes.

it might also be nice to see the results of an 'Initialize' command both before and after the upgrade, to see if there has been a change in the default settings.
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post #69 of 455
6/6/07 at 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Yes, that was my observation. However, when I did the upgrade, I re-initialized the player,so it is conceivable that this changed a setting somewhere that I didn't track. It is possible that I had previously set the SPDIF output to 'Bitstream', though I have no recollection of having done so. Since we didn't yet understand the interaction of the settings outside of BM-specific items, I had no reason to track them pre- and post-upgrade. For that matter, it is possible that Toshiba changed the default SPDIF output setting - I can't tell, now that the upgrade has been done on my XA2.



Well, the obvious thing would be to try to get your player to work properly under 1.5, then duplicate the settings after the upgrade and see if anything changes.

it might also be nice to see the results of an 'Initialize' command both before and after the upgrade, to see if there has been a change in the default settings.

OK, I can do that. Now, I just need to get the carpeting, haul everything in, set it up, and calibrate...and make time for the kids. It may be a couple of months , and we may be on to FW 1.7 by then, but I will get around to it. That is, if everyone is still interested by that time.

Mark
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post #70 of 455
6/6/07 at 11:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"I have my receiver configured to perform the BM: all speakers are: Small, speaker distances specified, Crossover: 80, etc. Do I need to set the speakers to Large within the HD-XA2?"

"Yes. If you set them to SMALL in two different places, you will have two different systems trying to apply bass management, which could leave you with a 'hole' in your frequency response."

It might do that, or it might be an improvement.

Both BM's use XO'ing at the same freq would double the slopes, giving greater freedom from overload/less distortion for the satellites and less localization of the sub(s).

Those could create cascading filters as we don't know the XO slopes in the Toshiba yet. Not a recommended scenario.
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post #71 of 455
6/6/07 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by psraj View Post

MauneyM,
I looked up the Onkyo SR505 manual on page 54, and as per the manual,

"Some DVD players, the signal from multichannel sub woofer output is 15dB higher than normal. You can change the sub woofer sensitivity to match your DVD player.You can select 0 dB (default), +5 dB, +10 dB, or +15 dB. If you find your sub woofer is too loud, try the +10 dB or +15 dB."

I was under the impression the XA2 output was below normal. But as per your suggested settings, XA2 is above normal in LFE output. So which is correct, is the XA2 sub woofer output above normal levels or below normal levels?


Onkyo looks this "backwards", basically the "0" position is the +15db boost, and the +15db is the lowest setting based on your quote above.
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post #72 of 455
6/6/07 at 11:25am
"Those could create cascading filters as we don't know the XO slopes in the Toshiba yet. Not a recommended scenario."

No "could" about it, and cascading is done intentionally all the time. A 4th-order L-R is two cascaded 2nd-order L-R's.

Sure, the safe reccommendation is don't do it, but it doesn't hurt to try.
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post #73 of 455
6/6/07 at 11:32am
My speaker configuration is the following: both L&R mains and surrounds are FULL range, center channel is not, with a dedicated sub. If I'm understanding these various posts, then I should be OK to set all speakers to Large except for center (Small) and then set receiver's (Denon AVR5800) sub channel level to +10dB ?
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post #74 of 455
6/6/07 at 2:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K_Armstrong View Post

My speaker configuration is the following: both L&R mains and surrounds are FULL range, center channel is not, with a dedicated sub. If I'm understanding these various posts, then I should be OK to set all speakers to Large except for center (Small) and then set receiver's (Denon AVR5800) sub channel level to +10dB ?

Haven't tried this particular configuration, but I have no reason to believe that it won't work as you describe. It may be a hair off in the speaker-to-speaker balance, but it should be within a couple of dB - within minor adjustment range.
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post #75 of 455
6/6/07 at 2:42pm
My question appears to heve been overlooked so I'm trying again:

Does this solve the issue of configuring the player BM for all full range speakers but no subwoofer -- problem being loss of bass content?

Quote:
Does this fix the problem of using 5 full range speakers and no sub? Currently V1.3, all set to large and sub to none and there is no bass at all.

Thanks again -- Trevor
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post #76 of 455
6/6/07 at 3:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorS View Post

My question appears to heve been overlooked so I'm trying again:

Does this solve the issue of configuring the player BM for all full range speakers but no subwoofer -- problem being loss of bass content?



Thanks again -- Trevor

No, and I wouldn't expect that (LFE rerouting) to ever happen as I just don't believe it's in the design.

See here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post10716598
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post #77 of 455
6/6/07 at 3:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

No, and I wouldn't expect that (LFE rerouting) to ever happen as I just don't believe it's in the design.

See here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post10716598

Thanks very much for the reply and link -- much appreciated !
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post #78 of 455
6/6/07 at 9:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"Those could create cascading filters as we don't know the XO slopes in the Toshiba yet. Not a recommended scenario."

No "could" about it, and cascading is done intentionally all the time. A 4th-order L-R is two cascaded 2nd-order L-R's.

Sure, the safe reccommendation is don't do it, but it doesn't hurt to try.


There is no cascading done intentionally in digital Xo's in receivers at all, only in some passive networks in the speakers, but those are indeed done by design, not by chance, which is what you proposing here, and which why it's a bad idea. Sure you can try it but don't advocate it unless you're certain of the outcome which you're not.
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post #79 of 455
6/7/07 at 5:47am
OK, so whats everyone so happy about with this fix?

What does it do?

Is it allowing proper redireted bass information from the 5 channels?

or something else?

I don't have an XA2.

I assume this is for users with a sub, correct?
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post #80 of 455
6/7/07 at 10:26am
I have xA2 and an avm 20 with bass mangement ,should I use the mangement in the anthem,and what settings should i use in the player. What does 1.6 do?
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post #81 of 455
6/7/07 at 1:43pm
Subsequent to the advice from MauneyM, I have done the following:

all speakers to large in XA2.
distance is set to 1 for all speakers.
Crossover is set to 120 Hz
PCM out

Denon 3303, speakers set to small. Crossover is set to 80 Hz.
distances for speakers are set in denon not XA2
Ext. IN is set to +10 db
sub is calibrated to 80 db as are all other speakers.
sub is a paradigm servo 15, 1500 watts, 4500 dynamic, it is not anemic and quite flat.
Result using Chronicles of Riddick, superb and the setting in my amp has been reduced by about 4db for sub compared to before. The punch is awesome and no hint of bass loss anywhere.

thanks again
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post #82 of 455
6/7/07 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayray View Post

Subsequent to the advice from MauneyM, I have done the following:

all speakers to large in XA2.
distance is set to 1 for all speakers.
Crossover is set to 120 Hz
PCM out

Denon 3303, speakers set to small. Crossover is set to 80 Hz.
distances for speakers are set in denon not XA2
Ext. IN is set to +10 db
sub is calibrated to 80 db as are all other speakers.
sub is a paradigm servo 15, 1500 watts, 4500 dynamic, it is not anemic and quite flat.
Result using Chronicles of Riddick, superb and the setting in my amp has been reduced by about 4db for sub compared to before. The punch is awesome and no hint of bass loss anywhere.

I'm not familiar with your receiver and you didn't specify if you're using the XA2's analog outs, or HDMI for HD DVD audio. But if you're using the receiver for BM, there shouldn't be any issues at all. This whole thread has to do with the XA2's issue with bass management and the analog outputs for HD DVD audio.
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post #83 of 455
6/7/07 at 3:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayray View Post

Subsequent to the advice from MauneyM, I have done the following:

all speakers to large in XA2.
distance is set to 1 for all speakers.
Crossover is set to 120 Hz
PCM out

Denon 3303, speakers set to small. Crossover is set to 80 Hz.
distances for speakers are set in denon not XA2
Ext. IN is set to +10 db
sub is calibrated to 80 db as are all other speakers.
sub is a paradigm servo 15, 1500 watts, 4500 dynamic, it is not anemic and quite flat.
Result using Chronicles of Riddick, superb and the setting in my amp has been reduced by about 4db for sub compared to before. The punch is awesome and no hint of bass loss anywhere.

thanks again

Did you mean the 3300 or 3803? Either way I'm pretty certain both don't do any digitizing on the EXT. IN (even my 3805 doesn't).

Your receiver will be doing NO bass management(that includes LARGE/small settings, distance settings, crossover), it will only do 'volume control' and 'level trim'.

You will need to perform ALL BM in the XA2 if you are using the Analogue connections to the EXT. IN on your receiver. The way you have it set up now, you are only getting the LFE(.1) channel info to the sub, NONE of the redirected bass.

cheers
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post #84 of 455
6/7/07 at 3:57pm
I keep seeing speaker size setting mentioned, I see options for 5.1 and 2 channel but that's it. Where in the setup menu is that speaker size option on the XA2?
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post #85 of 455
6/7/07 at 4:06pm
others have mentioned their XA2 settings similar to what I have done. Were they using hdmi or analog. Most of the discussion here has been about the analog out. Do the receivers of other people do this differently than the Denon 3803 or 3805?
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post #86 of 455
6/7/07 at 4:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZtop View Post

I keep seeing speaker size setting mentioned, I see options for 5.1 and 2 channel but that's it. Where in the setup menu is that speaker size option on the XA2?

Select 5.1 ch -or- 2 ch and from there you'll get to the speaker options.
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post #87 of 455
6/7/07 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayray View Post

others have mentioned their XA2 settings similar to what I have done. Were they using hdmi or analog. Most of the discussion here has been about the analog out. Do the receivers of other people do this differently than the Denon 3803 or 3805?

There are only a handful of receivers that will digitize the multichannel analog input, 99% will just apply volume and level trim on the multichannel analog input.

I'm not sure what others are doing, but some may be running their mains as full range.

I'm not sure if the BM settings in the players do anything for the audio over HDMI.

cheers
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post #88 of 455
6/7/07 at 4:52pm
My 4802 wouldn't let me do it in EXT. IN.

Cheers,
TP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MACCA350 View Post

Did you mean the 3300 or 3803? Either way I'm pretty certain both don't do any digitizing on the EXT. IN (even my 3805 doesn't).

Your receiver will be doing NO bass management(that includes LARGE/small settings, distance settings, crossover), it will only do 'volume control' and 'level trim'.

You will need to perform ALL BM in the XA2 if you are using the Analogue connections to the EXT. IN on your receiver. The way you have it set up now, you are only getting the LFE(.1) channel info to the sub, NONE of the redirected bass.

cheers
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post #89 of 455
6/7/07 at 5:10pm
I just watched the Matrix trilogy the last three nights after using the posted fix. I am no longer considering toslink.
Very happy camper here.
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post #90 of 455
6/7/07 at 10:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler358 View Post

Select 5.1 ch -or- 2 ch and from there you'll get to the speaker options.

I confess to getting confused trying to follow the other thread on this so I am thankful for a new one, is the best way to get the full bass for 2 big floor speakers analog? They have powered subwoofers but I have never used them in a 2 speaker configuration. A couple of Esone 1000's if anyone knows what those are.. is the speaker model.
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